Posts by Cassius

Quote from Eikadistes

I deleted my LinkedIn account a few weeks ago.

I want to add into this thread as an aside that I have tremendous respect for the effort that Eikadistes has put into Epicurean philosophy over the years. Not only that, but he's younger than most of the rest of us here and he's having to live through more of the stresses than most of us.

Not referring to him specifically but in general -- for how many years now have people been patronized with "learn to code" as the answer to economic changes?

And now where are we? Coders being laid off in every direction, all at the same time that the competition in some parts of the intelligence-driven job market is greater than ever.

Not just those of us who are older, but to whom and to what can younger people look to to help navigate these issues?

I think Epicurus had uniquely valuable insight into what really matters and how to attack ultimate issues.

I can reduce a lot of the frustration I have with Epicurean writing over the last 100 or so years to the observation that it seems people want to encourage everyone to believe that Epicurus advised "checking out" from society.

I think Epicurean philosophy calls us to "check in" and grapple with problems with everything we've got. Not because we want unlimited wealth or power or fame or momentary physical stimulation, but because this world and this life is all we have, and we have to use it in the best possible way while we can. And that doesn't mean giving in to Platonic idealism or Kantian models based on categorical imperatives or any other kind of ivory-tower logic-based reasoning.

AI hasn't been the cause of these problems. It's the uses to which AI is being put that are ramping them up. If we allow Platonic idealism and its related culprits to dominate the us of AI (or any other technology) then we're just going to get driven deeper into obscurity. Look what the anti-Epicurean world has done over the last 2000 years with just the more primitive tools of psychological manipulation they had available to them. If they are allowed to dominate AI and use it for the advancement of Idealism then much worse is yet to come, and that can't be allowed to happen unchallenged.

Quote from Eikadistes

let's just say I'm really hoping that our species won't split, and everyone connected to AI will become Eloi and the rest of us will become Morlocks.

As some say but I am saying without any sarcasm to you, as the phrase goes, "hope is not a strategy."

I think you're absolutely right to be concerned about that. It seems to me very very likely to happen, so we have to fight against it with every tool at our disposal. Ironically it appear AI itself will be necessary to enlist against those who would use it to produce the result you and I both don't want to see.

Quote from Don

Using your articles specifically, what did the generative AI application give you that you couldn't have brought to the work by composing them without the AI tool?

What does a generative AI tool do to "reach people" that is not available without that tool

Great question. Ultimately nothing that I could not have done alone given enough time and effort. But it is an exponential force multiplier that allows things to be possible in reasonable time and effort which would not have been possible without it.

The graphics are another example - I could "never" have done those myself, yet the "message" of the graphic is entirely at my direction.

Another specific hypothetical:

Suppose a human in 1965 who is creative but not a musician decides that he can use AI to produce a song that is as beautiful and catchy as anything produced by the Beatles, and also specifically brings to the listeners' attention genuine Epicurean arguments as to no life after death and no supernatural gods. It would make Epicurus's name and genuine teaching as famous as any name used as the title of any famous love song.

Now someone is likely going to say "that's not possible" (our Experience machine PD10 argument again) but i am simply going to disagree firmly. If it's not already possible, it's going to be possible soon.

Would a Lucretius or a Diogenes of Oinoanda or a Philodemus say "No, I'm not going to do that, because AI makes me very uneasy. It doesn't matter if I could "change the world" overnight and bring consciousness of Epicurean ideas to millions of real humans at essentially no cost."

I'm sure there are some who would say "Yes that's exactly what they would say - they'd refuse to do it."

And my response to that is that I would diplomatically but firmly disagree.

As in my earlier comments as to the Industrial Revolution, i think the arguments we're concerned about now are already becoming obsolete in younger generations, and the specific concerns we have are going to die with us.

Younger people are already being acclimated to the idea that no image or video or document can be trusted at face value, because it may be AI generated.

That's not entirely a bad thing and it may not be a bad thing at all. We've always had illusions to deal with as Lucretius discusses in Book 4. And much of what we've been taught over the last 2000 years is fraudulent as well. It's probably long past time to take anything or anyone at face value. We should always test whether an assertion is in fact really true, and what implications will arise if it is in fact believed versus those if it is not.

