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Posts by Joshua

Regularly Checking In On A Small Screen Device? Bookmark THIS page!
Western Hemisphere Zoom.  This Sunday, May 25, at 12:30 PM EDT, we will have another zoom meeting at a time more convenient for our non-USA participants.   This week we will combine general discussion with review of the question "What Would Epicurus Say About the Search For 'Meaning' In Life?" For more details check here.
  • Episode 166 - The Lucretius Today Podcast Interviews Dr. David Glidden on "Epicurean Prolepsis"

    • Joshua
    • July 20, 2023 at 7:36 PM

    In light of this recent thread I have decided to give another listen to this episode, and am slowly developing a better understanding of what is going on with the word 'cognition'. Dr. Glidden expressly contrasts the cognitive with the physiological. In humans it's difficult to demarcate these two faculties, in part because they are very intertwined.

    But taking a lower order of life like the spider plant on my balcony, I can make several observations. Does it experience sensation? I suspect so. My balcony faces northeast, and that is the direction sunlight comes from. Not direct sunlight--my spider plant will never "see" the sun where it sits, but enough filters through by reflection and refraction for the plant to make do.

    And here's the thing; when the spider plant sends forth a new shoot, it tends invariable toward the light. In a phenomenon called Heliotropism, some plants will actually track the sun from east to west throughout the day. No brain, no thought or cognition, no language--and yet the plant senses light and heat and responds to stimuli with primitive cellular motor function. The process, from beginning to end, is physiological.

    What about prolepsis? In the well-known and charismatic Venus Fly-Trap, it is an electrical impulse passed from the trigger hairs on each of the lobes that 'tells' the midrib of the plant to close the trap. The process again is physiological and noncognitive. Too physiological? Maybe. It could be argued that a merely physical process, like gently tapping the keys on a piano, is too noncognitive to really count as pattern recognition. After all, that last word is "re-cognition".

    But if you look at plants on the cellular level, what you will observe is the faculty of these cells to recognize patterns associated with perceived threats and dangers--a faculty that allows the cells to respond to the threat and mitigate the damage.

    The threat in this case is microbes, and it is an immune response that the pattern recognition triggers. To quote Wikipedia;

    Quote

    Pattern recognition receptors (PRRs) play a crucial role in the proper function of the innate immune system. PRRs are germline-encoded host sensors, which detect molecules typical for the pathogens. They are proteins expressed, mainly, by cells of the innate immune system, such as dendritic cells, macrophages, monocytes, neutrophils and epithelial cells, to identify two classes of molecules: pathogen-associated molecular patterns (PAMPs), which are associated with microbial pathogens, and damage-associated molecular patterns (DAMPs), which are associated with components of host's cells that are released during cell damage or death.

    If a molecule with the pattern of a threat bumbs up against a PRR, the host organism's cells will initiate the immune response. But here's the thing; just as it's possible to mimic the pattern of a fly by triggering the hairs of a venus fly-trap, it would be possible for a molecule to trip a PRR by having the pattern of a microbe without actually being one.

    Do we consider this a primitive form of prolepsis? Let's review the components:

    • Initial sensory contact. Like a human seeing a curvy stick on the forest floor, a venus fly-trap or Pattern Recognition Receptor in the cell registers a sensory impulse.
    • The sensory impulse is "identified" (in purely physiological terms) as matching a "known" pattern--like a key sliding into a lock. The stick sends an impulse to our brain, and some twitching neuron somewhere fires--SNAKE!
    • The organism responds both to the stimulus and to the pattern recognition. This part is essential--a fructose molecule could bump against a PRR all day long, providing the sensory impulse, but not register as a known pattern. It alone would not trigger the organism's response. The pattern recognition is essential. We jump back from the stick, only to discover cognitively that it's just a stick after all.

    I think I would call this a kind of prolepsis.

    One further consideration. Does prolepsis lie? Can it be wrong? It depends on what we mean by 'wrong'. I might define prolepsis--sensation->pattern->response--as an "anticipation made noncognitively in advance of more complete information". It's certainly true that the stimulus whose pattern we recognize will very often turn out to be caused by something else. A stick, not a snake. A feather, not a fly. A fructose molecule, not a dangerous microbe.

    But was the pattern recognition ITSELF a lie? I think not. A curvy stick does have the same pattern as a snake to the sense of vision. My opinion is that prolepsis is true to the cause because the cause IS the pattern. The stick-ness or snake-ness of the stick or snake is something we grasp cognitively and express and understand using language. But the pattern is the pattern--evaluating whether it's been rightly identified in the light of future evidence or further knowledge is quite beside the point. That process is cognitive--this process is physiological.

