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Posts by Cassius
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It is also important to be ambitious and challenge adversity when you see fit, for the opposite is to sit idly and be "content with what you have". Epicurus was an extremely ambitious person who took the risk to found a school to teach his controversial teachings right between Plato's Academy and the Stoa. He also wrote over 300 books on various subjects, we should strive to always work or produce something.
Oh my, you have won hundreds of bonus points with me for that one!
If you recognize that then I can't imagine you'll ever decide that living in a cave on bread and water would be the ideal life, or that we fail at being good Epicureans if we don't choose to do so!
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It is also worth noting that what is terrible in life is easy to endure.
And this formulation is why I am so careful not to overuse or apply the Tetrapharmakon too broadly. On its face this statement would be perceived by many people to be ridiculous, uncaring of their suffering, etc. And since this statement does not come from Epicurus himself, but from an uncertain author in a Herculaneum papyrus without surrounding context, I would be very careful applying it too broadly.
My personal view is that the best way to deal with this issue is to cite the full PD4 -
"4. Continuous bodily pain does not last long; instead, pain, if extreme, is present a very short time, and even that degree of pain which slightly exceeds bodily pleasure does not last for many days at once. Diseases of long duration allow an excess of bodily pleasure over pain." -
...While at the same time remembering that this is part of a sequence of philosophical positions that are (IMHO) clearly intended to address anti-Epicurean talking points (Plato's Philebus in particular) that concerned the viability of pleasure as the theoretical highest goal.
I find it very difficult to believe that Epicurus ever looked at a suffering friend and said "What is terrible in life is easy to endure" or anything like that.
The Tetrapharmakon is an easy to use formulation for those who understand the theory, but IMHO this formulation is the worst of the four, with "don't fear the gods" coming in second, "what's good is easy to get" third, and the least offensive (because it is most true to the sense of the PD from which it comes) being "don't fear death." -
In addition, you must resist and avoid the desires that are both; natural and unnecessary and unnatural and unnecessary.
However, there may be some leniency towards desires that are natural and unnecessary such as having a healthy sex life or going out with friends to a nicer restaurant.As you note here there is a tension involved. I was also going to ask you "What sections, if any, of this outline do you think are the "weakest" or need better articulation. I personally think the "natural and necessary" division is helpful for analysis to the extent that it reminds us that pleasures that require great effort will probably entail great pain, but if we then turn that into an absolute standard by thinking that the same same pleasures are going to entail the same difficulties for everyone, then we risk erecting a false standard that falls into the same trap as thinking that "virtue" is the same for everyone everywhere.
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In addition to acknowledging that quote, we must dispel the fear that we will not accomplish what we have wanted prior to dying.
To dispel that fear, you must acknowledge that if you regret what you have not done or what will be done in the future, ask yourself if you regret not being a part of the past and the discoveries/activities of yore.
If you do, then think why you are in a constant negative-feedback loop of never being satisfied with what you can do right now within your lifespan.This is a very interesting thought that I have not seen made before. I want to think about this one but I pulled it out in hopes that others can comment to. No doubt we want to avoid being in a constant negative-feedback loop. However i think I am wondering whether sentences two and three really address the same point.
Can or should we entertain a sense of urgency about what we want to accomplish before we die separately and apart from the question of whether we regret being a part of history before we were born? -
Wow that is a great and elaborate outline Charles. You've really given some thought to each aspect of Epicurus. Is this recent with you, or have you been studying the physics and the epistemology in addition to the ethics?
There are many many details that can be discussed and I will start with just a few:
We are not born with innate knowledge of our surroundings or of the universe, upon birth our minds are like a blank slate to be filled through direct sensory experiences, much like Locke's tabula rasa.
Rather than disagree with you on this, let me ask you: (1) Have you read DeWitt's material on Anticipations? (2) What do you perceive Anticipations to be?
A fourth criterion can also be applied: "presentational applications of the mind", for discussing things which we cannot observe, but can perceive directly but strictly in our minds.
This you presumably read in Diogenes Laertius. What is your understanding as to why Epicurus had only three criterion, and what is your understanding as to why other/later Epicureans added the fourth category?
Part of that conduct, includes virtue and its purpose, the purpose of living pleasurably, not as a reward to live in the afterlife.
To live pleasurably alongside virtue, one must use virtue as a stepping stone when one sees fit, not the other way around.On these two items, how do you define "virtue" and how does one determine what is virtuous in any particular set of circumstances?
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Great information and thanks again for joining us! And all at NINETEEN years of age??!!
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Google translate does an amusing job on the title of the article, but it's clear nevertheless that the Epicurean Festival was a great success. Congratulations Michele Pinto!
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or b.) Preserved by being made into a church.
I used to presume that the state of the forum and related areas was the result of some kind of barbarian action to burn and/or knock down all the buildings, because what else short of an incredible earthquake could produce that kind of result.
But now I gather that most all of the damage was intentional harvesting of stone over the centuries, so presumably that means the real barbarians were the churchmen.
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Michele I apologize that we've lost your last post. I know some of the links so I will reconstruct now....
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OH no did we lose the Michele Updates too!?? GRRRRR. I will reconstruct what I can - I think I have most all of what Michele posted, and I think I can find Hiram's link too.
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Compare photos like this one below to downtown areas that were pulverized in Europe and Japan in World War II. Today those cities have been rebuilt to the point where the damage is barely visible.
But just like with the Parthenon in Athens, the ruins of the capitals of the cities that the Judeo-Christian conquerors demolished have been pretty much left out the open for all to see, as if they were buzzards leaving picked-over bones behind.
I suppose the religionists thought the ruins would be a good reminder to everyone of their power, and would serve as a warning that their power should never be challenged.
I hope there are a lot of people who see these ruins and think of how much better this world would have been if it had followed the lead of Epicurus rather than these religionists.
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At 9:00 AM Tuesday we had an aborted upgrade which required a site restoral.
It appears that if you posted in the last 24 hours that your post may have been lost. I apologize to anyone whose post was lost. The only post I am aware of that may have been lost was a new thread I believe I started that mentioned Ayn Rand, so maybe losing that was for the best.
We'll take steps to be sure that this does not happen again, and I want to apologize to anyone who was affected.
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Excellent Godfrey, and thank you again for joining us today!
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Welcome Charles ! When you get a chance please let us know your background and interest in Epicurus. And thank you for joining us on the 9/1/19 conference call. We look forward to getting to know you better.
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Cassius started a new event:
QuotePart 2 of Online Book Discussion - DeWitt's "Epicurus and His Philosophy" Chapter 12 - The New Hedonism - Skype
Starting with the subsection - "The Natural Ceilings of Pleasure"
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We just had an excellent conference call to discuss Chapter 12 of Epicurus and His Philosophy, and thanks to all who participated. We'll be continuing the same discussion next week, same time, same place. Thanks especially to the two new people who joined us today, and we will look forward to next time starting with the subsection "The Natural Ceilings of Pleasure.
Joshua we are sorry you missed it, but thanks to Godfrey for joining us, and we hope you both can participate next week!
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Here is the link for anyone who can join us starting about 10 minutes from now at 11 Eastern https://join.skype.com/NSVK30V2BKhb
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