Quote from Don

If an AI application is used to model weather data to predict severe weather and to save lives, . If someone uses generative AI to create computer code and something goes wrong, you can't ask the coder "Why did you write this line this way instead of that way?" Software engineers can be asked. G

Yes as I see it that is the test - the actual result. You would not want to turn loose generative AI without human supervision and without the ability for a human to override the Ai when it is wrong, as it often will be. I think that's pretty much the dividing line between what is acceptable and what is not. Because if indeed we use generative AI to actually and in fact reach people with genuine Epicurean presentations that would not otherwise be available to them, and we also make sure that there is human supervision that allows the human to engage, ask questions, and participate with real humans, then that's in my mind an example where the specificc end justifies the specific means.

Patrikios If I read you correctly I agree with your position.

There is a lot of ambiguity in both "natural" and "necessary" and I think it is very ill advised to be overly dogmatic (in the worst sense of the word) as to what activities or what desires go in each category.

That's why I try to emphasize that the categorization is a "tool of analysis" (which is the way I see Torquatus describing it, as a conceptual framework toward classification but not a bright line) , rather than trying to use the classification as a stand-alone blueprint.

Ultimately I don't think there are bright lines involved here other than the question of whether the desire is unlimited. If you pursue unlimited amounts of something you are by definition going to fail because as a human being you are limited by time and space. That's a bright line, and it can include sex if you choose to pursue unlimited amounts/types of sex.

II added this note near the part you quoted:

NOTE: In case it is not clear already, in the following discussion all specific desires are contextual and relative to the time and place and persons involved. The qualifier GENERALLY should be understood as applying to all specific desires, except insofar as any desire is pursued in UNLIMITED fashion. Depending on context the classification of a particular desire may shift from category to category, but the pursuit of any desire in UNLIMITED fashion is always going to be definitionally unattainable.

Please use this thread for discussion of the merits of the article and suggestions for substantive changes. Posts originally made in this thread regarding the use of AI in the blog post are being moved to the thread below, which begins with this Admin Note:

ADMIN NOTE BY CASSIUS -- I don't have the ability to create my own separate post here at the top of this thread so I am doing that in this ADMIN edit. I am moving all discussion of issues of the use of AI in two blog posts I generated in late March 2026 (of course it's applicable far beyond those) to this thread. I am posting in those original threads links to this thread. The original discussion threads for those articles should be used for discussing substantive comments, criticisms, changes, etc. Issues of the use of AI apply to both and should be made here in this thread entitled "Revisiting Issues of The Use of AI in Epicurean Philosophy"

Thread

Revisiting Issues of The Use of AI in Epicurean Philosophy

ADMIN NOTE BY CASSIUS -- I don't have the ability to create my own post so as to explain this thread so I am doing so in this ADMIN edit. I am moving all discussion of issues of the use of AI in two blog posts I generated in late March 2026 (of course it's applicable far beyond those) to this thread. I am posting in those original threads links to this thread. The original discussion threads for those articles should be used for discussing substantive comments, criticisms, changes, etc. …

Cassius

March 24, 2026 at 9:26 PM

This thread is being used to consolidate renewed discussion of AI in late March / early April 2026.

Quote from Don

If the goal is Epicurean evangelism and the argument is that those ends justify any means, that path leads down eventually (and admittedly hyperbolically) to Epicurean-prompted bots posting endlessly to FB, X, Instagram, etc., and replying algorithmically to human generated questions and comments, just to get the message out.

From my perspective, Epicurean philosophy is a human-centered philosophy based in human senses and human feelings and human reason in response to the natural, material world as humans experience it. Generative AI removes the human element from creative work, and the human element is what gives authenticity to what's expressed in those creations.

I think this does a pretty good job of identifying the issues I am currently considering.

And it immediately evokes in my mind the hypothetical of the "experience machine" and the issues involved in PD10.

The world is currently going through changes that probably are going to exceed that of the industrial revolution. It's commonplace to see movies and articles talking about AI leading to mass population reduction and worse.

Quote

Generative AI removes the human element from creative work, and the human element is what gives authenticity to what's expressed in those creations.