    So that's where I find myself right now.

  • Embodied Cognitive Science

    • Joshua
    • July 20, 2023 at 10:47 AM

    Also, we have a few articles by prof. David Glidden as to the relationship between Epicurean canonics or epistemology and cognitive science. We also interviewed Dr. Glidden on the podcast, that episode is Here.

    Edit; I apologize, HsiehKW, I see you already linked to one of Dr. Glidden's articles!

  • Embodied Cognitive Science

    • Joshua
    • July 20, 2023 at 10:44 AM

    I don't have any familiarity with this, perhaps we should make a table for the four 'e's so we have a better sense of what we're looking at. I'll read up more on the subject. At a glance I think I agree with the embodied part, if I understand it rightly. I haven't looked at the other three yet. Happy twentieth!

  • Episode 182 - "Epicurus And His Philosophy" Part 34 - Chapter 14 - The New Virtues 02

    • Joshua
    • July 19, 2023 at 7:15 PM

    Are children born in a state of original honesty?

    We didn't cover this very deeply, but there are excellent reasons for thinking that it's true. Everyone has experienced those moments when children say things that adults have been educated or conditioned or cultured into believing are tactless, rude, or unmentionable.

    "Kids say the darnedest things" is a common phrase in America, but the question seldom asked is "why?"

    Kids are honest, I think, because they have not yet been convinced of the perceived (and sometimes appropriate) need to lie.

    Anyway, here is a study into the perception of judges to ascertain their views on the reliability of eye witnesses.

    Judges Think Children More Honest But Less Reliable Than Adults, Says Queen's Study
    Judges perceive child witnesses as being more honest than adults when testifying in court, but recognize that children's limited memory and communication…
    www.sciencedaily.com

    The conclusion: "Judges Think Children More Honest But Less Reliable Than Adults".

  • "The Philosophical Mind" enters the skull of Epicurus

    • Joshua
    • July 19, 2023 at 6:00 PM

    Yes, it definitely dovetails with what DeWitt says about the Summum Bonum as it relates to pleasure and life. For clarity's sake it makes sense to say that pleasure is the highest good, but pleasure is inseparable from life both superficially (in the 'duh' sense) and at a very deep level.

    I almost quibbled with the sentence "There is no Truth", except that by capitalizing the word the author makes a very important and, as I think, philosophically sound point; that capital-T "Truth" does not exist in the abstract apart from fact, physical nature, human understanding, etc.

  • What if Kyriai Doxai was NOT a list?

    • Joshua
    • July 19, 2023 at 3:28 PM

    I wouldn't dispense with the list altogether, it's too historically ingrained. But a prose version in parallel is definitely worthwhile.

    I'd actually be curious to know what a trained classicist with no knowledge of the text would do with it if you handed them a lump of Greek capital letters with no numbering or paragraphs. But of course the first thing they would likely do is consult earlier scholarship.

  • "The Philosophical Mind" enters the skull of Epicurus

    • Joshua
    • July 19, 2023 at 11:30 AM

    Very interesting, thank you Eric!

  • Ancient Greek/Roman Customs, Culture, Clothing, Historical Events

    • Joshua
    • July 18, 2023 at 1:10 PM

    You can look at the dates for that festival on the calendar at;

    Calendar – Hellenion

    It will occur in August on our calendar.

  • Ancient Greek/Roman Customs, Culture, Clothing, Historical Events

    • Joshua
    • July 18, 2023 at 1:08 PM

    This Attic month (Hekatombaion) also includes the annual festival of the Panathenaea, which Don mentioned in his Video on the location of the Garden outside the walls of ancient Athens.

  • Ancient Greek/Roman Customs, Culture, Clothing, Historical Events

    • Joshua
    • July 18, 2023 at 1:03 PM

    This being the third year of the Olympiad, the Pythian games would have commenced with the first full moon of the New Year, which will be August 1st. However, since the calendar is lunisolar, and the moon cycle changes relative to the solstice, there is some debate as to whether they would push it back another moon to wait out the harvest. Wikipedia says the games would occur in late August, which would coincide with the second full moon this year. Difficult to say--the Athenians would add an extra month every so often to bring the months back in line with the seasons.

  • Ancient Greek/Roman Customs, Culture, Clothing, Historical Events

    • Joshua
    • July 17, 2023 at 8:45 PM

    There's an old rumor, by the way, that some of the Russian athletes were two weeks late to the 1908 Olympics because they were still using the Julian calendar and most of Europe was using the modern Gregorian calendar.

