Posts by Don
Listen to the latest Lucretius Today Podcast! Episode 225 is now available. Cicero Argues That A Commitment To Virtue Is A Bar to Pleasure.
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See, this is my issue with relying on translations. In Greek, the three traits/virtues are:
φρονίμως wisely, sensibly, prudently
καλῶς II. regul. adv. καλῶς, mostly in moral sense, well, rightly
δικαίως —adv. -ως, rightly, justly
And Kalōs καλώς can be defined as:
Woodhouse, S. C. (1910) English–Greek Dictionary: A Vocabulary of the Attic Language[1], London: Routledge & Kegan Paul Limited.
admirable idem, page 12.
artistic idem, page 42.
auspicious idem, page 53.
beautiful idem, page 68.
buxom idem, page 107.
capital idem, page 111.
comely idem, page 145.
creditable idem, page 183.
elegant idem, page 265.
estimable idem, page 283.
excellent idem, page 288.
exquisite idem, page 296.
fair idem, page 302.
favourable idem, page 311.
fine idem, page 321.
fortunate idem, page 340.
good idem, page 366.
goodly idem, page 367.
handsome idem, page 383.
happy idem, page 384.
high-principled idem, page 400.
honourable idem, page 405.
hopeful idem, page 405.
lovely idem, page 502.
lucky idem, page 504.
noble idem, page 559.
ornamental idem, page 580.
picturesque idem, page 611.
plausible idem, page 618.
pomantic idem, page 625.
principled idem, page 641.
promising idem, page 653.
propitious idem, page 653.
reputable idem, page 699.
righteous idem, page 715.
skilful idem, page 780.
specious idem, page 799.
spruce idem, page 806.
virtuous idem, page 954.
well-favoured idem, page 974.
So, "morality" is only one Interpretation of that 2nd word.
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See I read that differently. I think he's saying not saying that everyone has to avoid those things completely, but that everyone has to evaluate their circumstances and options and preferences and decide exactly how much partying and fine food is going to be what they wish to pursue - for the more they pursue, if their circumstances do not allow it - the more pain they will suffer in cost. I put key emphasis on the "endless" adjective.
LOL. I don't think we read it that differently in the end in light of your explanation there.
He clearly didn't forbid attendance at drinking parties. He wrote a book entitled Symposium after all.
I too think the emphasis is on the "endless". And it doesn't really say that in the Greek. Here are my notes from my commentary:
οὐ συνείροντες (ou syneirontes) "not stringing together"
"not an endless string of drinking parties and festivals…"
Note that he doesn't say you can't attend drinking parties or take part in village festivals! He's saying life shouldn't be an "endless string" of them. That's going to lead to more pain than pleasure in the end.
συνείρω
only in pres. and imperf.
I. to string together, Lat. connectere, Ar., Plat.
II. to string words together, Dem., etc.: then, seemingly intr. (sub. λόγους) to speak on and on, go on without pausing, Xen.
PS. I still think this whole line of argument from him is a direct refutation of the Cyrenaics.
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Quote from Epicurus
Therefore, whenever we say repeatedly that "pleasure is the τέλος," we do not say the pleasure of those who are prodigal like those who are ignorant, those who don't agree with us, or those who believe wrongly; but we mean that which neither pains the body nor troubles the mind. [132] For it is not an endless string of drinking parties and festivals, and not taking advantage of slaves and women, nor does an extravagant table of fish and other things bring forth a sweet life but self-controlled reasoning and examining the cause of every choice and rejection and driving out the greatest number of opinions that take hold of the mind and bring confusion and trouble.
It seems to me that he's clearly stating that an "endless string" of drinking parties and those others do not fall under his definition when he says "pleasure is the goal/end/telos." He's not being coy or obtuse. When we say this, we don't mean that.
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Ha - I will say on my last reading that I detect some bias in listing "too much frugality" without listing the negative "descending" that is attached to profligacy"
Not intentional bias.
VS63 warns of choosing too much frugality.
The letter to Menoikeus clearly says that "an endless string of drinking parties and festivals" is not how Epicurus defines pleasure.
So... One is looking for pain with too much frugality or too much "sex, drugs, and rock and roll."
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My take has been to understand Epicurus's point as "If your circumstances, for some reason, made it so that you *had* to live in a cave by yourself on the barest of necessities, you *could* find pleasure in that since you're still alive and Nature can supply your necessary needs. BUT it is NOT necessary to live this way. Living among friends, discussing and practicing philosophy, making all your choices and rejections based on practical wisdom and other sound criteria, living neither with too much frugality nor descending into profligacy... That is a pleasurable life."
