I posted translated quotes from the reference in Comment #35 at:
Quotes from Karl Krohn's dissertation "Der Epikureer Hermarchos" - Hermarchus - Epicureanfriends.com
I posted translated quotes from the reference in Comment #35 at:
Quotes from Karl Krohn's dissertation "Der Epikureer Hermarchos" - Hermarchus - Epicureanfriends.com
The text was downloaded from:
I corrected numerous failures of the OCR where they were obvious. Some breaks in the text indicate that a bit of the content may have been lost in the generation of the electronic document. The dissertation appears to be short by today's customs.
Although parts of Karl Krohn's work have probably become obsolete because of later findings, I listed everything which appeared interesting for our forum or myself. I can add surrounding text of some quotes upon request.
Accents above Greek letters are lost in my quotes. I rendered lower German quotation marks as upper ones.
Page | Quote in German original | English translation by Google corrected by Martin | Martin's Comments |
9 | Von den fünf Schriften Hermarchs, deren Titel uns überliefert werden (Epistolika über Empedokles, Über die Wissenschaften, Gegen Plato, Gegen Aristoteles, Briefe, fr. 20), sind uns die beiden gegen Plato und Aristoteles ihrem Inhalt nach gänzlich unbekannt. | Of the five writings of Hermarchus whose titles have come down to us (Epistolica on Empedocles, On the Sciences, Against Plato, Against Aristotle, Letters, fr. 20), the content of the two against Plato and Aristotle is completely unknown to us. | |
9 | Porphyr bezeichnet in seinem Werke über den Vorzug der vegetarischen Lebensweise die Ausmalung der Urzustände der Menschheit und ihrer allmählichen Entwicklung (I 7-12) allgemein als aus epikureischer Quelle stammend (...). Ein Vergleich der diesen 6 Kapiteln vorangehenden und nachfolgenden Quellenangaben, die chiastisch einander gegenübergestellt sind (...) ergibt einwandfrei den Hermarchischen Ursprung der von Porphyr geschilderten menschlichen Urgeschichte (fr. 24), wie Jacob Bernays (Theophrastos Schrift über die Frömmigkeit Berlin 1866) erwiesen hat. | In his work on the preference of the vegetarian way of life, Porphyry describes the depiction of the original state of mankind and its gradual development (I 7-12) as generally coming from an Epicurean source (...). A comparison of the sources preceding and following these 6 chapters, which are chiastically juxtaposed (...) unequivocally shows the Hermarchic origin of the human prehistory described by Porphyry (fr. 24), as Jacob Bernays (Theophrastos writing about devotion Berlin 1866) has proved. | |
11/12 | Den Zusammenhang der Menschheitsgenealogie bei Porphyr (I 7-12) mit Epikurs Κυριαι δοξαι 31-40 (Diog. L. X 150 ff.) hat schon Usener (Ep. S. 397/8) erkannt. Er und Bernays nahmen an, daß Hermarch bei Abfassung seines Werkes über Empedokles die uns vorliegenden Sentenzen des Meisters in ihrer Form etwas abänderte und sie in seinen uns wörtlich von Porphyr überlieferten Text hineinflickte. Neuerdings hat nun Diels (a. a. O. S. 50) die Behauptung aufgestellt, jene zehn Sentenzen seien Exzerpte des Originaltextes der Schrift über Empedokles. Da die wörtliche Wiedergabe der Genealogie durch Porphyr oben widerlegt ist, handelt es sich jetzt darum, zu entscheiden, ob Epikur der Verfasser jener 10 Sentenzen ist, die Hermarch dann in sein Werk aufgenommen haben müßte und über die uns Porphyr ein Referat gäbe, oder ob ein jüngerer Epikureer, der als Redakteur sämtlicher 40 Sentenzen anzusehen wäre (Us. Ep. S. XLVI) die 30 ursprünglichen "Grundansichten" durch einen Zusatz von 10 aus Hermarch entnommenen vermehrt hat. Nun zeigt sich zwar, daß die Gedanken der Sentenzen 31, 33-35 über Existenz eines natürlichen Rechts (31. 33. = Epikur Us. fr. 593. 524. 529. 597. 531. 551 - Hermarch K. 7 und 8 ) und Abschreckung als Wesen der Strafe (34. 95. = Epikur Us. fr. 531. 532. 534. 535. 582. 18. 