Posts by Don

Quote from Cassius

(2) whether it is appropriate to consider the mind as generating pleasure and pain. I am in general agreement with Don's post, but I think how we choose to use our minds does generate pleasure or pain.

I'm rethinking that a little, in the sense of "what does generate mean?" Feelings, I suppose, do arise from our minds, so maybe "generate" in some sense is correct.

Quote from Cassius

Also, while I think it is very reasonable and justifiable to divide all feelings between pleasure and pain, and to insist that there is no neutral state, I am not prepared to say that Epicurus' categorization plan is the only one that can be proposed and discussed. Cicero and Plato have a different definition of pleasure than does Epicurus, and they call absence of stimulation 'neutral.'

Anything can certainly be proposed and discussed. The question, to me, is "Does the idea correlate to reality or not?" Epicurus' categorization, to my current understanding, correlates to reality while Cicero, Plato, "St." Paul, etc. do not. I think some ideas in Buddhism are interesting, but overall it has too much other baggage. But that was why I considered myself a Buddhist for a number of years. It made the most sense to me and conformed to my understanding of reality at the time in contrast to all the other philosophies and religions I had studied up to that point. Then I discovered Epicurus.

Cicero and Plato redefine pleasure for their own purposes, but Epicurus' all-encompassing concept of pleasure and pain just makes sense to me. Could he have chosen a "better" word than pleasure? Maybe? But he was going for maximum impact. He was engaging in philosophical battle with the other schools, and fighting on the same field with them. He engaged with those ideas, took a hold of them, and used the terms of the day to explain reality better than the other schools.

Quote from Rolf

it is normal to feel aches, pains, and other discomforts when focusing on the body?

I would even leave off that last "when focusing..." It is normal - natural - to feel aches, pains, etc as it is to feel pleasure.

Quote from Rolf

If a body without pain and an untroubled mind if the essential foundation, I’m unsure if I’ll ever reach such a state. This supposed “healthy functioning body, free from pain” sounds almost mythical to me. Do people really feel this way, beyond some scattered moments?

An untroubled mind (ataraxia) to me - and this may be just me - is about doing away with unnecessary fears, anxieties, that clog up our experience of the world as it is. Dispelling those fears and anxieties provides a base of operations from which to experience life. I'm thinking primarily of the fear of death, of divine retribution, of fate, and so on. I'm still working through some of these myself! It's not some numbness that comes over someone, it's a confidence in one's place in the universe and ones agency in it.

I'm still working on aponia, but it doesn't -again, to me - mean total absence of pain. It's being in a body that does it's thing without effort, without struggle, and there are degrees of this - again, to my understanding. Like I said, I'm still working on this!

I agree with Cassius . Keep asking great questions! This really helps me question my own positions and to ask myself again some of these same things. Enjoying the conversation!!

Quote from Rolf

When I'm in a "neutral state" - not sick, injured, etc. - and I focus on my body's senses, I pretty much always notice some kind of ache, tenseness, stomach pain, itchiness, or some other uncomfortable feeling that I'm generally able to ignore when I'm not not fixating on it.

That's simply because you're a mortal being in a material world. I have come to the conviction, using Epicurus's philosophy as jumping off point, that there is no neutral state. If you are alive, you're feeling, sensing sensations both within and around your body and mind. Even without the findings of modern neuroscience, I have no problem thinking of Epicurus thinking through this and coming up to a similar conclusion:

• living = reacting to sensations
• we are always experiencing our internal and external stimuli (note: Epicurus wouldn't use these words but I have no problem thinking of him thinking parallel thoughts)
• humans can experience sensations either positively (pleasure) or negatively (pain).
• There can be no "neutral" state; that would mean we aren't feeling anything, aren't experiencing anything. We are ALWAYS feeling/experiencing pleasure OR pain. We have no choice BUT to experience as long as we are living.

It's important to remember that pathe/pathos in ancient Greek most fundamentally means "what one has experienced." Epicurus took the bold step to say there are ONLY two ways to experience the world, either as pleasure or as pain. EVERYTHING we experience, internally or externally, is either painful or pleasurable. And he encompassed the totality of human experience within those two feelings.

Now there are gradations and types of pain and of pleasure: joy, grief, anger, ecstasy, boredom, sleepiness, elation, contentment, happiness, satisfaction, rage, love, disgust, and on and on. But everything - all of those - fall into either pleasure or pain.