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For an Epicurean, virtue is one of the tools to experience pleasure.
In Epicurean philosophy, what is virtuous depends on the particular context, whereas in Stoic philosophy, they seem to be rather absolute.
The 4 Stoic virtues are:
- (practical) Wisdom
- Justice
- Temperance
- Courage
For the Stoics these are the only good things, with all others being (preferred or dispreferred) indifferents. The stoics are absolute when it comes to their cardinal (in a non christian sense) values. I think all of these virtues are important for a pleasurable life. I can't be unwise, unjust, without self discipline and a coward and have a happy life.
Are there more or different virtues in Epicureanism than these? If yes, how are they defined?
Thanks for bringing your thread back around to the Stoic/Epicurean question. My first thought when reading the list of virtues was Principal Doctrine 5:
Quote from Epicurean Principal Doctrines5 Οὐκ ἔστιν ἡδέως ζῆν ἄνευ τοῦ φρονίμως καὶ καλῶς καὶ δικαίως <οὐδὲ φρονίμως καὶ καλῶς καὶ δικαίως> ἄνευ τοῦ ἡδέως· ὅτῳ δ᾽ ἕν τούτων μὴ ὑπάρχει οἷον ζῆν φρονίμως, καὶ καλῶς καὶ δικαίως ὑπάρχει, οὐκ ἔστι τοῦτον ἡδέως ζῆν.
ἄνευ + gen = without
φρονίμως wisely, sensibly, prudently
καλῶς II. regul. adv. καλῶς, mostly in moral sense, well, rightly
δικαίως —adv. -ως, rightly, justly
ἡδέως pleasantly < ἡδονή
My translation: PD5 It is not possible to live a pleasurable life without the traits of (practical) wisdom, morality, and justice; and it is impossible to live with wisdom, morality, and justice without living pleasurably. When one of these is lacking, it is impossible to live a pleasurable life.
Consider in light of Fragment 519: The greatest fruit of justice is serenity. δικαιοσύνης καρπὸς μέγιστος ἀταραξία.
Epicurus clearly thinks the "virtues" are important, but they are important because they are instrumental to achieving a pleasurable life and not as ends or goals for their own sake.
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(Wondering if maybe we need to move some of these posts to a new thread, since this was originally a thread for Kungi.)
Agree with Kalosyni on that.
Additionally, I advocate getting away from the natural and "unnatural" descriptors. There are natural desires - those arising from nature - and those that are not natural arising from fruitless, void, groundless, empty beliefs. They are κεναί:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…57:entry=keno/s That's a much better description of what they are than unnatural. Unnatural implies they are somehow not human. They are unfortunately very human desires, but they're empty of substance and can never be satiated.
This is the exact same word Epicurus uses to name the "void" in "atoms and void." He's saying that there is literally nothing there to back up the desire. The void is the absence of atoms. It is the empty space within which the atoms move.
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It would all depend on what is considered necessary for happiness.
Here's my take from my translation of the last part of section 127 of the letter to Menoikeus made into a bulleted list:
"Furthermore, ...
- on the one hand, there are the natural desires
- on the other, the 'empty, fruitless, or vain ones.'
- And of the natural ones,
- on the one hand, are the necessary ones;
- on the other, the ones which are only natural;
- then, of the necessary ones:
- on the one hand, those necessary for eudaimonia;
- then, those necessary for the freedom from disturbance for the body;
- then those necessary for life itself."
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I imagine this may sound like nitpicking
Doesn't sound like nitpicking to me
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If anyone is curious from our last 20th get together, here is the play by Aristophanes entitled Wealth (Πλούτος , Plutus is the Latinized spelling since, evidently, *everything* has to be spelled like the Romans did it )
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PD15 Ὁ τῆς φύσεως πλοῦτος καὶ ὥρισται καὶ εὐπόριστός ἐστιν· ὁ δὲ τῶν κενῶν δοξῶν εἰς ἄπειρον ἐκπίπτει.
- Πλούτος wealth, riches
- ὥρισται (verb 3rd sg perf ind mp redupl) divide, limit
- εὐπόριστός easy to procure
- ὁ τῶν κενῶν δοξῶν empty beliefs
- ἄπειρον boundless, infinite (same word to describe the extent of the universe)
ἐκπίπτω
- 1. to fall out of a chariot, c. gen., Hom., etc.; c. dat. pers., τόξον δέ οἱ ἔκπεσε χειρός Il.
