Posts by Don

Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, BOOK I, Prologue

In the Italian school the order of succession is as follows: first Pherecydes, next Pythagoras, next his son Telauges, then Xenophanes, Parmenides,11 Zeno of Elea, Leucippus, Democritus, who had many pupils, in particular Nausiphanes [and Naucydes], who were teachers of Epicurus.

...

ethics, as we have said, started with Socrates; while dialectic goes as far back as Zeno of Elea. In ethics there have been ten schools: the Academic, the Cyrenaic, the Elian, the Megarian, the Cynic, the Eretrian, the Dialectic, the Peripatetic, the Stoic, and the Epicurean.

Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, BOOK IX, Chapter 5. ZENO OF ELEA

Aristotle says that Zeno was the inventor of dialectic, as Empedocles was of rhetoric

Quote from Cassius

So the proper characterization of Zeno is despoiler.or some similar synonym....

It appears πολυφθόρος can mean either "utterly destroyed or ruined" (taken in the passive sense) or "destroying many, fraught with death or ruin"

Quote from Cassius

I wonder if we should not consider the Eleatics to be under the umbrella of the "Logicians" in this passage.

DL10.8: the Dialecticians despoilers... καὶ τοὺς διαλεκτικοὺς πολυφθόρους, ...

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=dialektikou%5Cs&la=greek&can=dialektikou%5Cs0&prior=tou%5Cs&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0257:book=10:chapter=1&i=1#lexicon

"ἡ διαλεκτική (sc. τέχνη) dialectic, discussion by question and answer, invented by Zeno of Elea"

Orchestral:

Guitar:

Quote from Robert

So...maybe time to get started on the Epicurean songbook!

I'll offer my attempt at an Epicurean hymn from 3(!) years ago, sung to the tune of "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing" which I originally heard while attending a Unitarian Universalist church:

Thanks, Joshua . I'd also include p.73 in that.

I continue to stand by my insistence that "bread and water" referred not to ascetism but to ordinary, everyday experience. Take pleasure in the quotidian. When luxury is available, take pleasure in that, too. Emily Austin gets it right, in my opinion.

Luke Ranieri included this in his latest newsletter:

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As for Latin and Greek, here is a new Ancient Greek idiomatic expression I found while perusing LSJ:

ἐπ’ αὐτὸν ἥκεις τὸν βατῆρα τῆς θύρᾱς "you arrived right on the threshold of the door" (attributed to Attic comic playwright Amipsias)

It's Latin equivalent is tetigistī acū "you have touched it with a needle" (first attested by comic playwright Plautus), and these both mean "you hit the nail on the head."

Polyenphysiszodeism^TM

Well played, Joshua .

Quote from Robert

Thank you for the recommendation! I did have Living for Pleasure on my list; I'm now moving it up in the queue. Excited to start reading it.

I describe it as erudite but conversational. It's very approachable but comes with a deep understanding of Epicurus's philosophy. Hope you enjoy.

Her article "Are the Modern Stoics Really Epicureans?" is worth a read, too!

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As a more controversial point, I suspect that many Modern Stoics are already Epicureans, at least by the standards of the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius. Let me explain...

If you haven't read Emily Austin's book, Living for Pleasure, highly recommend that one for you to add in your "self-conducted crash course" Great phrase, by the way. Her book is by far my personal favorite for an introduction to the philosophy.

Maybe he died the year he would have turned 72 but it was before his birthday that year?

FYI

Fish oil supplements may cause harm, study finds. ‘Is it time to dump them?’ expert asks | CNN

www.cnn.com

One thing to keep in mind, from my perspective, in all this is that αἵρεσις (hairesis) and φεύγω (pheugo) are not necessarily meant to be opposites or antonyms of each other. They describe two different actions that can be taken in relation to desires and courses of action.

αἵρεσις gets at the conscious decision to "choose" a course of action oneself as opposed to flipping a coin or letting chance take its course. I think this is why it came to be used for "heresy" - the heretic had a chance to make the "right" choice and didn't

φεύγω gets at the urgency of jettisoning or getting away from or leaving behind, or "setting one free" if you will, from beliefs or ideas or desires that will, in the long run, be detrimental to one's eudaimonia and the living of a good life. The opposite semantic field in relation to φεύγω is to chase or pursue.

