Posts by Cassius

Welcome MarkJW

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Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.

You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Big choices are never easy and success is not guaranteed, but this is an example of why I am so careful about how to apply the rules about "satisfaction.". There's much more to be done to articulate how and when it is appropriate to be satisfied without letting gratitude for what we have turn into an excuse for never pursuing things that are possible.

The only thing worse than failing is not trying. Best wishes as you move forward.

Thanks to Don's suggestion I am finding it easier (but still not fast) to generate transcripts of the shows. Below is a link to an edited version of Episode 302 -

Epicurus And The Road That Is Paved With Good Intentions

Episode 302 of the Lucretius Today Podcast

epicureanfriends.substack.com

If that's not already in the new forum section we will move there.

Quote from Don

, but I'm going to push back ever so slightly on the "Epicurus is not always looking to his own advantage." Pleasure is

Yes I agree and realized that during editing that I should have been more precise. I intended to strongly emphasize the "his own" to show that he was looking at this very broadly and factoring in how other people affect him, but that didn't come across and i fully agree with your point.

Thanks I will look into that! The existing podcast provider does have a transcript, but it is not very good.

Planning yes, but schedule unknown. It's a big effort. However I am coming around to the idea that the podcast audio versions can serve as a "first draft" that when edited further turn into really good articles with wider impact. So yes I am going to work on more of these!

Substack transcript version of this podcast available here:

Is It Truly Impossible - As Cicero Alleges - To Advocate For Epicurus In The Public Sphere?

From Episode 303 of the Lucretius Today Podcast

epicureanfriends.substack.com

Quote from Don

I will admit I didn't read this entire thread, but that's never slowed me down before.

I already "liked" the main post but I can't resist adding an set of here.

Quote from SillyApe

As such, trust in the law for protection is not an effective option. I understand that building a strong community can be helpful(as I believe this is one of the many forms of security that can be increased with the help of friendship), but what else can I and other people do to deal with anger, resentment, and especially anxiety in scenarios like this? What would Epicurus and his followers advise?

SillyApe

I am sorry to hear all that which you posted. You have raised all sorts of issues which are impossible to deal with directly without more details, but you are also right that it would probably not be appropriate for us to try to go further into details which are no doubt very specific to circumstances.

I definitely think however that what you have raised can lead to generally helpful discussion of how to analyze any situation.

And it seems to me that if you truly have reached a stage where "trust in the law for protection is not an effective option" then your first priority must be to do what you can to secure the safety of yourself and your friends. Whether that requires what Kalosyni mentions of moving to another area is too fact-specific to say, but I personally not would not approach what you are describing as primarily a therapy issue, once you make sure that you avoid being out of control (which I gather is a concern per this comment:

Quote from SillyApe

When I read this, my blood began to boil as never before. I started shaking with anger.

So long as you do not let anger or any other emotion make you act irrationally, I would seek to use the anger as a spur to taking appropriate action. There are references in the fragments to Philodemus stating that Epicurus held some types of anger to be appropriate. In fact the last thing i would do would be to prioritize "calming down" over taking firm action, if firm action is in fact required. In recent podcasts we've seen Cicero take the Peripatetics to task for too loose a willingness to compromise with certain types of strong emotion, but with Epicurus the focus is always on the result, not that there is a magic quantity (zero or any other quantity) which is always bad or always good.

Epicurus left not one but two locations under terms from which we might infer that he was not welcome in those locations, so yes Epicurean philosophy will offer advice on keeping anger under control, but remember also that Epicurus says that the wise man will feel his emotions more deeply than others, and this will not be a hindrance to his wisdom.

No doubt PDO6 is relevant, and there are other references that make the same point that safety is an extremely high priority.

PD06. In order that men might not fear one another, there was a natural benefit to be had from government and kingship, provided that they are able to bring about this result. PD06: The translation given is by Mensch. Formerly we used Eugene O’Connor from “The Essential Epicurus": "Whatever you can provide yourself with to secure protection from men is a natural good.” Bailey: “To secure protection from men anything is a natural good by which you may be able to attain this end.” New Greek Version: “In order to obtain security from other people, there was (always) the natural good of sovereignty and kingship, through which (someone) once could have accomplished this.” This version is up for review given that the Greek for sovereignty and kingship clearly appears in the text but is emended out by Usener and others. See the discussion of PD06 for further detail.

Also there is PD14. The most unalloyed source of protection from men, which is secured to some extent by a certain force of expulsion, is in fact the immunity which results from a quiet life, and retirement from the world.

And also PD39 and PD40:

PD39. The man who has best ordered the element of disquiet arising from external circumstances has made those things that he could akin to himself, and the rest at least not alien; but with all to which he could not do even this, he has refrained from mixing, and has expelled from his life all which it was of advantage to treat thus.

PD40. As many as possess the power to procure complete immunity from their neighbors, these also live most pleasantly with one another, since they have the most certain pledge of security, and, after they have enjoyed the fullest intimacy, they do not lament the previous departure of a dead friend, as though he were to be pitied.

Welcome to Episode 304 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.

This week we continue covering Cicero's "Tusculan Disputations" from an Epicurean perspective. Today we wrap up our discussion of Part 3 with Section XXI and push forward into Part 4, after which we will devote our final episodes devoted to Tusculan Disputations by examining Part 5 on whether virtue alone is sufficient for happiness.

[media]https://www.spreaker.com/episode/68276862/media

Episode 303 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week our episode is entitled: "Is It Truly Impossible To Advocate For Epicurus In The Public Sphere?"

