REMINDER: SUNDAY WEEKLY ZOOM - March 1, 2026 -12:30 PM EDT - Ancient text study and discussion: De Rerum Natura - Starting at Line 184 - Level 03 members and above (and Level 02 by Admin. approval) - read more info on it here.
I have not previously seen this and have not finished reading it but it contains a lot of good research that should be helpful. And as you might infer from the fact that I am saying positive things about it, it does not take the position that Epicureans should be hermits!
Slide For This Week's Book Review:
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/epicurean-op…ts-335486799047
In our discussion for this week Joshua mentions that Jefferson made some extensive notes on Frances Wright (or was it AFDIA in particular?) in one of his "commonplace books" and that it would be interesting to look that up.
Haven't had much time to pursue this but here are some links:
Episode 120 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. Today we continue in the Letter to Herodotus to discuss the issue of infinite divisibility of atoms. Please let us know any comments or questions you have in the thread below, and please be sure to subscribe to the podcast on your telephone or other podcast aggregator.
How many times have we heard of men and women in their 70s beginning to enjoy retirement and then their natural end has come?
I agree with both posts above and when we think about the choice to approach life cheerfully or sadly, we can always remember that death is inevitable, and we don't get an extension of time for the period we spend moping around feeling sad. The end comes too soon whether we've spent our time cheerfully or not, so to the best of our ability we need to spend time as enjoyably as we can.
If that truly expresses his full view then he was truly an idiot, so I wonder what else he held to explain how he himself lived long enough to be remembered as a philosopher. Perhaps some expansive view of what it means to focus on the present moment.
I don't recall that his memory includes him being a supreme hypocrite(?)
I have to wonder too. I've lived that lifestyle it just eventually leads to a lot of pain.
And whenever a person or group is represented by a prevailing majority as having a position that seems so counterintuitive as to be apparently impossible for a sane person to believe, I tend to want to look more closely to see if the fault is in the accused, or the accuser! 
The only caveat for readers of this forum that I'd add is that all pleasure is (a) good (feeling), *but* not all pleasure (good feeling) is choiceworthy.
Yes. The issue that some people still stumble over, despite the clarity of that sentence, is that "choiceworthy" is not an objective standard either. Phrasing with words like "worthy" rings of Stoic / absolute flavor, but only the person having the experience can decide whether it is choiceworthy - whether the pleasure that will be obtained is worth the pain that will be required. We can make generalizations and predictions about consequences, but there's no supernatural or objective standard that tells everyone to make the same decision. One man's trash is another man's treasure.
Context and consequences are also fundamental parts of Epicurus's philosophy.
And that's the reason only the the person experiencing the pain or pleasure is in a position to make the decision on how to choose between actions.
"If it feels good, do it" is Cyrenaic.
I have to wonder if even the Cyrenaics were so short-sighted. Wish we had more texts from them too.
You know it would probably be an interesting topic to discuss: Which therapies for depression and similar conditions *are* most consistent with Epicurean philosophy?
Good to hear from you Eoghan!
Really the best we can do is to take prudent actions to maximize our pleasure and minimize our pain in pursuit of a pleasant life, which it seems like you're doing. So, damn the statistics! Full speed ahead!
Exactly. By finding your way to EpicureanFriends you have already shown that you are capable of finding a true "needle-in-the-haystack" in the world of philosophy. That proves already that you have the ability to beat odds that have been stacked for 2000+ years! 
For indeed who, think you, is a better man than he who holds reverent opinions concerning the gods, and is at all times free from fear of death, and has reasoned out the end ordained by nature? He understands that the limit of good things is easy to fulfill and easy to attain, whereas the course of ills is either short in time or slight in pain; he laughs at (destiny), whom some have introduced as the mistress of all things. (He thinks that with us lies the chief power in determining events, some of which happen by necessity) and some by chance, and some are within our control; for while necessity cannot be called to account, he sees that chance is inconstant, but that which is in our control is subject to no master, and to it are naturally attached praise and blame.
For, indeed, it were better to follow the myths about the gods than to become a slave to the destiny of the natural philosophers: for the former suggests a hope of placating the gods by worship, whereas the latter involves a necessity which knows no placation.As to chance, he does not regard it as a god as most men do (for in a god’s acts there is no disorder), nor as an uncertain cause (of all things) for he does not believe that good and evil are given by chance to man for the framing of a blessed life, but that opportunities for great good and great evil are afforded by it. He therefore thinks it better to be unfortunate in reasonable action than to prosper in unreason. For it is better in a man’s actions that what is well chosen (should fail, rather than that what is ill chosen) should be successful owing to chance.
34. The use of friends is not that they are useful, but that we can trust in their usefulness.
We really need Nate to expand his book of alternate translations to the Vatican Sayings, but there aren't that many to choose from.
Is that St Andre? In this case the term "use" strikes me as a little utilitarian, and the Bailey's "help" may ring a little more friendly:
VS34. It is not so much our friends' help that helps us, as it is the confidence of their help.