This is the question that is often posed and while I am still thinking it through I don't think I actually or can afford to agree. As to actuality, it doesn't "remove" the human element - it's a tool. And as for practicality, the forces arrayed against "us" - meaning against those who support living according to Epicurean philosophy - are too great to unilaterally disarm and give up this tool, which at the moment I see likely to become necessary forself-preservation.

Quote from Don

that path leads down eventually (and admittedly hyperbolically) to Epicurean-prompted bots posting endlessly to FB, X, Instagram, etc., and replying algorithmically to human generated questions and comments, just to get the message out.

And would that necessarily be a bad thing? Once again the considerations of PD10 apply - if there are methods by which we actually succeed in establishing and preserving an actual community of living Epicureans. would we say "Nah that's not worth the use of AI to do so because I find it makes me uneasy / is despicable"?

The question keeps asking itself over and over in different ways. As I see it, there's no way to get around asking "What is the ACTUAL result of the use of any tool or method - including AI?

At least at the moment my personal answer is that it doesn't make any difference who or what or how a presentation that is accurate, well-expressed, and persuasive is produced. If it meets those tests then it is useful no matter who or how produced. if it doesn't meet those test, then it makes no difference who produced it or how. The only ultimate test is "What happens if we pursue this course of action vs what happens if we don't?"

No doubt different people are going to make different predictions about that result, but I don't think it is justifiable to draw a red line because as we all agree in Epicurean philosophy there is no "fate," and I doubt anyone can justify concluding that every aspect of AI is one of "necessity."

Quote from Don

That summarizes my feelings. No AI was used in the composition of this post (unless you count spell-check and using a swipe keyboard on my phone).

Happy Birthday to Kappa! Learn more about Kappa and say happy birthday on Kappa's timeline: Kappa

At the moment I don't have much more to say about the specifics of labeling, but I do want to share a recent conversation elsewhere which has greatly influenced my thinking on this subject. For those who don't follow the link here's the thumbnail:

HaikuOS is an independent operating system deriving from the old "Be" computer company which folded 20+ years ago. A group of enthusiasts has kept it alive all these years since then, but progress in implementing new application software has been very slow. The following thread was started by a developer there who wanted to use AI to accelerate the pace of development. The thread exploded into harsh division between those who argue for the non-AI-purity of hand coding vs those who think AI is the way to accelerate development of the OS. While there are many differences in context the basic issue of "let's get the job done" vs "every line of code must be done by humans" has some basic analogies to our situation. Without AI the goals of the project might never be accomplished. With AI there are obvious hazards that need to be accounted for. This thread illustrates how the issues involved in AI can lead to absolutist positions on either side of the AI question which need to be avoided.

[TUTORIAL] How to install Claude Code on Haiku – because apparently waiting twenty years wasn't enough

▶ Moderated but left up for historical purposes (Slanderous strawman arguments) Here’s how to install Claude Code on Haiku. 1. Install Node.js and npm via…

discuss.haiku-os.org

Note -- In order to appreciate the context of Tau Phi's post 14, this earlier post is essential context.

Tau Phi I will think you have adequately stated your position as to any AI in this thread here. If you have some substantive criticism of the article please add it too.

I am going to certainly consider your position but I don't expect to require labeling of each and every post or article as involving AI no matter what level of involvement it has.

As I see it the job of presenting and promoting Epicurean philosophy is to express Epicurean ideas clearly and accurately. Holding the line against all AI under any circumstances is not consistent with that goal, and in fact an absolutist position against it would stand in the way of that goal.

Thank you Dave let me be clear as to the organization of the articles and address what some no doubt are wondering:

In these two articles I have taken my draft outline as well as prior articles I've written on these topics and input the mix to AI to help structure the organization and presentation. After I get a second draft I have then edited all phrasing to be sure that I can personally stand by the wording 100%.

I see this as similar to the AI art that I've included with each article. There is no way I could myself produce such artwork without AI assistance, and yet the subject of the graphic is what I dictate it to be and the result is something that I am willing to stand by and significantly enhances the article.

