elli Moderator
  • from Thessaloniki, Greece
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Posts by elli

    Eureka !! We did find two magic words like "open sesame". It is the "mutual benefit". E.g. I have a mutual benefit with this person in the video who wants without legal papers to pass through the greek borders to Evros area, for proclaiming his purpose that is: "to f@ck up all Greeks". Before he reaches the borders, he wants to spread the pain he already has from his religious or whatever ideas he has in his mind. And me, I have to say to him : Welcome here, since friendship dances around the world due to mutual benefit.

    Where on earth do you live dear sirs? Outside there are neither only revolutionists of keyboards nor books' authors and the like. Outside it is the life that is proved with the science of the natural selection on who and how is the one that is able to survive with safety. Please, take out from your labs the EP, and your imagined world of ideas, and bring it in the REALITY of life at last!


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    Wow, I can't believe it, do we have among us here, Amrinder's daughter?! Frankly I am soooo glad !

    Welcome, profkesarsarwara . Please, be always proud of your father, I' m also regret that we did not get to know your father better, but I have the intuition that he lived as a genuine epicurean and as Metrodorus had said this, with a saying:


    Pan is considered to be one of the oldest of Greek gods. He is associated with nature, wooded areas and pasturelands, from which his name is derived. The worship of Pan began in rustic areas far from the populated city centers, and therefore, he did not have large temples built to worship him. Rather, worship of Pan centered in nature, often in caves or grottos. Pan ruled over shepherds, hunters and rustic music. He was the patron god of Arcadia. Pan was often in the company of the wood nymphs and other deities of the forest.


    From here derives and the word "paganism", a term that defines polytheistic religions. The word Paganism comes from the Latin pagani, meaning man of the field, of the countryside. Far from the villages - mainly in the woods - where the peoples of Europe were celebrating the gods of their ancestors.


    Invoking Pána with the music band Deamonia Nymphe


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    Kaloúme ton Pána, ton megalodýnamo theó.

    We invoking Pana, the mighty god.


    Ton voukolikó Pána, pou eínai to sýmpan tou kósmou.

    The bucolic Pana, who is the Universe of Cosmos.

    Prudence from Latin prūdēns, prūdent, present participle of prōvidēre, to provide for.


    1. caution in practical affairs; discretion or circumspection
    2. care taken in the management of one's resources
    3. consideration for one's own interests
    4. the condition or quality of being prudent


    Example : The wise man will take care of his property, and provide for the future.

    I would better say using "prudence" that is higher than philosophy. Prudence can be connected with our desires along with their consequences i.e. our experiences that have been measured/checked among pleasure and pain, and they have been led, still are leading and will lead to pleasure. Since pleasure is the goal.


    Another example is here : «Κενός ἐκείνου φιλοσόφου λόγος, ὑφ’ οὗ μηδέν πάθος ἀνθρώπου θεραπεύεται· ὥσπερ γάρ ἰατρικής οὐδεν ὄφελος μή τάς νόσους τῶν σωμάτων ἐκβαλλούσης, οὔτως οὐδέ φιλοσοφίας, εἰ μή τό τῆς ψυχῆς ἐκβάλλει πάθος».


    "A philosopher's words are empty (or vain) if they do not heal the suffering of man. For just as medicine is useless if it does not remove sickness from the body, so philosophy is useless if it does not remove suffering from the soul".



    As for the desires Epicurus to be called as empty or vain...Imo Epicurus does not judge the desires for themselves, he does not say anywhere to eliminate our desires for reaching any Nirvana. No, he just judges/measures the consequences of some of the desires. The vain/empty desires usually lead to nothing!

    Example : We could say as empty or vain desires those that are based on idealism. e.g. we will save all the world, all we can get along, virtue for the sake of virtue, the greatest good for the greatest number, the absolute justice that exists in the world of ideas, the ideologies/obsessions of all -isms etc etc.

    The greek word "κενός" goes hand in hand with the word "μάταιος" and both have the same meaning. In english is the word "vain". An example, where Epicurus used these words, it is in one of his letter to Anaxarchos (see photo) :


    The main point for Epicureans is not if gods are mortal or immortal, or any word someone may find. Frankly, I do not give a dime about that. If there are some aliens in outer space that can live in total bliss and pleasure that it would be great for them. But my life is here on this planet, and I have one and unique life to live. So, the main point of Epicurean Philosophy is to liberate us from those fears that are produced with empty beliefs and the opinions by the many which say that there is god's providence that a god created the Universe, so here comes and the lust of immortality and the worse here comes the necessity.

    The almighty God provides, the multitude says, and that's how someone becomes a good andrapodo (slave) to his leaders, his god's representatives that all for me are mystic gurus and charlatans, that want all the pleasures for themselves, for making man going to his death empty-handed without living his life pleasantly. For this the first thing that they fought in Epicurus and his philosophy is the goal of pleasure and then all the others as senses, feelings, researches on sciences and all these that still keep to our days !