Quote from Cassius

Your mind should never be in neutral - it always has the capacity to generate positive feelings which are (or should be) more significant to us than those aches and pains you are speaking about.

I would disagree with Cassius 's wording. Your mind can never be in neutral. Your mind doesn't "generate" positive feelings, it experiences them before you can think about generating.

Epicurus' pain wasn't eliminated by his thoughts of his conversations with friends on his last day. He continued to feel his diseased, inflamed kidneys as searing pain. His memories allowed him to "hold his ground against" the pain as if he was drawing up his troops against the pain: ἀντιπαρετάττετο. Those memories gave him pleasure in the midst of his mortal pain, not in spite of the pain. He could be happy with his life, reliving those pleasant memories, in the midst of his pain.

Quote from Rolf

This is perhaps why I've been finding it difficult to understand and reconcile the idea that pleasure is the default state.

I don't know if "default state" is the right way of thinking about this. There is no "default" setting I don't think. The pleasure of the mind and body working well, being healthy, and having all your parts working in harmony is pleasure. BUT There is no guarantee in life that the mind and body are going to work well, that you'll be health, and that your various parts will be in harmony. You have to work at it. You can't set it to a default and just let it run. If you have that, you have everything needed to experience other pleasures. I would rather think of "a body without pain, and an untroubled mind" being the ground from which other pleasures can be more readily experienced. Granted, if we have that, it can sink into the background if we don't appreciate it... and if we neglect our body and mind, it can fall into pain, trouble, etc. There is no guaranteed default.

As far as the "feelings are two," I fall back on the modern psychological research on valence and activation. You'll see some of this on this forum if you search for circumplex or Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett, https://lisafeldmanbarrett.com/

There's also some research here:

Russell’s (1980) Circumplex Models – Psychology of Human Emotion: An Open Access Textbook

My basic understanding, both Epicurean and modern, is that if you are alive, you are feeling something. There is no neutral state. It may be intense (high activation) or mild (low activation); and there will be an unpleasantness/pleasantness dimension (valence). But you never feel neutral if you're being honest with yourself.

I'm looking at the word "meaning" itself. Wiktionary gives definition 2 as:

The purpose, value, or significance (of something) beyond the fact of that thing's existence. (the meaning of life)

People seem to want/need a "greater purpose" for their lives, or to understand the "value" of the lives, to understand the significance of their lives in the grand scheme. That search for "meaning" seems like trying to chase a mirage. There is no ultimate or supernatural or divine purpose, value, or significance to an individual's living their life over and above pursuing pleasure and avoiding pain, just like every other living creature. That's it. Now, that said, people can derive a lot of pleasure out of what are often lumped into "meaningful" acts and experiences. But I sincerely think people are fooling themselves (and more power to them) when they call that their life's purpose or meaning rather than acknowledge they're seeking pleasure. The pundits who pontificate about having a life of meaning have it backwards. Sincerely investigate what will truly bring you pleasure, and pursue that (within the limits of justice and ethical behavior Epicurus outlined). That might indeed be humanitarian causes like working in a war-torn country providing assistance, but it might not be. It might indeed be a life spent in service to people in need, but it might not be. Looking for a "grand purpose" almost seems to set people up to see themselves as inadequate in some way. "Pleasure is the highest good" seems a good antidote to that.

Quote from Rolf

Did the concept of a "meaning of life" even exist in the modern sense during Epicurus' time? And if not, why should we need it, if the ancient Epicureans got by perfectly fine without it?

That is an excellent question. Even if we can chart the appearance of the phrase "meaning of life" in the English language, how would we identify it in an ancient context.

The closest I can come off the top of my head is "meaning of life" = telos/supreme good/summum bonum. So, of that's the case, there's always been a "meaning" to life, but it seems the more modern idea is that each person is supposed to discover their own meaning? Whereas ancient-ly, the "meaning" was more generalized to humanity at large?