397 - Hermarch K. 7 und 8 ) sowohl bei Epikur als auch bei Hermarch vorkommen. Aber der Inhalt der Sentenzen 32, 36-40 hat keine Parallele bei Epikur. Gedanken wie Unmöglichkeit eines friedlichen Bündnisses mit Tieren (32 = Hermarch K. 12), Unterschied von allgemein menschlichen und einzel-völkischen Rechtsprinzipien (36-38 - Hermarch K. 12), Erstarkung eines Gemeinwesens nach außen und innen durch gesetzliche Ordnung (39-40 = Hermarch K. 10) finden sich nirgends in den erhaltenen Schriften Epikurs. | Usener (Ep. p. 397/8) already recognized the connection between the human genealogy in Porphyry (I 7-12) and Epicurus Κυριαι δοξαι 31-40 (Diog. L. X 150 ff.). He and Bernays assumed that Hermarchus, in composing his work on Empedocles, somewhat modified the form of the sentences of the master that are available to us, and patched them into his text, which has come down to us verbatim from Porphyry. Recently, Diels (ibid., p. 50) has asserted that those ten sentences are excerpts from the original text of the writing on Empedocles. Since the literal rendering of the genealogy by Porphyry has been refuted above, the issue now is to decide whether Epicurus is the author of those 10 sentences which Hermarchus would then have to have included in his work and on which Porphyry would give us a report, or whether a younger Epicurean, who should be regarded as the editor of all 40 Sentences (Us. Ep. p. XLVI), has augmented the 30 original "fundamental doctrines" by adding 10 taken from Hermarchus. Now it turns out that the thoughts of Sentences 31, 33-35 about the existence of a natural right (31. 33. = Epicurus Us. fr. 593. 524. 529. 597. 531. 551 - Hermarchus K. 7 and 8 ) and deterrence as the essence of punishment (34. 95. = Epicurus Us. fr. 531. 532. 534. 535. 582. 18. 397 - Hermarchus K. 7 and 8 ) occur both in Epicurus and in Hermarchus. But the content of Sentences 32, 36-40 has no parallel in Epicurus. Thoughts such as the impossibility of a peaceful alliance with animals (32 = Hermarchus K. 12), difference between general human and national legal principles (36-38 - Hermarchus K. 12), strengthening of a community both externally and internally through legal order (39- 40 = Hermarchus K. 10) are found nowhere in the surviving writings of Epicurus. | |
13 | Die Vermutung liegt nahe, daß Epikur seine Auffassung u. a. auch Protagoras entlehnt hat. Wenn anderseits nun auch Hermarch mit den beiden Vorsokratikern Berührungspunkte zeigen sollte - und man kann als solche die Verteidigung des Fleischessens und Tiertötens (Demokrit, Diels Vorsokr. fr. 251-260; Hermarch K. 10) und Erörterung des unvorsätzlichen Mordes (Protagoras, Diels A 10; Hermarch K. 9) auffassen -, so liegt durchaus nicht die Notwendigkeit vor, hier in Epikur den Vermittler zwischen Protagoras und Demokrit einerseits und Hermarch andrerseits zu sehen und daraus zu folgern, daß Hermarch etwa jene beiden Stellen Epikurs Schriften entnommen habe; nichts spricht dagegen anzunehmen, daß er beide Vorsokratiker unabhängig von Epikur hätte benutzen können. Die Selbständigkeit der Schilderung Hermarchs und ihre, wenn auch nicht allzu erhebliche Abweichung von der seines Meisters kann also auch für den Fall der Gemeinsamkeit der Gewährsmänner Protagoras und Demokrit aufrechterhalten bleiben. | It is reasonable to assume that Epicurus based his opinion on Protagoras among others. If, on the other hand, Hermarchus should also show points of contact with the two pre-Socratics - and one can as such see the defense of eating meat and killing animals (Democritus, Diels Vorsokr. fr. 251-260; Hermarchus K. 10) and the discussion of unintentional murder (Protagoras, Diels A 10; Hermarchus K. 9) - then there is absolutely no need to see Epicurus as the mediator between Protagoras and Democritus on the one hand and Hermarchus on the other and to conclude from this that Hermarchus took those two passages from Epicurus's writings; nothing speaks against assuming that he could have used both pre-Socratics independently of Epicurus. The independence of Hermarchus description and its, albeit not too significant, deviation from that of his master can therefore also be maintained for the case of commonality between the references Protagoras and Democritus. | Murder is by definition intentional, at least for the German word used by Krohn. |