    Both calendars are named after the potentates who instituted them, but of course it was the astronomers of each age who actually designed them--the Gregorian calendar by 16th century Italian astronomer and philosopher named Luigi Lilio, and the Julian calendar by the scholars at the Library and Museum of Alexandria.

  • Ancient Greek/Roman Customs, Culture, Clothing, Historical Events

    • Joshua
    • July 17, 2023 at 8:28 PM

    That is one of the many things I learned spending too much time playing video games!

  • Episode 183 - "Epicurus And His Philosophy" Part 35 - Chapter 14 - The New Virtues 06 - Honesty

    • Joshua
    • July 17, 2023 at 8:09 PM

    Horace, on his father;

    Quote


    If my character is flawed by a few minor faults, but is otherwise decent and moral, if you can point out only a few scattered blemishes on an otherwise immaculate surface, if no one can accuse me of greed, or of prurience, or of profligacy, if I live a virtuous life, free of defilement (pardon, for a moment, my self-praise), and if I am to my friends a good friend, my father deserves all the credit... As it is now, he deserves from me unstinting gratitude and praise. I could never be ashamed of such a father, nor do I feel any need, as many people do, to apologize for being a freedman's son. Satires 1.6.65–92

  • Happy Athenian New Year! (Wed, Jul 19th 2023)

    • Joshua
    • July 16, 2023 at 7:35 PM

    Joshua started a new event:

    Event

    Happy Athenian New Year!

    Happy New Year! This is the first full day of the third year of the 700th Olympiad.
    Wed, Jul 19th 2023
    Joshua
    July 16, 2023 at 7:35 PM

    Quote

    Happy New Year! This is the first full day of the third year of the 700th Olympiad.

  • The Sliver of the New Moon at Nightfall (Tue, Jul 18th 2023, 8:00 am-8:00 pm)

    • Joshua
    • July 16, 2023 at 7:32 PM

    Joshua started a new event:

    Event

    The Sliver of the New Moon at Nightfall

    The Attic New Year of the third year of the 700th Olympiad will commence with the sighting of the first sliver of the New Moon.
    Tue, Jul 18th 2023, 8:00 am – 8:00 pm
    Joshua
    July 16, 2023 at 7:32 PM

    Quote

    The Attic New Year of the third year of the 700th Olympiad will commence with the sighting of the first sliver of the New Moon.

  • The First New Moon After the Summer Solstice (Mon, Jul 17th 2023)

    • Joshua
    • July 16, 2023 at 7:29 PM

    Joshua started a new event:

    Event

    The First New Moon After the Summer Solstice

    The modern attempt at reconstructing one of the ancient Attic Calendars has the New Year beginning with the month of Hekatombaion, and "with the first sighting of the new moon after the summer solstice. Ideally, the solstice would occur toward the end of Skirophorion, the final month of the year." That New Moon will occur on July 17th this year. The year has its start when the first sliver of the New Moon becomes visible.

    The Calendar at Hellenion.org has the 1st of Hekatombaion taking place on…
    Mon, Jul 17th 2023
    Joshua
    July 16, 2023 at 7:29 PM

    Quote

    The modern attempt at reconstructing one of the ancient Attic Calendars has the New Year beginning with the month of Hekatombaion, and "with the first sighting of the new moon after the summer solstice. Ideally, the solstice would occur toward the end of Skirophorion, the final month of the year." That New Moon will occur on July 17th this year. The year has its start when the first sliver of the New Moon becomes visible.

    The Calendar at Hellenion.org has the 1st of Hekatombaion taking place on Wednesday the 19th, though Tuesday the 18th after nightfall will mark the change. This coming year will be the 3rd year of the 700th Olympiad.

  • Episode 183 - "Epicurus And His Philosophy" Part 35 - Chapter 14 - The New Virtues 06 - Honesty

    • Joshua
    • July 16, 2023 at 11:46 AM

    VS62 also relates to the issue of honesty and frankness of speech, and when it is best to hold back; "If the anger of parents against their children is justified, it is quite pointless for the children to resist it and to fail to ask forgiveness. If the anger is not justified but is unreasonable, it is folly for an irrational child to appeal to someone deaf to appeals and not to try to turn it aside in other directions by a display of good will."

