Welcome to Episode 303 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.
This week we continue covering Cicero's "Tusculan Disputations" from an Epicurean perspective and we move into Section XXI to address a particularly important challenge from Cicero:
How do we advocate the Epicurean position in public gatherings?
But these men behave with too much heat, especially as the opinions which they would uphold are no very spirited ones, and such as they dare not plead for either in the senate, or before the assembly of the people, or before the army, or the censors: but, however, I will argue with them another time, and with such a disposition that no quarrel shall arise between us; for I shall be ready to yield to their opinions when founded on truth. Only I must give them this advice: That were it ever so true, that a wise man regards nothing but the body; or, to express myself with more decency, never does anything except what is expedient, and views all things with exclusive reference to his own advantage; as such things are not very commendable, they should confine them to their own breasts, and leave off talking with that parade of them.
Comments on this episode:
1 - Joshua stresses that Cicero seems to object to Epicurus' labeling of pain as evil even more than he objects to labeling pleasure as good.
But suppose we are mistaken as to his pleasure, are we so too as to his pain? I maintain therefore the impropriety of language which that man uses when talking of virtue, who would measure every great evil by pain?"
Yes a good topic, and something to correlate with the observation that to my knowledge none of the statues of Epicurus or any other Epicurean shows them smiling, but rather more serious or, in the case of Epicurus, intense.
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Lucretius 4-462
Wondrously many other things of this sort we see, all of which would fain spoil our trust in the senses; all in vain, since the greatest part of these things deceives us on account of the opinions of the mind, which we add ourselves, so that things not seen by the senses are counted as seen. For nothing is harder than to distinguish things manifest from things uncertain, which the mind straightway adds of itself.
I think the posts above have done a good job of responding to the size of the sun concern, so I'll add only how I fit all this together in my mind:
Epicurus' main concern was fighting against those who think that their minds can impose their will and take precedence over nature. All "measurement" issues essentially come down to imposing units of measure that we construct in our own minds, and the confusion arises when we begin to think that our mental processes are superior to reality. Thus the ultimate issue to Epicurus was not to be a technician and measure things by a certain number of units, but to point out that units are our construction, and we should always follow nature, not our own constructions.
As to particles being open to "infinite division," that can be dismissed as a possibility because if things could be divided infinitely there would never be anything firm which maintains its own properties, but we see that properties do have regularity, so infinite divisibility is impossible.
As to possibility of particles being "infinitely large," the reverse is the case, because an infinitely large particle would consume the universe, and we also see that that is not so.
As to the universe as a whole being bounded in size, that is also not possible definitionally, because being bounded means there is an edge, and there can be no edge where there is "nothing" on the other side.
Time likewise is not measured in units except as to our imposing an arbitrary measure on it, and for that purpose any arbitrary measurement such as we commonly use (days, hours, minutes) is suitable, just so long as you don't get the idea that those units are established and enforced by nature.
As to the size of the sun, the answers such as Eikadistes gave seems to me to be correct.
The important thing to Epicurus is not to establish a specific measurement, but to make a properly-understood "man is the measurer of all things" point that all measurements are arbitrarily assigned by us, and to have any usefulness must be in accord with our sensations, as our sensations ("how things appear to be") are ultimately all we have to work with. We use our minds to analyze "illusory" phenomena such as discussed at length in Lucretius Book 4, but the constant problem is that we begin to think that our minds are the authority rather than the data we receive from the senses.
There's nothing more important than to keep in mind that we are not the masters of nature. Nature is the mother of all things, and we have to constantly fight the temptation to think that we can change that.
"The sun is the size that it appears to be" is a way of reinforcing that lesson in very stark terms. It's so effective that we're still debating it two thousand years later.
I don't agree with every detail of the Gellar-Goad article but I think he's correct that Epicurus tended to like to use very confrontational statements like this. We tend to see them in every important area of the philosophy, physics, canonics, and ethics.
VS29. (Bailey) “In investigating nature I would prefer to speak openly and like an oracle to give answers serviceable to all mankind, even though no one should understand me, rather than to conform to popular opinions and so win the praise freely scattered by the mob.”
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Welcome Webernys and I apologize for the delay in getting you approved! I don't have record of your original email so I am not sure what happened there but thank you for being persistent, and please let us know a little about your interest in Epicurus.
Welcome wbernys !
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Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.
This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.
Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.
All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.
One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.
You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.
We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.
"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.
It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.
And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.
(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).
Welcome to the forum!
