Posts by Joshua

St. Augustine is also writing very near the limit of Late Antiquity, in the early 5th century.

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In the history of Europe, the Middle Ages or medieval period (also spelled mediæval or mediaeval) lasted approximately from the late 5th to the late 15th centuries, aligning with the post-classical period of global history. It began with the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 AD and ended with the fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD before transitioning into the Renaissance and then the Age of Discovery.

And in the medieval period Epicurus was still calumniated, but as a glutton rather than a philosopher. We would need a more complete understanding of medieval literature to find the traces of atomism and hedonism, which I certainly lack.

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while they make avoiding of evil to be the very essence and consummation of good

It looks like an alternative translation could be something like;

The sum of the good follows where the height of evil flees.

Which sort of accounts for the time element in the Vatican saying.

I found something in Plutarch that might bear on the question;

"Thus do Epicurus and Metrodorus, while they make avoiding of evil to be the very essence and consummation of good, and so receive but as it were the satisfaction of slaves or of rogues newly discharged the [jail], who are well enough contented if they may but wash and supple their sores and the stripes they received by whipping, but never in their lives had one taste or sight of a generous, clean, unmixed, and unulcerated joy." (Translation source)

‘ ἀναφερομένων, ἀπειρίᾳ δὲ τοῦ κάτω καὶ ἄνω καὶ ἀγνοίᾳ τὸ μέσον ἄκρον ἡγουμένων εἶναι καὶ πέρας: ὥσπερ Ἐπίκουρος ἡγεῖται καὶ Μητρόδωρος, οὐσίαν τἀγαθοῦ καὶ ἀκρότητα τὴν τοῦ κακοῦ φυγὴν τιθέμενοι καὶ χαίροντες ἀνδραπόδων τινὰ χαρὰν ἢ δεσμίων ἐξ εἱργμοῦ λυθέντων ἀσμένως ἀλειψαμένων καὶ ἀπολουσαμένων μετὰ τὰς αἰκίας καὶ τὰς μάστιγας, ἐλευθέρας δὲ καὶ καθαρᾶς καὶ ἀμιγοῦς καὶ ἀμωλωπίστου χαρᾶς ἀγεύστων καὶ ἀθεάτων. οὐ γάρ, εἰ τὸ ψωριᾶν τὴν σάρκα καὶ λημᾶν τὸν ὀφθαλμὸν [p. 378] ἀλλότριον, ἤδη καὶ τὸ κνᾶσθαι καὶ τὸ ἀπομάττεσθαι θαυμάσιον οὐδ᾽ εἰ τὸ ἀλγεῖν καὶ φοβεῖσθαι τὰ ’

I thought it was notable because Plutarch uses τοῦ κακοῦ, the very phrase used to amend the text of VS42, and in the context of the chief good (pleasure) residing in the removal of evil (pain).

Lucretius is supportive of sex as a way to satisfy the claims of the body, but he is critical of romantic love. I'll be at more liberty to comment when I get home from work.

That is a great topic, and one that I am also interested in!

Cicero, De Finibus, Book V, Section 3

Or just control+F search for "rings"

I should have ended with a quote from Stephen Greenblatt; “Compared to the unleashed forces of warfare and of faith, Mount Vesuvius was kinder to the legacy of antiquity.”

I'm not saying he is one, I'm just saying there are red flags.

It is definitely useful to see these things in their context. For example;

In a letter scholars have dated to c. 355, Julian the Apostate was commenting on the political inaction of the Epicureans;

Letter to Themistius the philosopher - Wikisource, the free online library

Another letter from the same advocates the Suppression of Epicurean texts;

Fragment of a letter to a priest - Wikisource, the free online library

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Let us not admit discourses by Epicurus or Pyrrho; but indeed the gods have already in their wisdom destroyed their works, so that most of their books have ceased to be. Nevertheless there is no reason why I should not, by way of example, mention these works too, to show what sort of discourses priests must especially avoid; and if such discourses, then much more must they avoid such thoughts. For an error of speech is, in my opinion, by no means the same as an error of the mind, but we ought to give heed to the mind first of all, since the tongue sins in company with it.

By edict of a pagan emperor in a letter to one of his priests, Epicureanism becomes thought crime. It is actually worse in his view to think about than to speak about it, because speech is vulnerable to correction and purgation while thought is not.

The 15th century Florentine iconoclast priest Savonarolo would be proud.

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“Listen women,” he preached to the crowd, “They say that this world was made of atoms, that is, those tiniest of particles that fly through the air.” No doubt savoring the absurdity, he encouraged his listeners to express their derision out loud: “Now laugh, women, at the studies of these learned men.”

