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  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
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Posts by Mike Anyayahan

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  • Attitudes: Stoic Gloom vs. Epicurean Sunshine

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 22, 2020 at 1:26 AM
    Quote from Charles

    The indifference of Stoicism has a hard time keeping up with the Swerve of Epicurean Philosophy

    That's also what I told them, but they replied to me that they do not claim to be indifferent. They said that it is the surrounding that is indifferent, and they only have control of their mind whether to affirm an indifferent object as painful or annoying. They gave me an example that when a pen falls on the ground, I shouldn't get annoyed because it is indifferent and does not have any intention to annoy me. Or I can say that it is destined to annoy me so I better not be. This is why I asked them how we could control our mind and feelings toward something if the external world is highly deterministic and uncontrollable. It would be like fooling myself that I am in control of everything.

  • Attitudes: Stoic Gloom vs. Epicurean Sunshine

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 21, 2020 at 11:33 PM
    Quote from Cassius

    Some people look at the pain of life, think that escaping pain is all that matters, develop a "gloomy" disposition, and even regularly question whether they would have been better off if they had never been born. It is probably fair to say that this typical of a personality that strongly embraces Stoicism, while the Epicurean personality affirms that the joy in life is well worth the pain.

    When I used to be active in one FB Stoicism group, I noticed that even stoics there are divided in this issue. Some are gloomy. Others are joyful amidst pain especially for those who incorporate stoicism into cognitive behavioral therapy.

    I just can't understand until now how pain and joy can exist at the same moment. I practiced it before, and it didn't work for me. When I was jobless for quite awhile, I suffered from depression. None of those stoic applications helped me. What cured me was the pleasure I got when landing a new job. This is what makes me believe that practical Epicureanism makes more sense than practical stoicism.;)

  • Happy Twentieth of January, 2020!

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 20, 2020 at 10:38 AM

    Happy Twentieth!

  • Glossary - What is the Epicurean Definition of "Pleasure?"

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 18, 2020 at 11:34 PM

    I guess there is no need to debate on the exactness of the definition of pleasure since it's a straightforward term. The very word speaks for itself. What we had to was happiness. And based on the flow of our discussion, the best way to define happiness is through examples instead of through abstraction. Just like with the word pain, I don't think we have to be confused with pleasure. Again, Epicurus is not big on definitions the way Plato and Aristotle spend much energy with.

  • Glossary - What is the Epicurean Definition of "Pleasure?"

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 18, 2020 at 5:34 PM
    Quote from elli

    I have the impression that Epicurus was right when he said : The removal of pain is an unsurpassed joy i.e. pleasure. :) if we read medical articles on molecules of bliss and happiness we realize that. So, when you have free time please read again the work that was done by Elayne who is a doctor ! On Pain, Pleasure, and Happiness (Version 2)

    I do not actually reject such fact that the removal of pain produces pleasure. In fact, my comment on this emphasizes it:

    "The production of pleasure by the removal of pain is not my personal opinion. It is how I understand what Torquatus said in the second paragraph of part XL of the Book 1 of On Ends. He said "For, as when hunger and thirst are driven away by meat and drink, the very removal of the annoyance brings with it the attainment of pleasure, so in every case, the removal of pain PRODUCES the succession of pleasure. And therefore Epicurus would not admit that there was any intermediate state between pleasure and pain;"

    As I understand it, painlessness does not necessarily mean pleasure because painlessness is the end process of the removal of pain that produces pleasure. Therefore, there is only either pain and pleasure (not either pain or the absence of pain)

    My point is that the absence or removal of pain does not define pleasure so it would be strange if I say that pleasure is the removal of pain. It says here that there is pleasure after the removal of pain. The process of removing pain is not a state but a process that turns pain into pleasure nor a state of painlessness that defines pleasure."

    My point is that painlessness does not necessarily mean pleasure. It is part or the end process of removing pain. What comes next is pleasure. What I'd like us to seek definition is for "pleasure" itself the way we can define "pain."

    As far as I understand, the removal of pain defines the highest pleasure, not pleasure alone.

    Like what I also commented previously:

    "The removal of pain comes in the way only because Torquatus describes the highest pleasure. He describes it by saying "when a man is free from every sort of pain, is not only pleasure, but the highest sort of pleasure." Therefore, let us not forget that what we define here is pleasure, not the highest pleasure."

    Because if we literally hold on to the very premise "That the removal of pain is pleasure," the idea would become abstract. It would mean that death, which removes all sorts of pain, is or produces pleasure.

    And of course, we do not define pain as "something that is removed in order to become pleasure. We define pain as annoyance, disturbance, and the like. That's also what I'd like us to define pleasure if there is any appropriate reference to it. :)

  • Glossary - What is the Epicurean Definition of "Pleasure?"