  • Episode 183 - "Epicurus And His Philosophy" Part 35 - Chapter 14 - The New Virtues 06 - Honesty

    • Joshua
    • July 16, 2023 at 11:41 AM

    Show Notes:


    Footnote 22, and why it's easy to relate good news. Dewitt cites Exordium by the Athenian statesman Demosthenes:

    Demosthenes, Exordia, exordium 54

    Quote


    It is just and right and important, men of Athens, that we too should exercise care, as you are accustomed, that our relations with the gods shall be piously maintained. Therefore our commission has been duly discharged for you, for we have sacrificed to Zeus the Saviour and to Athena and to Victory, and these sacrifices have been auspicious and salutary for you. We have also sacrificed to Persuasion and to the Mother of the Gods and to Apollo, and here also we had favorable omens. And the sacrifices made to the other gods portended for you security and stability and prosperity and safety. Do you, therefore, accept the blessings which the gods bestow.

    The Grey-Rock method; when honesty is not the best policy

    When Dealing With a Narcissist, the “Gray Rock” Approach Might Help
    Acting dull and uninteresting can undermine a narcissist’s attempts to control.
    www.psychologytoday.com

    Lucy Hutchinson on why she translated Lucretius, in her letter to the Earl of Anglesey

    Full text | Lucy Hutchinson's letter to Lord Anglesey (1675)

    Quote


    So I beseech your Lordship to reward my obedience, by indulging me the further honor to preserve, wherever your Lordship shall dispose this booke, this record with it, that I abhorre all the Atheismes and impieties in it, and translated it only out of youthfull curiositie, to understand things I heard so much discourse of at second hand, but without the least inclination to propagate any of the wicked pernitious doctrines in it.

    On Shooting the Messenger;

    Quote

     An early literary citing of "killing the messenger" is in Plutarch's 'Lives': "The first messenger that gave notice of [the Roman general] Lucullus' coming was so far from pleasing [the Armenian king] Tigranes that he had his head cut off for his pains; and no man dared to bring further information. Without any intelligence at all, Tigranes sat while war was already blazing around him, giving ear only to those who flattered him".

  • Episode 183 - "Epicurus And His Philosophy" Part 35 - Chapter 14 - The New Virtues 06 - Honesty

    • Joshua
    • July 16, 2023 at 11:24 AM

    Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra, Act 5, Scene 2, on the difficulty of frank speech:

    CLEOPATRA

    I dreamt there was an emperor Antony.

    O, such another sleep, that I might see

    But such another man.

    DOLABELLA If it might please you—

    CLEOPATRA

    His face was as the heavens, and therein stuck

    A sun and moon, which kept their course and

    lighted

    The little O, the Earth.

    DOLABELLA Most sovereign creature—

    CLEOPATRA

    His legs bestrid the ocean, his reared arm

    Crested the world. His voice was propertied

    As all the tunèd spheres, and that to friends;

    But when he meant to quail and shake the orb,

    He was as rattling thunder. For his bounty,

    There was no winter in ’t; an autumn ’twas

    That grew the more by reaping. His delights

    Were dolphin-like; they showed his back above

    The element they lived in. In his livery

    Walked crowns and crownets; realms and islands

    were

    As plates dropped from his pocket.

    DOLABELLA Cleopatra—

    CLEOPATRA

    Think you there was, or might be, such a man

    As this I dreamt of?

    DOLABELLA Gentle madam, no.

    CLEOPATRA

    You lie up to the hearing of the gods!

    But if there be nor ever were one such,

    It’s past the size of dreaming. Nature wants stuff

    To vie strange forms with fancy, yet t’ imagine

    An Antony were nature’s piece ’gainst fancy,

    Condemning shadows quite.

    DOLABELLA Hear me, good madam.

    Your loss is as yourself, great; and you bear it

    As answering to the weight. Would I might never

    O’ertake pursued success but I do feel,

    By the rebound of yours, a grief that smites

    My very heart at root.

    CLEOPATRA I thank you, sir.

    Know you what Caesar [Augustus] means to do with me?

    DOLABELLA

    I am loath to tell you what I would you knew.

    CLEOPATRA

    Nay, pray you, sir.

    DOLABELLA Though he be honorable—

    CLEOPATRA He’ll lead me, then, in triumph.

    DOLABELLA Madam, he will. I know ’t.

  • More correct to say "Natural Science" rather than "Physics"?

    • Joshua
    • July 13, 2023 at 2:37 PM

    "Natural philosophy", at least in the English of the 19th century, did not contain just physics but also botany (Joseph Banks), biology (Charles Darwin), geology (Charles Lyell), astronomy (Edwin Hubble), anatomy and physiology (Henry Gray), and so on.

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