No doubt there will be those who say that the result is "slop" and should be rejected out of hand because AI was involved in the composition. That's a criticism I am willing to take given that (1) the result takes my own points and arguments, and (2) the articles make no other points than what I myself am directing. Everything in these articles has been discussed numerous times in many ways in both articles here and on the podcast.

As for places of publication, for now I think I'm probably going to just let nature (and Facebook, X, and Substack) take their course on that. I see that as kind of like the issue of debates. At this point in my life my contribution to the team effort doesn't involve making myself a brand name or personality. My contribution (if any) is that of organizing material and calling it to the attention of others who can hopefully then take it to another level. That's a goal and a process in which I'm happy to take any assistance (alive or artificial) I can find.

As usual you are raising issues I think a lot about so thanks for the input.

Martin it looks to me like I mention Kant once in the article, in a sentence that is focused on rejection of the senses:

Quote

On one side stands a tradition stretching from Plato through the Stoics, through medieval theology, through Kant, and into much of modern religion and academic philosophy: the view that what is genuinely real must be eternal, unchanging, and accessible not through the senses but through some higher faculty — pure reason, divine revelation, or the intellectual intuition of necessary truths.

I don't see that sentence as significantly a problem for the article's credibility. Of all the murkiness that surrounds Kant his rejection of sensation as a sufficient basis for considering this world of sensation as reality justifies including him in the general trend which is the focus of the article. For example I see in "Twilight of the Idols" that Nietzsche wrote:

If you see something specific or see other aspects of the article you'd like me to consider revising please let me know as I value your input and will include it as I consider revisions.

This will be the discussion thread for the blog article "Reality Does Not Require Being Eternally The Same" -

Blog Article

Reality Does Not Require Being Always The Same

This post is also available on Substack.

One of the deepest and most consequential divisions in the history of philosophy runs not between optimism and pessimism, or between free will and determinism, but between two fundamentally different answers to a single question: what makes something real?

On one side stands a tradition stretching from Plato through the Stoics, through medieval theology, through Kant, and into much of modern religion and academic philosophy: the view that what is genuinely…

Cassius

March 31, 2026 at 10:24 AM

I presume that the terms physics and metaphysics were available in both Greek and Latin, and the original Epicureans and then later the Romans could have established patterns of when to use each in discussing Epicurean philosophy.

Quote from Joshua

All of that is to say that I do not favor a change in nomenclature.

If anyone has an opinion or summary of what they think actually was the case (i.e., how often did Epicurus refer to one word or the other, or how often does Cicero or Seneca or Plutarch use them) that would be interesting to know.

This search of "metaphysics" at B&N does bring up what seems to be a majority of technical philosophy books, such as by Heidegger, but also some religion, and I see one on "Tarot." Glancing over the titles reminds me that to the extent I would have been in this section of B&N in the past I would have found the titles to give off a very "bad vibe." I would likely have lumped it all in as abstract nonsense that always in the past kept me from spending more time with philosophy.

So Eikadistes I'm not sure that statistically speaking the aura of being labeled like alchemy is justified, but practically speaking I sense you are correct (again, at least in the USA and among "normal people.")

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/metaphysics?Nrpp=20&Ns=P_Sales_Rank%7C0&page=8

Edit: the results at Amazon are more clearly weighted toward the alchemy side of things.

Edit2: thinking further about the book titles, i suspect the term "metaphysics" might also evoke in the mind of many people the very negative "obsolete/ancient/medieval physics."

Quote from Eikadistes

After all, the Garden "supposes the study of nature provides the proper space for the voices of the facts."

Sounds like you have a particular reference in mind there Eikadistes?

Quote from Eikadistes

Barnes & Noble uses the word to advertise something closer to "magic" or "alchemy".

Thanks for that reminder. Now that you say it, I think over the years that's where I sense a strongly negative vibe from the word. It seems to be usable in philosophy in a more neutral way, but I'm concerned about how "normal people" interpret it. In many cases it probably doesn't evoke any reaction at all and it's mainly just an unfamiliar word, but the intelligent "middle class" that might have heard of it from bookstores might well attach it to "alchemy' or even "witchcraft."

This might be an American take and not have the same effect in Europe.

Joshua this is something for us to keep in mind for the podcast.