This is a draft already in process of revision but posted here for talking purposes:
For those who are interested in expanding their circle of friends who are interested in the philosophy of Epicurus, a new Zoom-based online "live" discussion group is in the process of forming, and this is your invitation to consider participating.
The group is being sponsored by several regular participants of both this Epicurean Philosophy Facebook Group and the EpicureanFriends.com forum. Our goal is to provide an opportunity for those who are sincerely interested in Epicurean philosophy to extend their circle of friends in a safe and structured but hopefully creative way.
Those who are familiar with Zoom are probably aware of its "Waiting Room" feature, and what we plan to do is to open up each meeting to everyone who has asked to attend and "registered" by messaging ahead and letting us know their desired user name. We plan to make registration and attendance available beyond those who are members of Facebook and Reddit and similar platforms, so we will maintain a master list of usernames independent of Facebook or other social media platform, and we will admit participants to each meeting according to their username.
Use of video is optional, and for the safety of all users we expect that many or most will choose not to use video, and that they will remain anonymous to whatever extent they prefer.
We plan to go for an hour each evening, and we have been discussing a series of formats that we will fine-tune over time. Each week, however, will follow essentially this format:
(1) Welcome: We'll go "around the table" and let each participant identify themselves as they wish, hopefully including a reference to their background and level of interest in Epicurus.
(2) Thought For The Week: Each week we will take one of the Principal Doctrines (and when we finish those, proceed to the Vatican List of Sayings) and we will have someone read the saying followed by commentary by a couple of our regulars to set the stage for further discussion. We'll then open the floor to comments by other participants (using the "raise hand" method and/or the text chat to raise an issue). We'll continue that discussion for as long as it goes but plan to cut that off around the 40 minute mark.
(3) Special Event: At the forty-minute mark we will shift to the special event of the week, which we are currently thinking of scheduling as follows:
Week One - Questions from the Floor - Bring your questions on any topic related to Epicurus that you wish.
Week Two - Living As An Epicurean in The Modern World - We will talk about things like cooking, gardening, movies, music as these relate to creating pleasurable living.
Week Three - Epicurean Favorits Art / Music Discussion - Bring music (e.g. a YouTube link) or a poem or short writing that you think best represents some part of EP, to share with the group and discuss
Week Four - Sharing Epicurean Ideas In The Modern World - Discuss ideas for engagement with people who don't know Epicurean Philosophy but who might be open to discussing it.
(4) Closing Wrap-Up - The Program coordinators will thank those who have participated and make concluding comments about what has been discussed, and what we can expect for next week, and how people can communicate and coordinate their study of Epicurean philosophy in the meantime.
- Our objective is to provide friendly, supportive, and encouraging discussion among friends who are generally supportive of the philosophy of Epicurus. This is not a professional academic philosophy group for argument or intense debate of opposing philosophies or viewpoints. It is also not a professional clinical group aimed at the treatment of depression or any emotional disorders.
- We expect participants to conduct themselves as actual or potential friends. Participation does not express or imply that you agree with every tenet of Epicurean philosophy, but the purpose of the group is to study and discuss **Epicurean** philosophy. Please do not attempt to use the group for the promotion of viewpoints that are not consistent with Epicurean philosophy. Those who fail to follow this rule will be politely reminded of it for a time, but repeat offendors will eventually lose participation privileges after multiple violations.
- All communications in the discussion group are to be considered confidential and not repeated outside the group. The group is based in the United States and will not allow or promote any conduct illegal under the laws of the United States. We cannot guarantee the privacy of any communications, but recording or reposting of conversations outside the group, or invasions of the privacy of participants, will be grounds for dismissal from the group.
- Please direct questions or comments to our special email address / messenger group at: TO BE DETERMINED (Session? Teleguard? EpicureanFriends? Preferably something that allows for anonymous signup. I question whether we want to use EpicureanFriends for this because I probably want to keep the participation agreement more rigorous than this one.)
I forgot a couple of very basic points that I should have included in what I posted earlier in this thread:
Maybe the most important aspect of the value of Epicurean philosophy is that it addresses the question of whether living happily is even *possible*!
If you believe that an arbitrary and capricious god is lurking behind every corner to punish you, then it is not going to be possible for you to live as happily as you could otherwise.
If you believe that you're going to burn in hell, or miss out on heaven, depending on whether you follow an arbitrary set of rules that you can't really live up to, then then it is not going to be possible for you to live as happily as you could otherwise.
If you think there are absolute standards written in the stars to which you have to conform, but don't want to conform to, then then it is not going to be possible for you to live as happily as you could otherwise.
If you think that there is a "Fate" the guarantees that you're going to be unhappy, then then it is not going to be possible for you to live as happily as you could otherwise.
If you think that your mind is a billiard ball and that every thought and action you take have been predetermined from the beginning of time, and that nothing you choose to do yourself can have any impact on your future to change it for the better, then then it is not going to be possible for you to live as happily as you could otherwise.
If you think that the atomic flux moves so fast that there's no way you can ever grasp with confidence anything going on around you, then then it is not going to be possible for you to live as happily as you could otherwise.
If you think that your senses are hopelessly inadequate to the task of determining anything with confidence, then then it is not going to be possible for you to live as happily as you could otherwise.