The universe does not "care" about us. The universe is not "looking out for us." The universe is not showing us the way or dropping hints to a "meaning" for our lives. The universe just is. We exist for a brief time in The All (ΤΟ ΠΑΝ) in our corner of this kosmos. Humans appear to have a need to feel more important than they actually are in the grand sweep of things. Now, that doesn't mean we get carte blanche to do as we will. Epicurus' philosophy gives us a grounded perspective: we really don't matter in the most ultimate sense; however, if we want our brief life to be "good," there are some general principles we can use: don't willfully harm others, seek the most pleasurable outcome, have friendships, etc.

Welcome aboard!

Quote from Godfrey

Of course there's VS41:

One must laugh and seek wisdom and tend to one's home life and use one's other goods, and always recount the pronouncements of true philosophy.

That's one of the good translations! Thanks for the reminder, Godfrey . Being the broken record, I enjoy pointing out that, in the original, the first word is indeed "laugh" γελᾶν not seek wisdom, etc. Laugh is being emphasized as the first word in the text.

Going off that article I added to the first post, it seems "respecting" death vs "taking death too seriously" are ways of expressing what I'm trying to get at. As Seneca wrote that Epicurus instructed people to "meditare mortem," we can to think or reflect upon, consider, contemplate, ponder, meditate (upon) death without it becoming an obsession, a neurosis, an overbearing fear. Acknowledge, respect it, realize it's omnipresence in our future, but get on with living.

I'm reminded of Gus in Lonesome Dove:

“You see, life in San Francisco is still just life. If you want any one thing too badly, it’s likely to turn out to be a disappointment. The only healthy way to live life is to learn to like all the little everyday things – like a sip of good whiskey in the evening, a soft bed, a glass of buttermilk, or a feisty gentleman like myself.”

and Shawshank Redemption

"I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy living or get busy dying"

That last one encapsulates the sentiment in the letter to Menoikeus.

Quote from Cassius

that's what forums are for

Quote from Cassius

"don't take death seriously," or something more like "take death very seriously and realize when you're gone you're done, but at the same time don't let it get you down."

I'll point out that Connolly says, "I think people take death too seriously." "Too seriously" to me rings of being obsessive about death or, conversely, obsessively doing everything to not think about it or talk about or acknowledge one's own mortality, to live in denial. We have to take death "seriously," but that seriousness need not be obsessive or morbid and shouldn't be fearful. Look death in the eye, say " Not today," and commit to finding the pleasure available in your life.

Quote from Cassius

I do think that Epicurus would agree that laughing is one way to make peace with the inevitable. Would he say that it's "the best" way?

There is no best way for everyone, but laughing is definitely one available component for everyone. That's why there's such a thing as dark comedy.

I couldn't find the exact source of this quote, so this may be more paraphrase than quote. There's also this article from 2019:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17949861.billy-connolly-scottish-story/

Quote

The Scots and the Irish – Connolly is of Irish stock as his surname tells you – have a deep cultural quirk of respecting death, but never taking it too seriously. Connolly will be keeping up that tradition. He’s told his wife Pamela Stephenson that when he dies he wants an epitaph in tiny writing so visitors will have to step close to his gravestone to read it. When they can finally see it, they’ll discover it says: “You’re standing on my b***s”.

Quote from Kalosyni

Another idea...

This came to me after seeing Eikadistes recent t-shirt design.

And the krater was the vase for mixing water and wine for gatherings, so, that along with the 20er moon encapsulates the gatherings on that day of the month.

I'm late to the game here, but I'd offer that philosophy - as conceived of in the ancient schools - was always meant to be lived. One chose a school (or took a more eclectic approach as I'd argue Cicero does in certain ways), and lived one's life in accordance with what one learned from one's teacher and one's school: Stoic, Peripatetic, Platonic, Skeptic, Epicurean, etc. As time went on, "religion" moved into that sphere - I'm thinking especially of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism (although some call that a philosophy - depends on the flavor I suppose), especially when those major religions got the imprimatur of government authority... like when the Roman emperor decided it would behoove him to have one emperor, one religion, one empire kind of thing. Later, philosophy became (in the popular and academic mind) a "subject" one studied apart from living one's life. In more recent time, the ancient schools - I'd argue spearheaded by "Stoics" (and, yes, I'm putting it deliberately in quotes) - have seen a revival of sorts, including philosophical counseling. Our little corner of the internet is one of the ways Epicurus' philosophy is part of that renewal, revival, and renaissance.

As far as ...

Quote from Robert

As 21st-century Epicureans, how do you integrate it into your daily life? Is there any particular structure or set of practices involved?