[media]https://www.spreaker.com/episode/68179312/media

Elli's comment on Facebook:

Quote

Dear epicurean friend Cassius, your comment is invaluable - not merely insightful, but absolutely necessary. The image of Epicurus as a “drunken rogue” is not just a misunderstanding; it is a historical distortion. And no matter how humorous or technically polished the presentation may be, the essence remains: what is being promoted is a caricature that insults the philosophy of the Garden.

This video, however “well-made” it may be, reproduces a Buddhist-Stoic version of Epicurus, stripped of his active stance toward pleasure, pain, and life. Epicurus #was #not #a #passive #ascetic who “wants nothing so as not to suffer.” He was a philosopher of choice, evaluation, and presence. His phrase “I would not know the meaning of the good without the stimulating pleasures” is not rhetorical flourish; it is an ontological position. And its omission from the video is not innocent, it is misleading.

So I ask: Who created this video? What is its intended purpose? Why choose to portray Epicurus as ridiculous, weak, and inconsistent? Why omit his clearest statements about pleasure, pain, and active living? Why reproduce a stereotype that even his ancient opponents did not dare to use?

Cicero and Plutarch, despite their disagreements, knew that his thought was coherent, radical, and dangerously compelling. In contrast, today we see “admirers” portraying him as a toga-party dropout spouting nonsense and collapsing from excess. That is not Epicurus. That is an insult.

And yes, as you said, the solution is not to reject the video outright, but to use it as a prompt to return to the texts, to the real experiences of life and to conscious choices. Because Epicurus was never “simplistic.” He was clear, very clear. And his clarity is not deprivation, it is fullness without fear, leading us - with his philosophy - to genuine pleasure and freedom!

Despite my own past reading in this subject I've never opened a forum on this comparison, but it's probably time to do so and should lead to all sorts of points of disagreement, especially in ethics but also (or especially) in canonics. Please remember our forum rules and confine this dscussion to philosophical issues rather than the political issues with which she is commonly identified. it may also be appropriate here to talk about "Libertarianism," but again focusing on its philosophical roots and not on its political implementation.

Years ago I wrote this article at NewEpicurean about Objectivism, but there may be people here on the forum who would like to explore the philosophical (rather than political) aspects of this topic.

Objectivism: The “Worst and Most Dangerous” Philosophy In America – NewEpicurean

Given Rand's emphasis on Aristotle and her in her own writing (to my knowledge) stiffing Epicurus from even any mention, I think there are important philosophical problems in Objectivism that would be worthwhile to discuss.

Feel free to comment here in this thread or open your own thread in this section.

Bailey uses lots of "whits" which are likely much better rendered in modern English as "bits."

Similarly, "needs be" is much better as "necessarily be" and "aught" is better as "anything"

Also:

forsooth -> indeed

perchance -> perhaps

thou and thee -> You

verily -> truly

must needs -> must necessarily

There are no doubt many other examples where Bailey can be improved. We can't hope for perfection but before we invest a lot of effort in a text to speech version we might as well start with a version that doesn't perpetuate the worst of the possible poor word choices.

Another rendering by Bailey that has always bothered me is this one at Book 2:37:

But if we see that these thoughts are mere mirth and mockery, and in very truth the fears of men and the cares that dog them fear not the clash of arms nor the weapons of war, but pass boldly among kings and lords of the world, nor dread the glitter that comes from gold nor the bright sheen of the purple robe, can you doubt that all such power belongs to reason alone, above all when the whole of life is but a struggle in darkness?

I don't find this one as objectionable as my first example, but the phrase "belongs to reason alone" is easy to misinterpret if someone isn't aware of Epicurus' views on logic and the priority of the senses, and "when the whole of life is but a struggle in darkness" is easy to read in a negative way that Lucretis is implying that the whole of life IS and HAS TO REMAIN a struggle in darkness.

Munro does better with his "withal" to indicate that the whole of life does not have to be a struggle in the dark:

how can you doubt that this is wholly the prerogative of reason, when the whole of life withal is a struggle in the dark?

And Dunster doesn't make it so easy to misinterpret the Epicurean position on reason by saying "want of sense":

Do you doubt but all this stuff is want of sense, and all our life is groping in the dark?

So here I would combine Dunster and Munro to improve that final statement.

If you are aware of particularly problematic sections of Lucretius where some translations seem better than others, please point them out. Here's one example:

At Book 1:449, Bailey renders "eventum" as "accidents," which I think is exactly the wrong implication in modern American English. "Accident" today has more of a meaning of "chaotic" or "truly accidental," and implies that any particular moment anything can happen. The real sense seems to me to be rather that what happens is simply "without intention," but in fact what does happen is not chaotic or "accidental" at all, but in fact a necessary result of the properties of the atoms as they move through the void. Rather than "accidental," most things are in fact closer to be "determined" rather being the result of a universe in which "anything" can happen.

Dunster does better by leaving the main word as "event" rather than introducing "accident." "Event" is a more neutral term in English that just conveys "it happens" rather than implying that things happen chaotically. So in this section I'll make the "modern American version" follow Dunster rather than Bailey:

Lucretius Side-by-Side

I'm posting this in the "News And Announcements" section to keep this post readily visible on the forum for the foreseeable future. This is a highly desirable project that is now readily doable combining (1) our past work on compiling versions of Lucretius with (2) readily-available good quality AI text-to-speech generation.

Thread

Preparing A Public Domain Audio And Text Version Lucretius In Modern American English

The title of the post states the goal: I want a freely accessible good quality audio version of Lucretius rendered into modern American English based on the best translations currently available. This goal is going to take quite a while to accomplish and it will require several steps:

1. We need a text that has been prepared from the best public domain versions available, "conformed" into a mashup-edition that avoids archaic or over-academic constructions but still highly accurate and as literal

…

Cassius

October 16, 2025 at 2:42 PM