Anyone want to suggest an edition that is both readable and has line numbers?
This is readable and has line numbers. The pages are a little thin, but they do hold up to writing and highlighting: Link
The section you underlined is 27d/28a.
Posts by Bryan
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The inclusion of all void and all space as something everlasting makes sense and is consistent with Epikouros, who says that only the (1) void and (2) atoms are whole, unchanging, natures. The Whole is everlasting, but always changing.
10.40 "But if a location did not exist, which we call 'void,' 'space,' and 'intangible nature' – bodies would not have anywhere to be, or [anything] through which they move: just as they are seen moving, beyond these, nothing at all is able to be conceived (either comprehensibly or analogously to the comprehensible) as being apprehended according to whole natures, and not as what are called the 'symptoms' or 'properties' of these."
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After Critias' fun story of proto-Athens defeating Atlantis' eastern advancement, Timaeus sets up the distinction between (1) what always is, vs. (2) what is always becoming. He says the craftsman looked to (1) what always is as a model to form our single kosmos, which is in the realm of (2) what is always becoming. Only the realm of (1) what always is has any certainty, and therefore when discussing our Earthly realm of (2) what is always becoming, we need to be content with probabilities.
For Epíkouros the closest we have to a realm of (1) what always is, is the whole natures (ὅλαι φύσεις) of the atoms and the void, and the realm of (2) always becoming corresponds somewhat with compounds and their emergent qualities.
Epíkouros agrees with Plato in the way that he speaks with certainty about (1) what always is, and also agrees that we must be content with not having complete certainty about (2) what is always becoming, i.e., all the movements and interactions of all compounds (as it highlighted in his Letter to Pythocles).
Later on Plato includes a third aspect, the (3) Receptacle / Neutral Base. From this angle we have:
(1) What always is, after which all is molded, ("father")
(2) What always becomes, our realm of sensation, ("offspring")
(3) The receptacle, or what everything comes to be in, ("mother")
Plato says the receptacle "is modified, shaped and reshaped by the things that enter it," and he compares it to a neutral base perfumers use.
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eternal and enduring
Cassius you brought up last Wednesday how Epikouros uses these terms. Here is the distinction as far as I understand it.
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light has mass while the elementary particle which makes up light, the photon has a nominal rest mass of zero
Thank you Matin. Even if photons are only considered "massless" when they are not moving — Given, in the real world, light is never not moving, why should we follow Einstein and take the basis of our considerations something that does not exist: "massless and motionless elementary particles of light"?
Although from a theoretical perspective, Einstein's theories and quantum mechanics have replaced Newton's theory of gravity/mechanics, in actual practice, Newton's theory is still far more often applied than the newer theories because Newton's mechanics is accurate enough and more efficient to use for problems which are within its limits.
Does not this mean there is a separation between our theory and our practice? If Newton works in the real world, perhaps he is mostly all we need.
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Throwing in this clear and simple quote from Epikouros against determinists:
"…While you all simultaneously make everything have its cause [of movement] from its former movement and turn reasoning upside down..."
…ἅμα ποιοῦντες πάντ' ἀ[πὸ] τῆς προτέρας κ̣ινήσε̣[ω]ς τὴν αἰτίαν ἔχειν καὶ π̣ε̣ρικάτω τρέ̣ποντες τὸν λόγον…
Book 25, P.Herc. 1420 col. 4 (fr. B 12)
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Along these lines, I have been thinking that a "spa day" is mostly a mindset, and it can be most days!
An electric kettle heats up water to boiling in a minute, add the hot water into a little tub, and soak your feet wherever you are.
Automatic back and foot massagers are a cheap investment and feel great.
Applying body oil after the shower is good for the skin and makes it feel more comfortable to wear.
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What is highlighted above is correct, but, although I knew it was not giving a BC date, I did think the section highlighted below was giving an Attic date in combination with the eponymos Archon year, but it was stichometry. Thanks Don!
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Thank you. Yes, that gets us much closer!
So the Attic numeric system used for the number of lines (where Δ=10, H=100, Γ=500, X=1000) is different from "Greek" system used for the book numbers (where Γ=3, Δ=4, H=8, X=600), presumably because the number of lines was a much larger number. But the system used for the book numbers could accommodate the high line numbers as well. It seems a bit odd to use two systems right next to each other.
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3,800 Stiques***
Ἐπικούρου Περὶ Φύσεως ΙΔ, Χ̣ΧΧ̣ΓΗΗΗΗ ἐ̣πὶ Κλ̣[εάρ]χ̣ο.
I do not understand how ΧXXΓΗΗΗΗ is 3,800.
I know in some systems, X = 600, so does XXX = 1800?
Ἐ̣[π]ικούρου Περὶ Φύσεως ΙΕ ΧΧΧΗΗ ἐ̣π̣ὶ [Ἡ]γ̣εμάχου
While, for book 15, we have: ΧΧΧΗΗ, which is apparently 3,200 lines? -
How would we get evidence how many were printed and who funded the printing? It is just odd so many are still around!