    Yes, I agree totally with the word as used by DeWitt. The word in english and greek for "άφθαρτα" is "incorruptible" or "untouched" by the corruptible, and on the basis of Ethics I explained - as much as I could - the reasons why this word is the accurate one.

    In this PD 1, Epicurus does not mention for gods any kind of characteristics with words such as imperishable or deathless or immortals. For Epicurus, Gods are such beings as "άφθαρτα", and in english the right word is given with "incorruptible" which and in greek also means "untouched" or else "without having any communication at all" by us the humans. And that also means that gods are such beings that can't be touched by our corruptible "virtues" that are synonym with our hypocritical morality which indicates that from the morning till the late hours at night, the hypocritical moralists (usually the believers of Abrahamic religions) in their prayers are throwing curse to each other and to all the infidels of this world, being always ready to make wars in the name of their absolute true god.


    So, the fact for Epicurus and epicureans is that humans can't overpass their chimpanzee and gorillas DNA. For all humanity living totally in bliss/makarioi and pleasantly or else like gods among men, it is a mission impossible since from Epicurus era ==2400 years have passed == and our species still is doing wars without end. And for being a little pessimistic this will never happen forever and ever and till all the things on this planet will collapse and will be created again by atoms/ particles and the void (quantum field) and this is our FIRST and the most important PRINCIPLE.

    Don I totally agree with you. Moreover, the methodology of the Canon is also called as "στοιχειωτικόν" [pron. stoichiotikon] which means elementary.


    "Καλούσι δ’ αυτό (το Κανονικό) περί κριτηρίου και αρχής, και στοιχειωτικόν" (DL Book 10, Epicurus 30)

    And that means : They call it (the Canon) οn criterion and principle, and elementary.


    And continues... for Dialectics they (epicureans) wholly reject as superfluous. For they say that the correspondence of words with things is sufficient for the natural philosophers.


    I think the name Eugenios in english is Eugene. This work "περί ευγενείας" (on the nobility of birth) by Metrodorus has been lost. It is only mentioned by Diogenes Laertius in his book with the biography of Epicurus.


    However, if we study very carefully our survival sources we can draw many conclusions of what means to be someone of "noble birth". The first principle and the most important for Epicurus and his philosophy is that is against herd's/mob's morality which is usually connected with misery, apathy, and contempt of what is beautiful/well, free and pleased, that is to say, herd's/mob's morality is whatever that leads to the pain and the decadence of any society.


    But Epicurus on the basis of his philosophy declares: since I use the methodology of the Canon that came by Nature, for studying properly the Nature, I' m also capable enough to set the moral values/Ethics and for myself and with those that are like myself that we did agree to set them likewise since we all have the same goal.


    Because when any moral values have been set by the mobs and their leaders - that are also connected with laws in a society - provoke fears, anger, pain, and contempt for hurting each other, these are against the goal of pleasure as Nature has set for us. So, then, says Epicurus, I have the autonomy that is synonym with "παρέγκλιση" (swerve) to find the right strategy to change and even the image of gods or any established laws if those are hurting the relationships among the people.

    And as the brave Pericles in his Epitaph (survived by Thucydides) declares: «τὸ εὔδαιμον τὸ ἐλεύθερον, τὸ δ' ἐλεύθερον τὸ εὔψυχον κρίναντες». i.e. we are judging that bliss means freedom; and freedom means bravery.…and they are surely to be esteemed the bravest spirits who, having the clearest sense both of the pains and pleasures of life, do not on that account shrink from danger.


    An honest philosopher is a free and brave spirit who does not say words that are liked to the ears of mobs or of monarchs/oligarchs and above all, an honest philosopher is not absolutist particularly of what is good and what is bad to become a tyrant himself or having any relationship with tyrants, and oligarchs and those people that are followers of false religions and false philosophies. And when we say false is whatever is against human nature that provokes/produces pain and not pleasure.


    An honest philosopher knows how to put and his/her personal limits (among pleasure and pain), as well as, he knows very well where are the limits in a society of the regimes that are called - with political terms - Democracy and Tyranny. IMO both those regimes have to do on the basis of frankness of speech. The too much Democracy of a majority that speak about foolish things that are against Nature and pleasure, it is not Democracy, it's foolishness. And whoever says in a society issues that lead to the benefit and pleasure of the majority of the people, and that person is being censored by the few, it is not Democracy it is Oligarchy and Tyranny and it's foolishness too.


    Here is an image with an epigram for Epicurus by Athenians, that is survived by Menander.


    Welcome here Don . :)Your name or nickname in greek means the one that is of noble birth.

    From DL we read : Epicurus was an Athenian, and the son of Neocles and Chaerestrate, of the demos of Gargettus, and of the family of the Philaidae, as Metrodorus tells us in his treatise on Nobility of Birth.