- 2. of seafaring men, to be thrown ashore, Lat. ejici, Od., Hdt., etc.: of things, to suffer shipwreck, Xen.
- 3. to fall from a thing, i. e. be deprived of it, Lat. excidere, τινός or ἔκ τινος Aesch., etc.
- 4. to be driven out, of persons banished, Hdt., etc.
- 5. to go out or forth, sally out, id=Hdt., Xen.
- 6. to come out, of votes, id=Xen.
- 7. to escape, Thuc.
- 8. of oracles, to issue from the sanctuary, be imparted, Luc.
- 9. to depart from, digress, Xen., Aeschin.
- to fall off, come to naught, NTest.
- 11. of actors, to be hissed off the stage, Lat. explodi, Dem.
- fut. -πεσοῦμαι
- aor2 ἐξέπεσον
- Nature's treasure has boundaries and is easy to procure; the riches based on empty beliefs are infinite and always out of reach.
Don translation: Nature's treasure has boundaries and is easy to procure; the riches based on empty beliefs are infinite and always out of reach.
Hicks translation: Nature’s wealth has its bounds and is easy to procure, but the wealth of vain fancies recedes to an infinite distance.
Saint-Andre translational: Natural wealth is both limited and easy to acquire, but the riches incited by groundless opinion are boundless.
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.dangerous for it (the soul) to ignore the commands of nature because of attachment to its usual independence" is intriguing. This provides maybe the simplest description of vain desires: ignoring the commands of nature. And it implies the antidote: pay attention!
"...attachment to its usual independence" is less clear.And I just realized that that "independence" is our old friend αὐταρκείας autarkeias usually translated as "self-reliance"! I was too fixated on the first part!!
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200. Don't think it unnatural (ἀφυσιολόγητον aphysiologēton) that when the body cries out, the soul cries also. The body says don't be hungry, don't be thirsty, don't be cold. It is difficult for the soul to prevent these cries, and dangerous for it to ignore the commands of nature because of attachment to its usual independence.
ἀφυσιολόγητον μηδὲν ἡγοῦ βοώσης τῆς σαρκὸς βοᾶν τὴν ψυχὴν· σαρκὸς δὲ φωνή· μὴ πεινῆν, μὴ διψῆν, μὴ ῥιγοῦν· καὶ ταῦτα τὴν ψυχὴν χαλεπὸν μὲν κωλῦσαι, ἐπισφαλὲς δὲ παρακοῦσαι τῆς παραγγειλάσης φύσεως αὐτῇ τῆς προσφυοῦς αὑτῇ αὐταρκείας καθʼ ἡμέραν.
Otherwise, the phrasing appears to be:
οὔτε δὲ φυσικὰς οὔτ᾽ ἀναγκαίας
Neither natural nor necessary
I realize it's possibly pedantic, but the words natural and necessary are simply in a negative phrase: neither X nor Y. It's not the words "unnatural"and "unnecessary" themselves.
Please, if anyone sees otherwise, post your findings!
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There's also this thread on self-sufficiency from 2021 that might be of interest:
PostRE: Autarkia And Epicurean Living In The Modern World
I also apologize, @Macario , but I should have directly responded to the DeWitt quoted passages. I'll try to do that over the weekend. I did see that this line:
[…]
seems to convey to me the idea of contentment in relation to αυτάρκεια.
Thank you again for engaging in this conversation. I know it's been valuable for me so far to get me to delve into this topic.DonSeptember 17, 2021 at 8:15 PM -
For anyone who REALLY wants to get into the weeds...
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my understanding is that, at least in the letter to Menoeceus he didn’t use the term that would be an inversion - or direct opposite of “natural” and that “unnatural” is more of a translation choice because it seemed like they were meant to be opposites in that way - Don’s post seems to affirm this as well, but please correct if I’m wrong)
You are correct. Natural and Empty in Menoikeus. I don't think the Greek word for unnatural is ever used. For example:
PD29 Τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν αἱ μέν εἰσι φυσικαὶ <καὶ ἀναγκαῖαι· αἱ δὲ φυσικαὶ> καὶ οὐκ ἀναγκαῖαι, αἱ δὲ οὔτε φυσικαὶ οὔτε ἀναγκαῖαι ἀλλὰ παρὰ κενὴν δόξαν γινόμεναι.
