Although this says it is not available, he may still be able to make them.
This provider also can print the Epicurus/Metrodorus Herm. Although it is no longer listed, I had one printed which is 7" tall and I am happy with it.
Sounds great. I'll join in.
Thank you! The idea is to ultimately connect it to the very literal translation.
Here is what I have of book I, far from complete - clearly. I believe Bailey spent over ten years fully employed by the crown to complete his commentary and still worked on it part-time after.
Her point about American life being ill-suited to community - particularly community living is as true as it is heartbreaking.
Such living conditions as suburbia are rather inorganic and alien - working communally but living as atomized units. (One has to only look up "the father of suburbia" or something similar, to learn how putting us in little houses, preferably staring at TVs, was a top-down organized plan).
Safe cities with good infrastructure (eg Tokyo) can work well for frequently meeting with friends, but I find American cities too dirty, dangerous, and dysfunctional for a pleasant life.
That leaves me with the country, but I have learned that building new things is effectively made impossible by the existing laws and bringing in people for a community can get you federal level attention (as the Mormons and many others can also attest).
Very interesting that she had to press her editor/publishers to keep the word "pleasure" in the title - this was great!
"Among what is considered just, that which actually proves advantageous in serving the need of reciprocal engagement has the character of justice, whether it is the same for all or not. However, when someone establishes a law that fails to yield mutual advantage, that law lacks the inherent nature of justice. Even if the mutual advantage in relation to justice diminishes, any time when it still aligns with the general idea, during such instances, it is regarded as just by those who avoid confusion caused by empty words but simply look at the circumstances."
χαρακτηρα “character” ὁ χαρακτήρ–τοῦ χαρακτῆρος: mark, figure. This word is uncertain in the texts, which show χώραν εἶναι. Bailey suggests the transposition εἶναι χώραν and correction to τό ἐνέχυρον ‘pledge, security.’
Interpretation: Laws are just when they are beneficial and they are unjust when they are not beneficial. The same law may be beneficial and just in one place and time, yet not beneficial in another place and time. No ordinance or decree makes a law just, but only the fact that it results in a practical benefit.
"Whenever, without any change in circumstances, those things considered just are shown in the actions themselves not to fit with the basic idea of justice -- it is not possible that they are just. With change in circumstances, when it would not be beneficial for the same things to be considered just -- then in that case they were just when it was beneficial for the interaction of fellow-citizens with each other yet later, when it was not beneficial, they were not just."
μη αρμοττοντα Єιc την προληψιν “not corresponding with the general idea” not fitting with the basic grasp.
ChatGPT interpretation: Justice is inherently contingent upon the alignment between circumstances and the principles upheld. Should the actions themselves reveal an incongruity with the fundamental ideals of justice, it becomes untenable to deem them just. As circumstances evolve, and the continued application of those same actions ceases to be advantageous, their justness in facilitating harmonious interactions among fellow citizens becomes obsolete, rendering them unjust.
ChatGPT translation: "Where, when there have been no new occurrences of the matters at hand, it appeared that they do not conform to the predetermined just actions; these were not just. But where, with new occurrences of the matters, the same actions were no longer advantageous, at that time they were just when they served the interaction among fellow citizens. However, later they were no longer just when they were no longer beneficial."
Hello Don,
In response to Elli, you said.
I'm not saying I disagree with the sentiment you're expressing, but I'm not seeing how you get from <τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας> to "those enjoyments that lie out of limits". Just trying to learn and understand.
I know we are always walking a line between translation and interpretation, but I am inclined to agree with your sentiment here! It seems to me "we do not mean (the... pleasures of) languishing in retirement" or something similar gets the idea in mind.
GPT "When, therefore, we say that pleasure is the ultimate goal, we do not refer to the pleasures of the profligate or those derived from indulgence."
"...a Greek Man first dared to raise his mortal eyes in opposition
and he was first to resist in opposition-
whom neither the Reputation of the gods nor Thunderbolts nor the Sky
with its menacing roar restrained but even more stirred up in him
the sharp power of the mind- so that He desired
to be the first to break off the locked bolts of nature’s doors." DRN 1.66-71
Sounds very vigorous and active indeed! As you allude to, his output of books and maintenance of a community is a testament to much activity.
Hello Don,
What about taking the second τὰς back to τὰς ἡδονὰς?
Granted, I'm just eyeballing it, so I should take some time to give it closer attention, but I'm reading the second τὰς as a reference back to τὰς ἡδονὰς, with the ἡδονὰς understood, so taken together 'the pleasures of profligates or the [pleasures] lying in consumption.'