    Εὖ πράττειν (may you practice well) καὶ ἡδέως ζῆν (and living pleasantly).

    Neoplatonists are everywhere, they are under every stone all over the places. Here on this youtube video is a "nice" lesson on the work by Plato "Philebus" given by Mr. Pierre Crimes (sorry Grimes) and the Noetic Society. ^^


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    http://noeticsociety.org/


    The noetic society organizes seminars

    e.g. seminar details:


    Date:

    Saturday and Sunday, November 2 and 3, 2019.


    Schedule:

    Saturday breakfast at 8am. Explorations from 9-11, 2-4, and 7-9. Lunch and dinner will take place during the breaks.


    Sunday breakfast at 9am. Reflection and exploration from 10-12.


    Location:

    Sunset Beach Woman’s Club 16812 Bayview Drive Sunset Beach, CA


    Cost: $150


    Wow ! The works of the great Plato for just 150 bucks? This is what we call the best value for money. Well, get up right now from your sofas, your beds, your chairs, your offices, and run...This extraordinary offer for attending seminars on Plato and for just $150 it will not be tomorrow. 8o

    ...and plant the explosives that will blow Plato's cave sky-high. And don't worry, the Stoics won't mind if they are caught in the explosion, because they are indifferent to all emotion anyway!:)







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    Ι've translated an excerpt from a work by George Kaplanis “on wealth”, and when in 2014 the participation at the symposium of Athens was by some genuine epicureans, and before the raid of the Aristotelian-Stoic academic-professors.


    <<...Philodemus teaches the methodology of analysis (the Canon). The second field of epicurean philosophy is the field of Ethics. This work that I will present to you is a part of my initial work which includes both fields. I've presented this initial work at the Thessaloniki's Garden. We present all of our works for the Symposium in the Garden and we’re discussing them. And as my friend Panagiotis (Papavassiliou) said : we all together (as a team) wrote them (the works). Thus, the joy of the Symposium, for us from Thessaloniki, begins one and a half months before the Symposium and if we add the discussion/criticism to the works which are another month, that is, the whole story about the Symposium lasts two and a half months.


    Anyway, to not make a long story short "on wealth". There are various questions that our friends ask us in everyday life. The katastematic pleasure (with astonishment and irony) does it make us indifferent to wealth? Once we have the katastematic pleasure what else do we want?


    The Epicurean philosophy, as we are told, as an "ascetic" philosophy is not hostile to wealth? That is, not only to be indifferent but also to be hostile to wealth. How could someone that deals with something noble as the philosophy is, to deal with the wealth that is something completely banal? That is, engaging in wealth does not kill the spirituality? What is the viewpoint of the epicurean philosophy on wealth?


    Here I will make an observation that some religious moralists, for example, the Christians or their descendants who belong to any ideology, but let's speak about Christians now, as they have a clear view on wealth. That is why people also ask us for our opinion. Because the opinion of Christians is clear, it is written in their sacred texts such as: "whoever has wealth will not enter the kingdom of heaven". So Christians and wealth are unrelated things (laughs). Let us the epicureans also say, like them, some blunt words. Philodemus says this: The philosopher must be interested in wealth (laughs). To be concerned with wealth or as Epicurus himself says (κτήσεως προνοήσεσθαι και του μέλλοντος) that is to say to take care for your properties and provide for the future. Maybe someone is still wondering since Epicurus can be happy only with bread and water, so why do you want wealth? I would personally say that poverty is not the cause of happiness. That is, it is not needed when we seek happiness to go for living in a poor neighborhood.


    There is also the view of cynics who say: We limit our needs, we limit our desires so we do not have to worry too much and be bothered in our lives. And we live a tranquil and peaceful life. Of course, Metrodorus, here, in his work on wealth does not accept this and he strongly disagrees. No, he says, this life is not in harmony, this life of cynics i.e. to limit your desires and needs is not harmoniously regulated. A harmonious life is harmonious when it does not predetermine now that there will be later a need to beg and rent ourselves in order to survive. In the ancient era to go and working as an employee it was like a curse.


    And while the cynics let the frugality to fall uncontrollably downward, Socrates defines this frugality precisely with an amount, saying that five minas are enough to satisfy the natural and necessary of our lives. We need nothing more than 5 minas. Someone that knows he told me, that the ancient amount of 5 minas is about 500 euros of today. In any case, it is a small stable amount, which you will have as a stable income throughout your life. And you will spend with this stable small income all your life... and you'll be pleased too. Personally, in such a life I would drink the hemlock (laughs).


    Of course, I think that this image of the cynics and Socrates that are telling you to sit steady there all your life is a very static image. It is too static for it to be sustained by Epicurean philosophy which is structured to deal with a flowing and constantly changing reality>>.