Welcome Yonder! Here's a little of why we were glad to approve Yonder's account!
I came across your site while tracking down online resources for college students. Looks good! ...In grad school I studied ancient political theory among groups that imagined themselves as members of a commonwealth other than that of the existing state. Epicurus' teachings on friendship and the oikos as a model of sociality were not only interesting but inspiring. I'm grateful that so many people these days are interested!
Welcome yonder !
There is one last step to complete your registration:
All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).
You must post your response within 24 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.
Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.
This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.
Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.
All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.
One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.
You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.
We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.
"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.
It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.
And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.
(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).
Welcome to the forum!
One of the things that I wanted to note as a result of this conversation is that Raphael asked us to hold a session at some point on how we might reconstruct practices / habits / techniques / routines that would be of use in applying Epicurean philosophy.
We've touched on that many times over the years but haven't recently generated an up-to-date outline. There's unfortunately a lot of speculation and subjective opinion in any such list, but yes that will be a good project so I'll work toward that goal.
Thanks for letting us know Robert - have a safe trip!
My response to the poster at Facebook.
Samuel --
Thank you very much for referring this video to us! As you say it is very interesting and well researched. I watched it using the AI generated English version, and it's very listenable, although I am sure you are right that much subtlety is lost. I am very glad to see such a long and professionally-made video devoted to Epicurus.
I would recommend that everyone who takes Epicurus seriously watch this video, but be warned, I would *not* say that "the only possible downside
is that it is in French." There are many more downsides which I will touch on here.
The primary downside is what people sometimes express as "Don't confuse me with facts." This video covers a lot of facts - many citations from the texts that are accurate and well documented. But the end result of the total video package will be much more confusion than clarity.
The trouble is that the video paints over the facts of the text with a thick layer of pain that portrays of Epicurus as a loutish half-shaven drunkard. The Epicurus presented here relishes making arguments about pleasure that make no sense to any objective listener. And of course the video makes no effort to explain Epicurus' full position, but instead shows him deteriorating into drunkenness and physical illness to match the intended stereotype: that Epicurus' depraved lifestyle led directly to a painful and tragic end.
This video is shot through and through with the "Buddhist/Stoic" interpretation of Epicurus. The video implies that Epicurus held all desire to be pain, with the result that making the best of life means lowering all your standards to the lowest possible level -- which of course in this cynical view is the only way you can ensure you will never be disappointed. And of course in this Buddhist-lite viewpoint there's nothing worse than pain -- even though Epicurus specifically stated in his letter to Menoeceus that we will regular choose painful actions when those choices lead to more pleasure in the end. That very clear statement is of course omitted from this video, as is all other explanation of how Epicurus did not narrow the definition of pleasure, but widen it.
This video is the popular "joy through simplicity and decadence" viewpoint that even the ancient opponents of Epicurus like Cicero and Plutarch dared not make. Cicero and Plutarch and other ancient opponents did not advance this argument because they knew better. They knew his actual teachings, and they knew that the Epicurus never set as goal the attainment of minimal living or the lowest possible amount of pleasure. Instead, Epicurus emphasized that he "would not know the meaning of 'good'" without the stimulative pleasures of the body and the mind.
Cicero and Plutarch argued instead that Epicurus was contradicting himself, because they knew that Epicurus clearly embraced **both** the pleasures of body and of mind. Modern interpreters omit what the ancient world clearly knew, and they rewrite Epicurus as a total ascetic who is best pictured as a sloppy and obnoxious college dropout sitting as if at a toga party overdosing on drugs and alcohol, rather than as an energetic and serious philosopher advocating a revolutionary but positive view of existence.
Rather than turn this comment into an essay of its own, that "vision" issue is the objection I would stress the most. I enjoy humor as much as anyone, and it's wrong to take this video too seriously. But the vast majority of people who don't know the details will assume that the model of an Epicurean today should be the obnoxious toga-party dropout who spouts nonsense that he clearly doesn't really believe himself. Nothing could be further from the truth.
That's not what Epicurus was about, and this video adds to the unfair portrayals of Epicurus throughout history. But Cicero's and Plutarch's attacks against Epicurus boomeranged against them, in that they preserved Epicurus' true sayings even while other opponents were burning them. Likewise, this video does bring together many of Epicurus' actual statements, even if placed in a false context. If you take the time to do the research into how Epicurus's statements were understood in the ancient world, you will see that Epicurus was the opposite of the buffoon portrayed here. The modern Epicurean will do just what the ancient Epicurean did: he or she will take life seriously and make the very best of the time we have.