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 18, 2020 at 1:38 PM

    I would not have believed in Epicurus if I hadn't put him in my scrutiny before. If had believed the false teachings of others about Epicurus without prudence and justice, I would have still been thinking of Epicurus to be either a hermit or a happy-go-lucky guy. Therefore, I think it proper to get rid of Ad Hominem so as not to be unfairly influenced by inauthentic teachings.

  • Glossary - What is the Epicurean Definition of "Pleasure?"

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 18, 2020 at 1:22 PM
    Quote from Cassius

    I know I have seen one or more of the commentators suggest that Cicero really swung into anti-Epicurean mode after his daughter died, with the implication being that he just wasn't able to handle that.

    I know how hostile Cicero was to Epicureanism. But since I also know he was a skeptic, I'm confident he presented basic Epicurean philosophy using authority information from Epicureans represented by Torquatus. This is not different from the way we attack a particular philosophy today. Before we do the attack, we get information from authority sources so that our criticism is valid and not based on opinion or supposed understanding of that philosophy. But if Cicero were not a skeptic, it would be a different story. Like for instance, I would think twice if I should learn what Christianity is based on what Nietzsche was trying to tell the world.

  • Glossary - What is the Epicurean Definition of "Pleasure?"

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 18, 2020 at 10:48 AM

    For instance, I did not believe Schopenhauer for asking us to live in solitude. Although he died being alone, that does not mean he practiced what he taught. I had no clue whether or not he was happy with his situation or he simply wanted us to be like him in similar misery. Meanwhile, Epicurus was very happy practicing what he was teaching. I shouldn't doubt when he talks about practicing something. Therefore, happiness is somehow a helpful measurement of an author's authenticity. I just don't know how happy or sad was Cicero

  • Glossary - What is the Epicurean Definition of "Pleasure?"

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 18, 2020 at 10:33 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    I think it is generally admirable to take that attitude, but unfortunately a deadly mistake, because people DO twist and turn and misrepresent the "truth" to suit their own purposes. Many people are honestly mistaken, but many are not, and those seem to be the ones who exert the most energy in manipulating other people.

    This is the reason why I do not simply take or swallow the whole package of a philosopher's thought according to merit since it is difficult to trust his or her authenticity. What I do is to scrutinize the whole body and retain every good meat.

  • Glossary - What is the Epicurean Definition of "Pleasure?"

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 18, 2020 at 10:21 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    And since the universe and human nature have not changed in 2000 years in respect to fundamentals, we ought to be able ourselves to recreate both the methodology and the general conclusions

    This is what I am trying to.

  • Glossary - What is the Epicurean Definition of "Pleasure?"

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 18, 2020 at 10:17 AM

    That is something I should consider, too. On the other hand, I'm not used to Ad Hominem. I care less about the intention. Rather, I am more interested in the context and condition.

  • Glossary - What is the Epicurean Definition of "Pleasure?"

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 18, 2020 at 10:04 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    I've always been very sympathetic to Cicero but when I consider his writings in this context my sympathy for his eventually "losing his head" is somewhat diminished. ;)

    This is why I am also worried about which translation displays more fidelity to Epicurus' message. I don't know how to gauge it and which to trust.

  • Glossary - What is the Epicurean Definition of "Pleasure?"

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 18, 2020 at 9:58 AM

    The removal of pain comes in the way only because Torquatus describes the highest pleasure. He describes it by saying "when a man is free from every sort of pain, is not only pleasure, but the highest sort of pleasure." Therefore, let us not forget that what we define here is pleasure, not the highest pleasure.

  • Glossary - What is the Epicurean Definition of "Pleasure?"

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 18, 2020 at 9:48 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    This issue (pleasure obtained by filling a need / healing a pain) is closely related to the "replenishment" theory of pleasure discussed at length in the Gosling and Taylor book as one of the theories of pleasure,

    That's pleasure.

    Quote from Cassius

    Yes Mike I think that removal of pain is one description of producing pleasure, but not the only way, as illustrated by the smelling of the rose example.

    Perhaps what you mean is a description of pleasure in relation to removal of pain. Actually, I do not see the removal of pain to be a description of pleasure as I expressed in my comments. Pain is pain. Pleasure is pleasure. Both words are straightforward.

  • Glossary - What is the Epicurean Definition of "Pleasure?"

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 18, 2020 at 8:06 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    OK not to pick nits again but i think the "produced by" can be taken too far. Ultimately I don't think I would agree that pleasure is produced by absence of pain any more than it would be correct to say that atoms are produced by absence of void, would it? Yes the only way to remove a feeling of pain is to replace it with pleasure, because of the nature of the beast - if we feel anything, it is either pleasure or pain in the Epicurean scheme. But to say "produced by" adds another dimension with implications that cannot be sustained.

    When you derived pleasure from smelling a rose, what pain did you remove to achieve that pleasure? So I think it is important not to carry "produced by" too far.