I try to incorporate the personal responsibility of choice/rejection in light of pleasure/pain. I try to keep perspective when it comes to the temporary nature of pain (NOT always easy in the moment!!). I try to ingrain VS35 in my thinking:

35. Don't ruin the things you have by wanting what you don't have, but realize that they too are things you once did wish for. οὐ δεῖ λυμαίνεσθαι τὰ παρόντα τῶν ἀπόντων ἐπιθυμίᾳ, ἀλλʼ ἐπιλογίζεσθαι ὅτι καὶ ταῦτα τῶν εὐκταίων ἦν.

I even have it hanging inconspicuously on my office door at work.

Quote from Robert

If I'm thirsty, and convince myself that I need to have soda, beer, or whatever, might that also be an example? After all, very often a glass of water will do just fine.

On this point, yes, water would quench your thirst. But if the soda, beer, or whatever doesn't cause undue hardship to acquire or provide more pain than pleasure, I truly don't think Epicurus has any injunction against choosing that option. I regularly go back to the idea that Epicurus - on occasion - would limit himself to just enough simple food to gauge what amount it really took for him to live pleasurably, to be happy, so he would know that IF it was necessary to live on that amount, he could do it. Given whatever circumstances might come up in his life, he was confident in his ability to find pleasure IF it came down to it by experimenting from time to time in this way. I'm utterly convinced he did NOT live this way all the time.

As others have mentioned, Epicurus took part in commemorations (rituals) of his own birthday, his family's, his friends, and took part in the large city festivals regularly. I think you can also incorporate an Epicurean mindset when taking part in holidays - even if you attend church services as pro forma with family. Epicurus and the early Epicureans took part in rituals and processions and other civic affairs that paid homage and sacrifice to the gods; but I'm convinced they were not (mentally) taking part the way most in the crowds were participating. They saw the gods differently, but could take pleasure in the festivities and even the sacrifices which were a part of every civic festival. So, enjoy our (American) secular festivities like Thanksgiving, or "religious/secular" events like Christmas.. but feel free to put your own Epicurean spin on things even its only to yourself.

That configuration immediately reminded me of...

"Epicureanism, the final philosophy... Where no philosophy has gone before..."

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Julia

I'm willing to try – it's not like we need to invest our life savings or anything – and just see where we end up

As Don would say BY ZEUS that's the kind of attitude we need here on lots of things!

I appreciate the enthusiasm; but, honestly, I'm not sure what "trying" looks like in this context. I swear I don't want to be difficult. However, it seems to me we can't even come to a consensus on this thread. And if we did, what then? Everyone starts using it (is mandated to use it?) on social media. Everyone buys a hat or jewelry with THE symbol on it and starts wearing it? And how to get the Society of Epicurus to buy in? They're using the Tau/Phi combo symbol. It's a fun discussion, but I don't understand the logistics of getting something to the point of catching on.

FYI

Thread

Epicurean Rings / Jewelry / Coins / Mementos

So the sources say that ancient Epicureans had votive busts and specifically mentions that they also wore RINGS with the likeness of Epicurus. Here is a sample I got of what an Epicurus ring would look like, as a possible product for my business thetwentiers.com. It's a small ring, but it expands, and the face of Epicurus does not fit entirely into it but it still looks like Epicurus. Do others think there is a market for this?

Hiram

April 22, 2019 at 6:38 PM

I'd also bring up that saints' medals and crucifixes (with the body of Jesus) still are popular with the Catholic crowd, ex. https://www.smalldevotions.com/collections/catholic-medals

Additionally, Julia , if you or anyone would like to wear a waning gibbous moon as a personal expression of a dedication to Epicurean philosophy, I think that would be great. The 20er moon is a nice graphic symbol. I just remain skeptical of the ability of our little forum to essentially vote (in the widest sense) on a new symbol to represent the school and to have it catch on. I could be wrong, but even in this thread there are a myriad of reactions to it. Unfortunately, the waning gibbous moon symbol *as a symbol* doesn't appear to have historical precedent for the school although the name "Twentier" was definitely applied historically to the Epicureans. The face of Epicurus does have historical foundations to being displayed by students of the school, enough so to even be mocked by Cicero (it was Cicero, right?).

Happy Eikas, hoi philoi kai hai philai!