A few decades after the reign of Julian came St. Augustine's survey of the situation -- "The ashes of Epicureanism are so cold that not a single spark can be struck from them."

Within two centuries of Diogenes Laertius, there was almost nothing left.

Thank You!

Quote from Cassius

Also for future reference, you indicated this morning that you found a better "keyword" to use in searching for something like this better than "timeline." Do you recall what that was?

Well, that's the trouble; there is the Gantt Chart which is infuriatingly close to what we need, and may actually be helpful in feeding a growing table of data into a chart maker. But it has it's downsides. For one thing, the resulting chart will almost always be longer vertically than horizontally, which means a pretty massive file for the amount of data presented.

Also, every one I've seen has the labels in a column on the left rather in the chart itself.

I just don't know how to search for this;

File:Timeline of Indian history.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

without finding a lot of this:

Economy of the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Link to main timeline; https://time.graphics/line/852902

This will be regarded as the final version.

Edit; the main repository will be in the forum Gallery at this link.

There are later figures, but the citation is usually something like "2nd Century" or "c. 250 AD". Too many different kinds of data make it difficult to plot well.

I suppose I should include Plotina's intervention on behalf of the school as an event.

Epicurean Scholarchs - Epicurus Wiki

I see also this list, which cites a scholar named T. Dorandi as having developed the authoritative list.

I'm wondering if @Nate and Don can help clear up the succession of scholarchs for me. I was going by the link to the table posted by Cassius in #1, but then I found this list by Nate at Society of Epicurus and some of the dates don't match.

Protrarchus isn't mentioned at all in the table Cassius linked to, but does appear in SoFE list. The dates for Apollodorus are completely conflicting.

Nate, should I go with the list you posted at SoFE? It looks more complete.

Couldn't sleep!

The .png file on my computer is 947 kb but it compresses to 236 kb when I upload it. I can send you the file if you have a way to upload it uncompressed.

Welcome, Novem!

That was a really interesting and informative introduction!

The fact is that we all took different roads that led to our interest in Epicurean Philosophy, and your grounding in utilitarianism is probably an advantage that a lot of us don't have.

I'm glad to see that you enjoyed Emily Austin's book, our interview with her was a lot of fun.

As for Epicurus' views on the gods and other controversial issues, we don't hold people to much of a litmus test (other than the no-politics rule, and no proselytizing). We have frequent discussions about all of these things, and nobody is asked to leave their brain at the door--people are more than capable of arguing in good faith!

Welcome to the forum!

Cicero is just willfully obtuse on this point, as we've been discovering. Pleasure refers to a wider range of feelings than he is willing to acknowledge. Even Socrates in Philebus is prepared to recognize that Aphrodite, though having one name, signifies a number different varieties of pleasure.

Epicurus' common greeting in his letters uses the the phrase Ἐπίκουρος Μενοικεῖ χαίρειν--"Epicurus to Menoikeus, joyful greetings".

χαίρειν is closely related to χᾰρᾱ́ mentioned above.

Two more October dates; today, Oct. 30 is the anniversary of the death of Poggio Bracciolini in 1459. Tomorrow, October 31st, is the anniversary of the opening of the Leiden University Library in 1587. Poggio was the first to bring Lucretius back in to circulation, but the two most important 9th century medieval manuscripts--the Quadratus and the Oblongus--are housed in the Library at Leiden.

• Oct. 15th to 31st
  • 15th; T. Lucretius Carus death
  • 19th; Marsilio Ficino born (started writing a commentary on Lucretius but burned it out of fear)
  • 21st; Hermann Usener death
  • 23rd;Hermann Usener born
  • 24th; Vesuvius Eruption preserves Villa of the Papyri
  • 29th; H. A. J. Munro born
  • 30th; Poggio Bracciolini born
  • 31st; Opening of the Leiden University Library

The idealized garb of philosophers among the Greeks was taken from the symbols of Cynicism: a cloak to keep off the elements, a bag or purse to hold all of one's worldly possessions, and a staff for walking. The staff and purse are shown on the Boscoreale treasure's philosophy cup. No cloak was necessary here--all of the figures on the cup are skeletons, underlining the link between philosophy and death.

But Epicurus was not a Cynic. He also didn't hold forth publicly in the regimented world of the gymnasiarchs. Presumably he wore what was handy, some of it purchased and some, perhaps, gifted.

Plato's Academy mosaic - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This mosaic from Herculaneum is thought to depict Greek philosophers as Romans would have imagined them.