    The production of pleasure by the removal of pain is not my personal opinion. It is how I understand what Torquatus said in the second paragraph of part XL of the Book 1 of On Ends. He said "For, as when hunger and thirst are driven away by meat and drink, the very removal of the annoyance brings with it the attainment of pleasure, so in every case, the removal of pain PRODUCES the succession of pleasure. And therefore Epicurus would not admit that there was any intermediate state between pleasure and pain;"

    As I understand it, painlessness does not necessarily mean pleasure because painlessness is the end process of the removal of pain that produces pleasure. Therefore, there is only either pain and pleasure (not either pain or the absence of pain)

    My point is that the absence or removal of pain does not define pleasure so it would be strange if I say that pleasure is the removal of pain. It says here that there is pleasure after the removal of pain. The process of removing pain is not a state but a process that turns pain into pleasure nor a state of painlessness that defines pleasure.

  • Glossary - What is the Epicurean Definition of "Pleasure?"

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 18, 2020 at 6:58 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    I think in part DeWitt is focusing on his observation that "pleasure has meaning only to the living" and to the resulting observation that unless we have life, no pleasure is possible, which makes life that without which there is no possibility of experiencing pleasure.

    Yes Cassius. I agree. This was my point I'd like to reiterate when I said that death can remove all our pains, but it won't make us happy nor live in pleasure since we are already dead. This is why I understand pleasure not literally to be the absence of pain but something that is produced by the absence of pain and that will exist as pleasure togetber with that absence of pain that has produced it.

  • Glossary - What is the Epicurean Definition of "Pleasure?"

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 18, 2020 at 6:43 AM
    Quote from elli

    There are some persons that claim deviously accusing Epicurus of living in a cave with bread and water and they make the conclusion that in our era to have a car is unnatural and unnecessary. No, the desire for traveling and visiting other places, unknown and known persons as friends it is not unnatural and unnecessary desire. It is a must. It is the enrichment of memories and feelings. As it was the horse in the Epicurus era, now is the car and airplane for traveling. And if we are incapable yet to accumulate the power/energy from our star/sun or air, and we still are fighting each other for the oil for using the means of transportation and the means for cultivation of our food, we do not get under the economical/political orders to eliminate our desires and following the motto of "frugality" for living our life in a cave with bread and water and that's fine. No, we will try with all of our efforts to investigate Nature since the investigation is in our nature, for living like gods among gods. This is eudaemonia !

    BECAUSE we have to remember and to not forget (this is the word “a+litheia” (true) in greek that means “without oblivion”) this again and again: Every explanation without the core that exists in Epicurean philosophy is something just to talk about since every issue and every term in Epicurean philosophy has a fixed bond with pleasure. For EP every of our choice and avoidance, in our life, serves the pleasure, and it has the pleasure in its foundation i.e. inside its core. If you follow false philosophies, false religions with obsessions, false ideologies with -isms, false mainstreams, false economical, sociological, psychological theories, it is sure that you will end up compromised, subordinated and manipulated, so then the pleasure is lost, as well as your study in Nature and Epicurean Philosophy loses its core and disappears too. So, when someone confuses things and issues with the study of EP that is a whole, he has not to say for himself that is an epicurean, he is something else that pretends that he is an epicurean. :/

    I agree with this. A rich man who is grateful, happy, not anxious, appreciative, and prudent can become an Epicurean much more than a poor guy who is too anxious even with little things. It is not the amount of possession that counts but the attitude toward the possession.

  • Glossary - What is the Epicurean Definition of "Pleasure?"

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 17, 2020 at 11:59 PM

    But for the sake of studying what Epicurus is teaching us about happiness and pleasure, it is clear that they are two different things that are similar. It is still important to determine the exactness of their differences so we can avoid some false interpretations of the real message of Epicurus. If happiness for Epicurus is Eudamonia, that doesn't mean pleasure is ataraxia the way the absence of pain doesn't necessarily mean pleasure. I guess there is nothing else to define pleasure since it's the ultimate definition of such feeling. It is happiness that needs refinement.

  • Glossary - What is the Epicurean Definition of "Pleasure?"

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 17, 2020 at 11:30 PM
    Quote from Charles

    Which is why practice and translating our words into living actions is of extreme importance ;)

    Gotcha! Action speaks louder than words. The application of Epicureanism in all aspects of our daily life will best define happiness and pleasure. Besides, Epicurean philosophy is straightforward and not as abstract as that of Plato, Kant, or Hegel. It's ethics is obviously practical, hence not complicated to practice.

  • Glossary - What is the Epicurean Definition of "Pleasure?"

    • Mike Anyayahan
    • January 17, 2020 at 10:25 PM
    Quote from Cassius

    Right -- these babies are "happy" even though they do not know a single word, or a single point of logic, which shows that neither words nor logic are necessary for happiness at the earliest stages of life, to which we look as examples of those who are uncorrupted.

    This is interesting. If that is the case, no words or knowledge can explain well what happiness really is. So in order to tell the lay audience what it is, we have to explain it by making our words produce a picture that is easy to imagine. Using examples is a lot helpful.

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