14 | Schon im Altertum hat es nicht an Leuten gefehlt, die einige der Grundansichten (Κυριαι δοξαι) Epikur aberkannten (vgl. fr. 28). | Already in antiquity there was no lack of people who rejected Epicurus' authorship of some of the Principal Doctrines (Κυριαι δοξαι) (cf. fr. 28). | Google translated this wrongly as: "Even in antiquity there was no lack of people who rejected some of the basic views (Κυριαι δοξαι) of Epicurus (cf. fr. 28)." |
15 | Man entdeckt vor allem in fr. 29 und 31 einen Kritiker, der ein Wahrzeichen rednerisch-dialektischer Vorbildung, wie sie Hermarch besaß, an sich trägt: die spitzfindige Wort- und Begriffsklauberei. | One discovers above all in fr. 29 and 31 a critic who bears a mark of oratorical-dialectical training, such as Hermarchus possessed: the subtle quibble about words and concepts. | |
15 | Nicht erst seit Kant weiß man, daß das Unsterblichkeitsproblem mit dem Gottesproblem eng verbunden ist. Und der abstrakte Gottesbegriff des Empedokles (Diels fr. 134) hat sicher des Epikureers Spott und Disputierlust herausgefordert. | Not only since Kant has it been known that the problem of immortality is closely connected with the problem of God. And Empedocles' abstract concept of God (Diels fr. 134) certainly provoked ridicule and lust for debate on the part of the Epicureans. | |
49 | Inhaltsübersicht. A. Bericht über Leben und Schriften. I. Leben. II. Schriften. a) Die Epistolika. b) Über die Wissenschaften. c) Briefe. B. Fragmente und Zeugnisse. I. Über das Leben (fr. 1-19). II. Über die Schriften (fr. 20-57). 1. Epistolika (fr. 20-39). 2. Über die Wissenschaften (fr, 40-44). 3. Briefe (fr. 45-51). III. Zweifelhaftes (fr. 58). Nachtrag. Autorenverzeichnis. | Table of Contents. A. Account of Life and Writings. I Life. II. Writings. a) The Epistolica. b) About the sciences. c) Letters. B. Fragments and Testimonies. I. About life (fr. 1-19). II. About the scriptures (fr. 20-57). 1. Epistolica (fr. 20-39). 2. About the sciences (fr, 40-44). 3. Epistles (fr. 45-51). III. Doubtful (fr. 58). Addendum. Index of authors. |
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Your views seem to match ours already very well. Sorry that I found no detail to apply frank criticism to.
Blender is good for people who draft free hand for 3D modeling. I prefer numerical (or even better parametric) input and found no simple way to do that in Blender except by manually editing every datapoint, which is too tedious. Most of the free samples for Blender lack resolution, probably because free hand with high resolution is extremely tedious.
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Ivan Turgenev writes in the epilogue to his novel "Fathers and Sons" that a young physician he had known inspired him to write the novel and to embody that physician in that novel.
He noted a similar mindset in other people as well but did not find it described in the literature known to him. Therefore, he created the term "nihilist" for this novel, apparently not knowing that "nihilism" had already been used previously.
The disciple of the nihilist physician in the novel defines a nihilist as "a man who does not bow down before any authority, who does not take any principle without prior examination, no matter how revered it is." (My translation from the German translation in Chapter 5)
Turgenev was sympathetic to the ideas of the nihilist physician in his novel except for that nihilist's rejection of art. The novel became well known in Russia soon after the publication and was misinterpreted by political factions in Russia. Members of those factions falsely accused Turgenev to support the respective opposing faction with his novel whereas Turgenev merely attempted to capture the zeitgeist / revolutionary spirit of the young generation.