Don - Of the cravings, first there are those that are natural and required to live, then there are those that are natural but not required, and, finally, there are those that are neither natural nor required which come to be along with empty beliefs (beliefs devoid of merit).
That's as close as we get, I think.
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At the risk of self-horn-tooting, here's my translation and commentary on the desires from my Letter to Menoikeus. Apologies for the length. See the PDF for more:
Translation:
Furthermore, on the one hand, there are the natural desires; on the other, the 'empty, fruitless, or vain ones.' And of the natural ones, on the one hand, are the necessary ones; on the other, the ones which are only natural; then, of the necessary ones: on the one hand, those necessary for eudaimonia; then, those necessary for the freedom from disturbance for the body; then those necessary for life itself. [128] The steady contemplation of these things equips one to know how to decide all choice and rejection for the health of the body and for the tranquility of the mind, that is for our physical and our mental existence, since this is the goal of a blessed life.
Commentary:
127f. Ἀναλογιστέον δὲ ὡς τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν αἱ μέν εἰσι φυσικαί, αἱ δὲ κεναί,
- Ἀναλογιστέον "consider..."
- τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν "of the desires, yearnings"
- "Consider then of the desires, on the one hand, are the φυσικαί "natural ones'
- φυσικαί (physikai)
- English physical, physics
- φυσικαί (physikai)
- on the other, the κεναί 'empty, fruitless, vain, void ones."
- κεναί is also again the word used when Epicurus talks about atoms and void.
- "Consider then of the desires, on the one hand, are the φυσικαί "natural ones'
127g. καὶ τῶν φυσικῶν αἱ μὲν ἀναγκαῖαι, αἱ δὲ φυσικαὶ μόνον·
- "And of the natural ones, on the one hand, are the necessities; on the other hand, the natural ones only."
- ἀναγκαῖαι "necessary, essential; (if a plural noun as here) necessities"
127h. τῶν δ᾽ ἀναγκαίων αἱ μὲν πρὸς εὐδαιμονίαν εἰσὶν ἀναγκαῖαι,
- "then, of the necessary ones: on the one hand, there are those necessary for eudaimonia;
Those necessary for eudaimonia are open to interpretation but must be based on Epicurus's philosophy.
127i. αἱ δὲ πρὸς τὴν τοῦ σώματος ἀοχλησίαν, αἱ δὲ πρὸς αὐτὸ τὸ ζῆν.
- ἀοχλησία "freedom from disturbance"
- σώματος genitive singular of σῶμᾰ
- σῶμᾰ "the body; one's material body or existence"
- “then, those [necessary] for the freedom from disturbance for the body; then those [necessary] for life itself.”
There are some translations that interpret αἱ δὲ πρὸς τὴν τοῦ σώματος ἀοχλησίαν to mean only things like clothing and shelter - those things that provide "freedom from disturbance" for the body, that is for one's physical existence. That isn't literally what is written so that is simply one interpretation. Those kinds of things - clothing and shelter - would seem to fall under the final category of those necessary for life. So, this category should catch those between eudaimonia and those necessary for life. This is an interesting category.
I would contend that those "necessary for life itself" are those essentials at the base of Maslow's hierarchy of needs: food, water, shelter, sleep, air, etc. Again, clothing and shelter would seem to fall into this category.
PS: the "on the one hand... On the other hand" are meant to literally translate the Greek μεν... δε... It is clunky and awkward in English but I wanted to get across that they were there in the original. They do not have to be, nor should they be, translated this literally in all cases.
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You might want to look up Philodemus' On Property Management for an actual ancient Epicurean's perspective on this topic:
Philodemus: On Property ManagementVoula Tsouna provides a translation, extensive introduction, and notes on Philodemus' treatise "On Property Management." A fragmentary version of…www.academia.eduHere's an article Hiram wrote:
On Philodemus’ Art of Property ManagementAn overview and commentary of a scroll written by 1st Century Epicurean philosopher Philodemus of Gadara titled "On Property Management". The main…www.academia.eduI realize this may be too "in the weeds" but I wanted to point out that these topics were being discussed in the Garden 2,000 years ago.
I thought that quote from Philodemus was on point about not feeling distressed by what one loses. I take that too mean don't invest recklessly and stay within your means. But he had much more to say, some applicable to modern life, other advice not so much. But it can be instructive to get a different perspective possibly.