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

I despise AI for artwork on a number of levels... But that's not bad. I'd certainly prefer someone using that as a prompt and not using that.

Perhaps a typo there Don ? Not sure what you mean....

Which part?

1. I despise the use of AI for creating artwork (Copilot in this case) . It violates copyright with its ingestion of images from which to "learn." It deprives humans of exercising creativity.

2. That said, it pains me to say "That's not bad." I can appreciate what it came up with, but the way it came up with it is the problem.

3. If a human wanted to use that AI-generated image as a prompt to create a line drawing, I would find that preferable.

4. In light of all that, I'd greatly prefer that particular AI-generated image NOT be used as "the symbol" of the school.

That's my personal opinion.

I despise AI for artwork on a number of levels... But that's not bad. I'd certainly prefer someone using that as a prompt and not using that.

The American Atheists symbol.

Our Logo

An international symbol for atheism has long been needed. When American Atheists was formed in 1963, a contemporary scientific symbol was chosen; this…

www.atheists.org

I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent here, but it's adjacent to ...

Quote from kochiekoch

You'd have to promote your symbol!

From my perspective (*broadly* generalizing to the point of stereotyping - there: caveat stated), the majority of humans - or at least *many* humans - don't like ambiguity. It's easier to live a world with cut and dried rules. Rules also make it easier to enforce a structure, a hierarchy, and in-group and an out-group. This also relates to this current thread...

Thread

What Makes Someone "An Epicurean?"

In a nearby thread the question was raised about who should be considered to be an Epicurean. No one has the authority to give such a list, and probably no one after Epicurus himself, or the last head of the Epicurean school in Athens in the ancient world, ever had that authority. But we ought to give thought to what the key components of the philosophy are, so we can consider how many of them fit the person we're considering labeling as an Epicurean.

My own first question is "Does the person…

Cassius

March 30, 2019 at 7:49 PM

Epicurean philosophy, as it's advocated for on this forum (and I think the interpretation here is generally in the right direction), is big on ambiguity, personal responsibility, contextual application of practice, etc. One does not find a Ten Commandments, A Five Pillars, etc. There is no cosmic authority or priesthood asserting "my way or the highway." People who want to point to a prooftext for their position will find it a little more difficult in the extant writings. For these reasons, it will always be difficult to get a wide community. That said, I also think there are "levels" of understanding that could benefit people of many inclinations. The contextual nature of the philosophy also could lend itself to misunderstanding and shallower and deeper students. But then we get into the "no true Epicurean" would do ABC that we got into in the other thread linked above. Who gets to name the "true Epicureans"?

Quote from kochiekoch

He gets us!

If we did have "He Gets Us" Super Bowl ads, what would that mean? IF we marketed WWED bracelets (What Would Epicurus Do? - It should be SFOTSE in my opinion but I digress), what *would* Epicurus do in any given situation (other than seek the most pleasure)? But what would that mean? And he "gets us"... what does that mean?

Okay, I'm admittedly being a little provocative.

From what I understand, Epicurus calls us:

• to see the material universe for what it is: atoms and void (in the widest possible modern sense)
• to understand there are no gods doling out punishment or gifts; our behavior is up to us, chance, or necessity
• to judge every desire in light of pleasure and pain
• to understand death exists only after we no longer exist; death is no thing for us because we aren't there when it is
• to understand that justice is a man-made construct; "Natural justice is a symbol or expression of expediency, to prevent one man from harming or being harmed by another." There are no universal rights - only what agreements to neither willfully harm nor to be harmed that can be agreed to at any given time and place (This is the BIG difference between Epicureanism and Humanism. And, I admit, I still struggle with this one.)
• And so on...

Epicureanism has a lot of gray areas, not a lot of black and white answers. There is no "Thou shalt not" list. If someone is even interested if they would see a "He Gets Us" commercial or sees a WWED/SFOTSE bracelet, where do you start?? AxA 's meet-ups are a great real-world example of the benefits (and potential hazards) of opening up an Epicurean social gathering for discussion.

I'm not saying it can't be done. I look at the way the Stoics have cornered the market for ancient philosophy reborn... So... I guess... if they can do it... Why not the Epicureans?

LOL... I may have talked myself out of a pessimistic perspective... then again.... (insert more pondering here )