Some revolutionaries did call themselves nihilists after the novel had popularized the word. Nihilism was apparently used as a catch phrase for everything to which the older generation and those in power were opposed to.
The nihilism in Turgenev's novel as quoted above appears to be mostly compatible with Epicurus' philosophy. However, the meaning of nihilism has become much broader than in that quote. Within the novel, it is expanded to political nihilism and moral nihilism with usefulness as replacement for the traditional ethics based on Christianism.
Naive application of materialism to whatever aspect without thinking further has led to nihilism as negation of meaning in that aspect already in ancient philosophy. None of the philosophers who I have seen labeled as nihilistic so far were actually nihilists in every aspect but rather warned against nihilism or used it as a strawman to explain their own opposing views. E.g., Nietzsche wrote about nihilism not to propagate it but to diagnose it as a mindset with potentially catastrophic consequences and to overcome it. Albert Camus was apparently not a moral nihilist. Existentialism was rather a movement which did not get stuck in nihilism but build humanist ethics from materialism. Buddhism in general and Buddhism's concept of Nirwana in particular have nothing in common with nihilism. Buddha himself opposed the nihilists of his time.
Epicurus' philosophy shares materialism with nihilism and includes cosmic nihilism. Other types such as moral nihilism, epistemological nihilism and existential nihilism are apparently not compatible with Epicurus' philosophy. Correspondingly, nihilism occurs in many comments in this forum as synonym for extreme skepticism, despair or absence of meaning.
More on "Fathers and Sons" as a recommended good read:
Whereas I usually prefer reading plays over novels, I enjoyed "Fathers and Sons" very much and got close to shedding sentimental tears at the end.
The novel is mostly humorous and touching. It creates an authentic Russian atmosphere, e.g., by incorporation of many Russian proverbs, descriptions of locations, weather conditions and traditional things and customs, and references to actual historic events.
The main characters are convincingly worked out. I liked all of them.
The nihilists in the novel appear to be rather talk-only when it comes to politics, in analogy with most leftist student groups in Germany of the last 50 years and the rebel leaders in the movie "Life of Brian".
The conflict between young nihilists and the elder in the novel appears to be merely the then contemporary variant of the eternal conflict between generations.
That conflict is surprisingly mooted in the father-son pairs to which the title refers.
Spoiler alert for those who consider reading Turgenev's novel "Fathers and Sons"!
The conflict becomes serious between the nihilist physician and the uncle of the nihilist physician's disciple and culminates in a duel.
The widowed father of the nihilist physician's disciple is reminded of the severe generational conflict he had with his mother in his own youth when he notices with some sadness the mental gap between himself and his son.
The son gives him (Ludwig) Buechner's book "Kraft und Stoff" to read (an introduction to scientific materialism for the general public actually published in 1855). He tells his brother:"Either I am a fool, or the author is insane. But certainly, I am a fool." (my translation from the German translation in Chapter 10)
That father has a baby with a young commoner and does at first not marry her to avoid offending his brother, who later on actually urges him to marry her.
That anglophile Russian traditionalist brother ironically ends up as somewhat nihilistic himself, living in Germany in his old age because of the relatively milder climate there.
The nihilist physician lives up to his nihilism by staying calm when faced with death twice but sometimes becomes comically inconsequential, especially when his nihilistic disregard for societal taboos propels him to inappropriate actions upon falling in love twice in contrast to his nihilistic dismissal of love.
An intellectual princess evokes the cliche of tsarina Katharina.
The initially eager disciple of the nihilist physician abandons nihilism and assumes his role as a rural aristocrat after marrying the younger sister of that princess.
Regarding Comment #2, attributing pleasure and pain to sub-pleasures and sub-pains is an auxiliary construction which may help understanding. However, it is the total effect of external and inner sensations which creates the feeling of pleasure/pain. There are no intermediate subsystems which have their own feelings of pleasure/pain.
It is the total effect which determines where we are on the pleasure/pain scale.
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In Step 2, "about the same time as the founding of the Stoic school" should better be replaced by "before the founding of the Stoic school".
DeWitt indicates that there has been a misconception that Epicurus' philosophy was a response to Stoicism. Therefore, we should be clear in the historic timeline.
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Summary of space-time: (x, y, z, c t)
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