"He who best organizes against his lack of confidence regarding the outside world is he who fully arranges what he can as familiar and, what he cannot, at least not as foreign - but in regards to all those things which he is not even able to do this, he makes himself estranged and expels what is beneficial to expel."
Oἱ ὁμόφυλοι (those like ourselves) are our friends with whom we interact for mutual benefit, oἱ οὐκ ἀλλόφυλοι (those who are not alien) are the general public with whom we interact for our own benefit, and oἱ ἀνεπίμεικτοι (those who are estranged) are people who may cause us harm and with whom we refuse to interact.
ανЄπιμЄικτοc–ἀνεπίμεικτος–ἀνεπίμεικτον “unmixed” without contact. A rare word which Plutarch also uses, saying the Pythian priestess has τὸν βίον ὅλως ἀνεπίμικτον ἀλλοδαπαῖς ὁμιλίαις: a life without contact with others, a life free from all association with strangers.
I am not committed to this translation. I would love to remove "in regards to" but I'm not sure how.
Yes I agree TauPhi, Hans Ørberg's PER SE ILLVSTRATA series is very helpful and also extremely fun. I love that his commitment to making everything in Latin extended to the copyright page.
It always perplexed me how so many texts intended for new readers.... do not mark the long vowels! If I had started with Ørberg and not Wheelock, I would have saved so much time that I spent looking constantly at a dictionary just to see the vowel length.
All who have the ability to arrange for themselves the greatest security from those who live around them live most pleasantly with each other because they have the most consistent assurance. Also, having received a complete friendship,
they do not morn the prior demise of who has past as though it is a cause for regret.
το βЄβαιοτατον πιcτωμα “the most certain guarantee” we live pleasantly with each other both because of the practical benefits of communal living and having a shared understanding of natural science.
πληρЄcτατην “fullest” πληρέστερος–πληρεστάτη–πληρέστατον: most complete, superlative of πλήρης–πλήρης–πλήρες: full, filled; satisfied. οικЄιοτητα “familiarity” ἡ οἰκειότης–τῆς οἰκειότητος: co-living, connection, friendship, intimacy.
Up for any critiques, particularly regarding my rendering of απολαβοντЄc.
Great stuff all around guys!
Don, I agree, Restored Classical pronunciation is the way to go, hearing "chaylee" for CAELI will always sound exotic to me!
How much to emphasize the meter is far less clear to me. With the three first recitations we have above, I can sympathize with Cassius' concern that there is a tendency for people reciting Latin poetry to be somewhat slavish in their relationship with the meter. Ranieri is more "natural / conversational" sounding but still seems to me to be more focused on the meter. PolyMathy's performance seems right on the mark - fully bringing out the meter, but not sacrificing thematic focus. I am not seeing any DRN on his youtube page however.
Thank you for your kind encouragement! There are some very good recitations of Lucretius around, but I love it too much not to add more. I just found that Zoom lets me record like this, so I read the intro as a test/starter. This can be read in many different ways. I also made a few mistakes.
That is great! Have we found "SFOTSE" being used in the Roman period? Seneca was popular, and it became a well known phrase. The Romans really DID make every common saying into an acronym, so perhaps even the use of the acronym is ancient. This pendant (https://etsy.me/33JADwQ) has the full, classic "Sic fac omnia tamquam spectet Epicurus." Thank you for sharing. SFOTSE!
That really sounds nice. I suppose I may not be doing too well in supporting the Fact that Epicureanism is definitely not a cult, but... the more busts the better... right?
Great podcast! It is often suggested that we could think of the senses as "honest witnesses" of the outside world and our brain as the judge sitting inside the courtroom. Sceptics do not trust the witnesses, Epicureans do trust the witnesses. An Epicurean understands that the witnesses (i.e. the senses) honestly report to him what they experienced, but what they experienced may not totally correspond to what actually happened. The larger number of (honest) witnesses the Epicurean judge has, the more accurate his impression of reality will be.
If you think the honest witnesses are liars you will have no ability to find out the truth, if you think the honest witnesses are completely accurate you will have a false impression of the truth -- if you understand the witnesses are honest, but flawed, you can increase your accuracy by generalizing the testimony of the witnesses.
Many amusing things can be said about the Thyrsus (DRN 1.923). Many amusing things can be done with the Thyrsus. I use mine mostly to hit people who try to distract me from studying Epicurus.
