Yeah. A quick look at Ecclesiastes and Job seem to indicate they fall into the category of wisdom literature. That would have to have a Greek influence as the Mediterranean world at the time was DRENCHED in Greek culture. Even affecting insular cultures like the Jewish world at the time.
Posts by kochiekoch
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As per our Wednesday discussion, eat drink and be merry shows up in a couple of places in the bible. One is in Ecclesiastes:
Bible Gateway passage: Ecclesiastes 8:15 - Living BibleThen I decided to spend my time having fun because I felt that there was nothing better in all the earth than that a man should eat, drink, and be merry, with…www.biblegateway.com>>Ecclesiastes 8:15
Living Bible
15 Then I decided to spend my time having fun because I felt that there was nothing better in all the earth than that a man should eat, drink, and be merry, with the hope that this happiness would stick with him in all the hard work that God gives to mankind everywhere.<<
And then there's Paul. 1 Corinthians is considered one of his authentic letters, unlike about six others in the New Testament :
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15:32 - Living BibleAnd what value was there in fighting wild beasts—those men of Ephesus—if it was only for what I gain in this life down here? If we will never live again after…www.biblegateway.com>>1 Corinthians 15:32
Living Bible
32 And what value was there in fighting wild beasts—those men of Ephesus—if it was only for what I gain in this life down here? If we will never live again after we die, then we might as well go and have ourselves a good time: let us eat, drink, and be merry. What’s the difference? For tomorrow we die, and that ends everything!<<
The jist of it in the bible is that it's not a good idea. God will get you for it. Living like those Greeks.
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Happy 20th you twentyers !
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Thanks for the invite Kalosyni.
It all seems rather straightforward. Epicurus would rather tell the truth, even crouched in mysterious, esoteric, language, the average person wouldn't understand, than to tell the average person what they want to hear, and to reap the benefits of such action.
People love it when a wise man reinforces their prejudices.
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Interesting thing about 2 Timothy is that it's disputed if Paul actually wrote it.
Authorship of the Pauline epistles - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org>>The remaining four contested epistles – Ephesians, as well as the three known as the Pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy, and Titus) – have been labeled pseudepigraphical works by most critical scholars.[3][4][5] Some scholars have proposed that Paul may have used an amanuensis, or secretary, in writing the disputed letters,[6] although such a solution would not explain the fact that the disputed letters appear to have been written at least a decade after Paul’s death.<<
Couldn't have written it ten years after he died.
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I did manage to find those letters between Ninon de l'Enclos and Lord Saint-Evremond I mentioned during Happy Hour and a whole lot more.
It's been years since I read their correspondence and I haven't read the rest of it, but from what I remember she was quite a woman.Also, you might find interesting, Saint-Evremond's letter entitled: "To a modern Leontium".
Ninon de l'Enclos (archive.org)
Here is a good article on her on the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
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HI all!
In tune with last nights discussion of Hegesias the 'Death Persuader' and Cyreniacism in general, I brought up the idea that Hegesias might have been dealing with the 'hedonic treadmill. The tendency of a person to become accustomed to stimuli, and no longer experience pleasure from formally pleasurable experiences. This is a well known phenomenon:
Defining the Hedonic TreadmillHedonic adaptation or “the hedonic treadmill” are terms that define how people generally return to the same level of happiness despite their circumstances.www.verywellmind.comPoor guy must have been so pleasured out that he couldn't experience pleasure anymore, and decided that the only thing left was to end his life. But, he was a philosopher, and so had to preach that to other people.
With unfortunately disastrous results. 
The hedonic treadmill problem might be why Cyreniacism died out as a philosophical school, but Epicureanism survived. At least until the Christian era. Hegesias might represent what Cyreniacism evolved into and represent the school's late stage.The Epicurean view of pleasure helps to avoid the hedonic treadmill which people might find themselves on, and on which he addresses in PD 10:
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Here is the article I mentioned during Wednesday chat, which seems to agree with Lucretius on humans becoming softer and more social, enabling us to outcompete the less social Neanderthal people. A trait that has so far contributed to our remarkable success as a species.
8 billion people: how different the world would look if Neanderthals had prevailedNeanderthals were wiped out by chance changes in the environment. The rise of Homo sapiens wasn’t inevitable.theconversation.com -
I would have labeled them like that. Busts of Hermarchus I've seen show him as a guy with an average head size. Busts of Metrodorus depict him as a man with a larger head and broad face.
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They could have just fined him 787.5 million drachmas!
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The mysticism.
Epicurus was materialist to the bone. Whereas Plato had his 'forms', out there in ozone, discernible, by reason; of which the reality we experience is but a pale image. Epicurus had his atoms everywhere at once, discernible by our natural faculties; forming our concrete reality.
The goal of life, according to Plato was to get in harmony with the universe, and it's alleged perfection. The goal of life according to Epicurus was pleasure, in our infinite, and purposeless universe.
Plato even encouraged the 'enlightened', as he defined them, to become involved in politics and govern. Epicurus took a different track with his admonishment to 'live unnoticed'.
Taking a look at both of them, Epicurus is like an un-Plato!
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Platonism! He had his Garden on the same road as the competition. The Academy.
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Dang! You beat me to it. LOL!!! I thought I had a new article to post!
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The discussion on Canon, Reason and Nature, made me think of this old article on the difficulty religious and superstitious people have getting a firm grip on reality:
Study: Religious and Superstitious People Struggle to Understand the Physical WorldPeople who believe in God or the supernatural don’t quite understand the physical world, claims a new study from researchers at the University of Helsinki.bigthink.comIt was one of the questions Emily Austin had in her book as to why Epicurus would recommend the study of natural science as a path to tranquility. A world run by the caprices of gods and spirits doesn't sound that tranquil.
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I've seen the hedonistic response in other places in history. Here's one example I dug up.
The Plague in Paris: Hedonism, Resignation, and the First Scientific ResponseBy Dorsey Armstrong, Ph.D., Purdue University The outbreak of the plague in Paris occurred relatively late, especially considering its early arrival in…laptrinhx.com -
LOL!!!! Having pleasure fall out of the sky is good.
Or are easily available.Remember, it's choice and avoidance. Avoid those pleasures from the sky that will crack your skull.
I see your cave analogy. Actually, the bread and water in the cave would be a very painful life. I'm told, that in prison, misbehaving prisoners are put in solitary confinement as a punishment. Denied the company, of other people, they suffer terribly both mentally and physically. It's the sort of thing the ACLU seeks to ban. We are social animals.
Steve
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So in other words, it is only your failure to succeed in being a good Epicurean that makes it appropriate for you to engage in chocolate, hugs, sex, and roller coaster rides???
If that is the case then may none of us succeed in becoming good Epicureans!!No, perfection is a high bar. The Epicurean gods are perfect, but us, not so much. As good Epicureans, any kind of pleasure is welcome as it improves our state of mind!
Steve
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LOL!!! Well..., I did ask you what you thought.
Thanks for all the extensive replies so quickly!
Although, I don't think the author is just saying that we should forgo ALL pleasures, for lack of pain; in as much as we reach that perfect level of contentment only rarely. Then, chocolate, hugs, sex, roller coaster rides, etc. serve to make us happier.
It's all choice and avoidance, so you're not causing yourself more trouble than it's worth.
I await your many replies!
Steve
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I like Toby Sherman's take on Epicurean pleasure.
See what you think: -
HI there! I like my icon. <G> This setup is a very nice forum.