Quote from Julia

My commentary:
The connotation of "setting oneself free" is exactly what I miss in words like "to reject / rejection" and also "to avoid / avoidance" (which I had initially chosen myself). It is, in my mind, somewhat present in "evade" (which I chose after). It is strongly present, but also strongly obscured in the modern English "to flee / flight". To translate the Epicurean sense of φεύγω (pheugo), "setting oneself free" might actually be the best I've seen so far. It goes along well with the associations of fears and addictions, it has commitment, agency, and a certain urgency without the necessary connotation of immediate danger to life and limb. If I set myself free of something, I also reject it. If I set myself free of what haunts me, I evade it.

This translation seems to have it all!

I think I like that direction... Although it's not the single word you were looking for initially.

I'll grant you that you have to find English translations that speak to you for the Greek words Epicurus used (or the Latin ones Lucretius used). But I also maintain translation can obfuscate the original meaning, so we all need to be careful.

Quote from Cassius

"fleeing" is not a normally something an Epicurus would do) mainly in the context of coming up with words that are generally useful.

Well, the words he used are φυγή (noun) and φεύγω (verb). Here are the dictionary entries for each, so I encourage everyone to dig into the connotations of each and decide for themselves. Maybe "flee" isn't the best, but I need something with more agency than "avoid":

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, φυ^γή

Woodhouse, S. C. (1910) English–Greek Dictionary: A Vocabulary of the Attic Language‎[1], London: Routledge & Kegan Paul Limited.
avoidance
banishment
disappearance
escape
exile
flight
outlawry
proscription
refusal
rejection
repudiation
stampede
transportation

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, φεύγω

Antonyms
(antonym(s) of “to flee, be accused”): διώκω (diṓkō, “to pursue, accuse”)

Related to Latin fugio:

fugio - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

PD25 If at all critical times you do not connect each of your actions to the natural goal of life, but instead turn too soon to some other kind of goal in thinking whether to avoid or pursue something, then your thoughts and your actions will not be in harmony.

εἰ μὴ παρὰ πάντα καιρὸν ἐπανοίσεις ἕκαστον τῶν πραττομένων ἐπὶ τὸ τέλος τῆς φύσεως, ἀλλὰ προκαταστρέψεις εἴτε φυγὴν εἴτε δίωξιν ποιούμενος εἰς ἄλλο τι, οὐκ ἔσονταί σοι τοῖς λόγοις αἱ πράξεις ἀκόλουθοι.

PD25 literally uses εἴτε φυγὴν εἴτε δίωξιν which are the antonyms of each other mentioned above: flee/escape from and pursue/chase. Saint-Andre chooses to use the traditional "avoid" but that doesn't translate the dichotomy of φυγὴν and δίωξιν.

Quote from Cassius

Just gotta say to close the night, I don't like the sound or connotations of "flee" at all!

I am curious to read why.

Take your pick:

1. (intransitive) to flee, run off, go a certain direction with haste (often with prepositions)
2. (transitive) to flee, escape, avoid, get away from (danger or trouble)
3. (transitive or intransitive) to leave the country, go into exile
   1. (intransitive) to be exiled, banished, driven out of the country [with ὑπό (hupó, + genitive) ‘by someone’]
   2. (intransitive, present and imperfect) to be in exile, live in banishment
4. (perfect) to have escaped, be safe from quotations ▼

I **much** prefer "flee" to "avoid". There's nothing wrong with fleeing a dangerous situation, which is what one should literally do when confronting empty desires, anxiety-producing ideas, harmful beliefs, and so on. Flee from them. Escape from them. Get away from them. There's nothing wrong with a strategic retreat. There's nothing wrong with fleeing from or escaping from a city under siege. Avoiding, to me, makes it sound like you're stepping around external threats. The threats are coming from inside the house - unsound beliefs, harmful ideas, empty desires, anxieties, and so on. Leave them behind and flee from them, get as much distance from them as possible.

Quote from Julia

In addition, it seems like pretty much each of these meanings can be employed figuratively, which causes a little tree of meanings to grow from both words

Quote from Godfrey

This is an excellent case study in the difficulties of translation

LOL! Welcome to the wonderful world of translation!

To get an idea of what this would look like in a text some might be familiar with, here is a page from Pride and Prejudice:

Quote from Godfrey

Am I correct in understanding that, based on the above, a proper English replacement for choose/avoid would be pursue/flee?

If so, it's much more action-packed

Technically, it's not "pursue" ... Which is weird. αίρεση is more take deliberately or choose deliberately, rather than let chance choose for you. But given the squishy nature of English, you could conceivably use "pursue" and "flee" if you wanna.