If you think that no knowledge of any kind is possible on any subject, no matter how close to you or important to you, then then it is not going to be possible for you to live as happily as you could otherwise.
If you think that pain is such a huge part of normal life that it overwhelms you, and that the best you can do is grasp scraps of happiness that last for only moments amid long expanses of agony, then then it is not going to be possible for you to live as happily as you could otherwise.
I bet I have missed some big ones in that list, but that's why we start at the principles of the "Epicurean Worldview" and then move to applications of these principles to our individual circumstances.
To close out this post we need to remember too that "possible" does not mean "guaranteed." It's also possible in life that you get struck by lightning, or a meteor, or a drunk driver, or cancer -- there are many things that are in fact beyond your control, so it is not in the power of any philosophy - even Epicurus - to *guarantee* a long and happy life.
But better by far than any other worldview or system, I like the odds of success that come from following Epicurus' views on how to tackle the issue of happiness and go after it.
I’ve realized through this discussion that between Epicureanism and neuroscience there’s a whole lot of interesting questions about the function of the senses.
And there's this constant crossover between the observation of "how they function" as opposed to drawing conclusions from those observations.
That's of course a deep philosophical discussion in itself, but I think it's worth noting that no matter how much progress we make in unwinding the "how" in terms of the biological or electrical or whatever processes we dig into, there's always another level of "how" that goes deeper than our current understanding.
I say that to emphasize that a lot of people seem to think that just by peeling back another layer of the "how" we'll be making a lot of progress when we observe a deeper level (there is some really good material in Frances Wright on this issue). And in a sense new observation does generally help us, but no matter how far we dig into the "how" we're always going to have to make some higher-level conclusions about our "world-view" with less information than we would like to have. We would "live" to be omniscient and know everything about everything, but we never will.
We therefore have to be intelligent about what we can expect to know, and what attitude to take toward the uncertainties, and that is where Epicurus takes a very different approach from most others. And I think it's there at that level that Epicurus plants his flag as "Pleasure" - which is very necessary and helpful as a flag and a high-level view, but which shouldn't be confused with a clinical description or prescription for a "pill" to take at a particular moment. Because Epicurus might well listen to a person's story and their particular set of problems and prescribe something that leads first to "Pain" before only later leading to "Pleasure."
I think I'm beating the proverbial dead horse now but I've seen this issue arise over and over and over and I think it helps to nail it down early in the study of Epicurus.
Those who come to Epicurus looking for immediate Pleasure will be disappointed if they find out (as many of them will) that they will be required to undergo the Pain that will come from putting aside deeply-held errors about the way the world works.
It would be nice to collect some pithy sayings that illustrate this point -- to the effect that
"If you're not sure where you're going, you can't get there simply by walking faster!"
There must be millions of sayings that illustrate how doubling down on current activities - or just "fine-tuning" them or "getting therapy" for them is a dead end.
Something about the definition of insanity being doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?
I think a kind of "therapy" can come out of a worldview -- which for Epicureanism is enjoyment of life and friendships which support the enjoyment of life.
Since we are trying to drill down and be as precise as possible, and I have spent years seeing people be obtuse about this and confuse the end and the means, let me reword that syntax to be absolutely clear which is the worldview and which is the therapy:
I think out of the Epicurean worldview - which is a view of the nature of the universe that is entirely devoid of supernatural aspects, a view of the nature of knowledge that conveys what can be expected of it and how it is acquired, and a view of the nature of a proper ethics that is not absolute but based on pleasure as the guide of life -- can come a kind of "therapy" -- which includes the pursuit of compatible friends, living prudently, studying nature, communicating with frankness, weighing pleasures and pains arising from each choice and avoidance, and maintaining proper attitudes toward "divinity" - among many other things!
An example of practical Epicurean advice for fixing problems and not just "coping" ->
PD27. Of all the things which wisdom acquires to produce the blessedness of the complete life, far the greatest is the possession of friendship.
It is hard to say how the idea within my mind of a particular story regarding the "best life" or the kind of life that will be most pleasurable, came to be. Perhaps it was past moments of a time in which everything seemed right in my life, but now my life is different and uncertain. My particular idea -- sort of a life "recipe" for happiness -- may never come to be again.
So it seems that I may have to settle for a lesser recipe -- one which is rather bland -- no salt or spices -- sure I won't keel over and die -- and maybe I will at times find pleasure. But I suppose this is why some people end up in Buddhism and doing meditation.
Most of the time when I hear people say things like this I think one appropriate response is:
You yourself are the only person who can decide how best to spend your time and what goals are appropriate. Epicurus can tell you about the nature of the universe and what is realistic to expect, but your particular situation is unique to you and you yourself have to think through the best course of action given those circumstances. There is no single "best life" for everyone, and it takes pain to achieve many pleasures, so only you can decide what course to take.
That's a bitter pill for some people to swallow, and maybe that's what you mean by "why some people end up in Buddhism" as a method of coping with that. But that's the nature of the universe (at least in Epicurean terms) so we all have to act as best we can with that sense of reality.