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To the extent that Epíkouros' Book Fourteen On Nature is not a direct refutation of sections of Plato's Timaeus, it certainly presupposes familiarity with the material. Before we go through this in the upcoming Wednesday meetings, ideally, we should develop the same common ground.
There are several good audiobook versions on YouTube. Please find your favorite reader and listen to it at 0.80 speed until you become as infuriated with Plato's math-magic as Epíkouros is in Book Fourteen.
"This is also desirable: that one who is entirely afflicted by such over-questionings has a kind of remedy – through which it is possible that a simple condition [of life, focused] in the observation of nature will set free their innate trouble."
--Epíkouros, Peri Phýseōs, Book 14, P.Herc. 1148 col. 24
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...it also had Cardinal de Polignac, who frequented more out of taste for the disciples of Epicurus , than for the doctrine of their master...
I know almost nothing about Polignac's Anti-Lucretius, but it must have been very widely published in its day—because copies of it from the 1700s are cheap (sometimes as low as €20), particularly compared to copies of Lucretius from the same period.
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I will throw this in:
"For the one who is accomplished, this is the most important thing produced by total accuracy: to be able to quickly use one's attention with each thing referenced by simple component principles and statements"
-- Epikouros D.L. 10.36bThe "the one who is accomplished," that is, a student who has gone through all the material is a fun word: ὁ τετελεσιουργημένος,"te-te-le-si-our-gē-me-nos" (or tetelesiourgēmenē for a woman).
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Book 25 also has "κατα̣κ[οσ]μ̣ουμέ̣νη̣ς" (P.Herc. 1191 fr. 123)
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Light pushes and light has weight. Light has mass.
We can make innumerable mathematical models that work for (1) light having mass, (2) light not having mass, or even (3) light not existing at all. The idea that light is massless will be thrown away eventually along with the rest of Einstein's magic tricks.
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The residency laws of Athens were written to prevent the very thing Epikouros forced, which was ensuring that the estate was managed by a citizen of Mytilene (Hermarkhos)
Great Point!!
I know Míthrēs was the minister of Lysimachos, and that Epikouros helped Míthrēs with a letter campaign of sorts regarding Metrodorus assisting him to get out of prison. Do we know more?
If Míthrēs was imprisoned in the Peiraeus it was probably under the orders of the Antigonid regime. It seems probable Míthrēs was just a messenger in-between the disagreement between Demetrios in Athens and Lysimachos in the east.
There is a bit of circumstantial evidence that Epikouros was favorable to the Antigonid regime, to the extent possible. We know, at least, that Epikouros stayed in the east when Cassander and Ptolemy controlled Athens, but moved there within a year of the Antigonids taking control.
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This topic came up Wednesday night when we were discussing that there doesn't seem to be a lot of detailed information on our usual core pages about the political situation in Athens during the specific years that Epicurus was alive.
I do want to recommend Plutarch's Life of Demetrius Poliorcetes (link), which does recount many of the top news stories from 305 to 283 BC, which was during Epikouros' prime. (link for Loeb).
Staggeringly wealthy celebrity women...
Worship of a living man as a god in Athens...
"Soapgate," i.e., Leadership of Athens spending millions of dollars of tax payer money (Silver value: ~$5.7 million. Labor value: ~$300 million) on imported toiletries for a group elite prostitutes...
Skyscraper war-machines on wheels (10 stories high)...
etc. and those are just the early years!
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It was less wrong than the alternative theory of rays from us interacting with the external works and reporting back to us.
Including this quote here, where we have [1] eyes made for a specific purpose (as opposed to mutating and finding a use) and [2] eyes generating light rays (as opposed to simply receiving external information).
Plato, Timaeus [45B-C] "The first of the organs fabricated were light-bearing eyes which they fixed in place for the following reason: they contrived to create a body from fire which does not burn but provides a gentle light kindred to the light of each day. So they caused the pure fire within us which is brother of this light of day, to flow through the eyes, and they compressed the whole eye, but especially the centre, to be smooth and dense, so as to retain all the coarser fire, and filter through only this kind of pure fire by itself. Then if ever there is daylight surrounding this stream of vision, like meets with like, joins together and establishes a single kindred body along a straight line from the eyes to wherever the stream from within is obstructed by the outside objects on which it impinges."
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with a belief in an elusive incorporeal power pervades the body in order to emphasize asceticism, honesty, and moral training
In Catholic/Christian thinking, "honesty" is something that a person should extend to everyone else. It seems this idea (that an "honest" person is honest to everyone), mostly survives as an expectation for the general modern individual.
Of course, other groups (with a social strategy) see honesty as something that should be extended only within their group -- and they see extending honesty beyond their group as foolish and harmful.
As Epicureans, we each organize our life to spend most of our time among our in-group -- and an Epicurean has very high incentives to be honest with a friend in all cases. Still, I cannot see why an Epicurean would be honest in all cases with someone who is not a friend (particularly if being honest may cause consequence, or if being dishonest may cause benefit).
