Posts by Don

Right. We have access to digitized papyri and other resources, but they're not all going to be translated (unfortunately).

BUT we can still verify scholars' readings and, with the help of people like Bryan and Eikadistes , get translations literally right from the source. This is another incentive for *everyone* having at least a rudimentary understanding of the ancient Greek, at least the alphabet (and paleography... And grammar... And... And... And ).

That second question is a good one, and would have to be answered on a case by case basis. Hopefully, books and papers and websites cite what translation they're using or if it's original.

LOL. None of this is easy. And taking translations at face value and without question is fraught with pitfalls!

Quote from Titus

The idea of fulfilling natural and necessary needs while sitting in a cave by drinking water and eating bread is a state of idealized sanctification. While it focuses on the relatively low hardware requirements concerning human material needs, it ignores all the other variables to our lives in our ever-changing material conditions.

Quote from Cassius

While there are definitely times and places in world history where sitting in a cave and subsisting on bread and water would be exactly the right course of conduct, doing as some do and setting up such states of existence as not only desirable, but the highest life desirable for a human being, would be better described in my view as "supremely stupid."

I feel the urge to address the "cave and bread" metaphor as it raises its head yet again. This is a favorite metaphor of Cassius's to illustrate the popular but misguided conception of Epicurean philosophy as ONLY satisfying the "natural and necessary" desires. As I understand it, the "cave" signifies the idea that Epicurus walled himself off from the world in the Garden, like some kind of medieval anchorite:

Anchorites: Medieval Women And Men Walled Up Alive

During the Middle Ages, thousands of women and men chose to be walled up alive. Read on to discover why anchorites were willingly immured.

www.thecollector.com

The popular "cave" isolation idea is simply wrong. The Garden, as I hope I've shown in my impromptu presentation and longer article available on the forum, wasn't isolated from Athenian society. The primary reason Epicurus taught in the Garden is that, as I understand, it was private property and he could do what he wanted there. The gymnasiarchs and others had no control or authority over what he taught there. It was what we would call "a safe space." What happens in the Garden stays in the Garden, to riff on a Vegas ad campaign. But that doesn't mean it was "cut off" or walled off from society (insert disgruntled frustrated noise here)... but I digress.

The "bread" is taken as literal instructions on how to live from the Letter to Menoikeus and other snippets taken out of context. I addressed the "maza (barley bread or porridge) and spring water" in my Menoikeus commentary to my satisfaction at least... but I am but a lone voice crying in the wilderness... (insert disgruntled frustrated noise here)

To take one random example of this conception, here's one of the first results in a web search on [Epicurus live on bread]

https://classicalwisdom.com/people/philosophers/epicurus-proto-scientist-secular-saint-and-sophisticated-hedonist/

Quote

Just as important to the Epicurean ethic is a reduction of desires. If we want less, we will be happy with less. The Epicurean path to happiness is not a result of an excess of external pleasures or material goods. Live simply, and without an excess of wealth or luxury, says Epicurus, and with that proclamation he very well may lay claim to the title of “first western minimalist!” Moderation, temperance, and cheerfulness are Epicurean virtues; unbridled luxury and feverish desire Epicurean vices.

From my readings, Epicurus does want us to look at our desires practically and with discretion. This website's "If we want less, we will be happy with less" is *almost* right, in my opinion. I would expand that to say "In times of want, we will be happy with less because we understand that we don't require - it is not a necessity - to have luxuries or even variety in all circumstances if we recognize the pleasure right in front of us. However, if we have the opportunity to partake of luxuries and variety with a minimum of stress, enjoy them! But don't think you *need* them to have a sense of well-being in your life." But that's a little wordy for a breezy podcast website!

I realize the "cave and bread and water" metaphor is a convenient shorthand for this on-going, perpetual, bang-one's-head-against-the-wall frustration with most/many popular and academic takes on Epicurus and his school and philosophy. That is exactly one of the reasons I like and recommend Dr. Emily Austin's Living for Pleasure so highly! I think she got it exactly right...but again... voice, Wilderness, (insert disgruntled frustrated noise here).

Quote

Nonetheless, numerous editions of Philodemus’ works, especially early ones, are unreliable.

I believe she's referring to one's from the 1800's and early 1900's. There's quite a few on Internet Archive.

Quote

Many were not based on a reading of the papyri themselves, but rather on the disegni, which are frequently wrong, and this led editors to be bolder about changing the texts presented in these copies, filling in gaps, and interpreting the results than they might have been had they read the papyri instead.

And this is exactly why those digitized papyri online are SO valuable. We all have access unimagined by earlier authors/scholars right at our fingertips.

Quote from Cassius

As we mentioned tonight in our Wednesday discussion, Diogenes Laertius says that according to Epicurus or the Epicureans:

[118] And even if the wise man be put on the rack, he is happy.

So next week as we continue to discuss these issues we will want to revisit whether we agree with Cicero's expecting that happiness for an Epicurean is something that is always under our control.