If you look at this portrayal of Epicurus and say "right on, I dig that," then ironically you ought to be reading Buddhism or Stoicism. There you'll find a truly consistent path to simple and ascetic living, and you won't have to worry about the texts of Epicurus which directly contradict that viewpoint.
On the contrary, I hope many who watch this will see past the superficial perspective of this video. The best course is to look back into the ancient texts themselves. If you then consider the serious and energetic and accomplished lives lived by the leading ancient Epicureans under the influence of these texts, you'll conclude that the model of Epicurus portrayed in this video is nonsense.
But to close, thanks again for posting this Samuel! The best way to understand Epicurus is to confront these issues head-on, and this video is extremely helpful for those who want to do that. Sometimes even when you look at a false picture you're then inspired to search for the truth.
We've just had this video submitted by a participant at the Facebook group. It was originally produced in French but there's been an English overlay added, and it's very understandable. I've prepared a very negative review of it which I will post next, but as I told the poster, this is something I definitely recommend watching. Any long and professional treatment of Epicurus is good for publicity, and as I wrote in my review even though I find lots to object to, the video is very thought-proving. To say the least, this is NOT the view of Epicurus I advocate, but it certainly does dramatize many of the issues in dispute!
(I should also warn you that the video is kind of weird in incorporating an actual commercial (for Infomaniak, apparently a cloud provider) into the flow of the discussion.
Hi, friends! I just watched this funny yet very interesting and well-researched video about Epicurus and his philosophy on a really great philosophy channel called "Monsieur Phi" - it is presented as if the host was interviewing Epicurus.
It was released less than a week ago and it already has ~180k views.
The only possible downside is that it is in French.
But if your French isn't great, you can follow reading the subtitles, using the automatic translation for the subtitles... or, if totally needed, changing the audio version to an AI-generated english-version (which I wouldn't recommend, since a lot of the nuances and jokes might be lost in translation!)
By the end he touches on the subject of the 2,000 yrs old burnt scrolls on Epicurean philosophy that are being digitally reconstructed: https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%…dIHeNqaiggDC3Gg
Great stuff!
Welcome Marcelo!
Marcelo has confirmed his request by writing:
Hi, I have a BA in Physics and a great curiosity in the paths of thinking of Epicurus and the other pre-Socrastics. Therefore, no deep knowledge or quest.
All the best.
Marcelo
Welcome marcelobrasil !
There is one last step to complete your registration:
All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).
You must post your response within 24 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.
Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.
This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.
Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.
All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.
One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.
You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.
We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.
"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.
It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.
And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.
(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).
Welcome to the forum!
Welcome to Episode 302 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.
This week we continue covering Cicero's "Tusculan Disputations" from an Epicurean perspective. We will wrap up several loose ends from last week, complete Section XX, and move forward into XXI.
The loose ends we need to cover are:
1 - Last week we spoke about the difficulty of taking sides in arguments where both sides claim the best of intentions, and even the same intention. This week let's take up the problem of how to proceed with both sides do in fact have good intentions, and let's talk about how to get off the "road to hell" that is paved with good intentions.
2 - We'll extend our discussion from disputes about pleasure to disputes about pain in looking at Cicero's final comment: "But suppose we are mistaken as to his pleasure, are we so too as to his pain? I maintain therefore the impropriety of language which that man uses when talking of virtue, who would measure every great evil by pain?"
As I get this episode finalized I realize that as usual I didn't think fast enough to make a couple of points that need to go along with this topic.
First, as Joshua noted we didn't address Cicero's criticism of associating evil with pain, so we'll address that next week. (Maybe we can spend another week on section 20!)
Second, Joshua mentioned the great difficulty of judging the sincerity and motivation of people who claim to have the same goal but are advocating for very different courses of action. Had I been thinking quickly I would have gone further into that topic, because very frequently both sides of an issue do in fact have what we would consider to be high-minded motivations. There's often no real basis for considering "good faith" to be the test that will allow us to choose between two very different courses of action. As the old saying goes, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."
What we need to expand on is that in addition to looking at "intention" and "good faith," what Epicurus teaches us to do is to be insightful in calculating the actual results of two courses of action. And that's a question of wisdom and prudence that goes far beyond whether someone has "good intentions" in advocating for a point of view.
So we'll come back to that point next week too!
Episode 301 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week our episode is entitled: "Epicurus And The Question Of Ends Justifying Means"
Thank you Patrikios and others!
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