Hicks: Even on the rack the wise man is happy.

Yonge: That even if the wise man were to be put to the torture, he would still be happy.

It's important to remember that the original says εὐδαίμονα not "happy." There's a different connotation! It's not "Happy, ha ha" to my understanding. It's more content, well-being, "I did what I can do" satisfaction with life so to speak.

Trivia: στρεβλωθῇ means "stretch on the wheel or rack, to rack, torture, applied to slaves for the purpose of extracting evidence"

Hicks: When on the rack, however, he will give vent to cries and groans.

Yonge: Nor will he groan and howl when he is put to the torture.

So. will the σοφός groan or not?

The original text runs:

[118] κἂν στρεβλωθῇ δ᾽ ὁ σοφός, εἶναι αὐτὸν εὐδαίμονα, [μόνον τε χάριν ἕξειν τὸν σοφόν, καὶ ἐπὶ φίλοις καὶ παροῦσι καὶ ἀποῦσιν ὁμοίως διά τε λόγου184 <καὶ διὰ πράξεως>. ὅτε μέντοι στρεβλοῦται, ἔνθα καὶ μύζει καὶ οἰμώζει.

ὅτε μέντοι στρεβλοῦται, ἔνθα καὶ μύζει καὶ οἰμώζει. There doesn't appear to be a "nor" here:

ὅτε when

μέντοι indeed, however, to be sure

ἔνθα when

μύζει I. (he) murmurs with closed lips, mutters, moans.

(και) οἰμώζει (and) wails aloud, laments

So, Hicks seems to have the upper hand here. This also makes sense in the light of the sage being more affected by the emotions but also "having a sense of well-being" under torture.

Those two Vatican Sayings take on an interesting context with today being Valentine's Day

Thanks, Nate. I was completely unaware of this link. Just found online:

Quote from Cassius

Of course it's easy for anyone to post their own articles at substack

Which brings up an interesting question: Should more of us be posting to substack to increase the epicurean content "outside our Garden"? Or should we use Cassius' new outlet to simply expand the outlet of voices?

Some Substackers post daily! That amazes me. Cassius committing to a regular bi-weekly level of content is daunting!! Cassius has been doing weekly podcast releases for years. His posting a lengthy Substack article biweekly deserves ΚΥΔΟΣ (kudos)! I barely get a quarterly newsletter out at work!!

I read the new article, too. ΚΥΔΟΣ for that as well! Very impressive and highly referenced with quotes. Well done!!

I still really want to break down my Menoikeus material into an actual "study guide" format with maybe less language-specific and more topical "lessons"... but that will, of course, include delving into the actual meanings of key words.

Quote from Cassius

Oh I should be very clear! It is set to be a free account so there is no fee for the subscription required!

Oh! LOL! I wasn't going to pay for it. Now it's just in my feed on Substack! Looking forward to reading it.

PS... Would you consider "guest" articles in the future? Just asking for a friend

Subscribed.

Quote from DavidN

Death being a multifaceted event I find it to be intellectually dishonest for anyone truly interested in philosophy to take the stance that Epicurus writing a will would be hypocritical.

There's a big difference between the process of "dying" and the "state" of "being dead." Epicurus can take pleasure in planning for his legacy while at thesame time being fully aware that his plans may not be followed. He takes pleasure in doing what he is capable of doing.

Quote from Bryan

Giuseppe Casanova version is a bit more filled out

And then you have to ask... Who's closer to the reality of the physical scroll? Does one have better eyesight than the other? Is one more wishful thinking than the other?

The column in question as sketched in the early 1800s. Trying to get something out of line 21 seems well nigh impossible to me:

FYI

PN Search

I didn't realize how that link would display. This is a link to Philodemus's works at Papyri.info.

Much of the library still lies unexcavated.

I've read one theory that says there could be a whole Latin section of the library that remains to be found since it was a custom in libraries then to have a Greek collection and a Latin collection. Although, from my perspective, the Villa was a private collection so it doesn't necessarily have to follow that pattern.

But the possibilities of what remains untranslated and even undiscovered - not to mention what was burned and discarded before they knew what they had! - boggle the mind.

Just to be clear, I certainly meant no disrespect! "They" was just to delineate this forum from the other platform.

Having more participants on both platforms would be a good thing from my perspective.

And, to repeat, I very much appreciate some of the resources posted by and coming from SoFE members. Heck, I subscribe to the newsletter myself.

Sensation, it appears, is literally touch: atoms touching the human body. That seems to serve for sensation, thought, memory, etc.

Is that what you're getting?

Quote from Cassius

death is total absence of *awareness* of motion.

This got me thinking: According to Epicurean philosophy then, what IS awareness? If death is the cessation of sensation, what IS sensation?

Quote from Cassius

Of course we are presumably talking about small bodies here rather than atoms directly.

It seems to me those "small bodies" are exactly atoms.

I think I see where you're going with the rest of that response. Let me think about it and get back to you.