elli Moderator
  • from Thessaloniki, Greece
  • Member since Nov 24th 2017
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Posts by elli

    From LTH : <<and in particular with the immediate or present apprehensions (παρούσας επιβολάς [parousas epibolas]) whether of the mind or of any one of the instruments of judgment, and likewise in accord with the feelings existing in us, in order that we may have indications whereby we may judge both the problem of sense perception and the unseen>>.

    As for the representational OR better as "the imaginational apprehensions of the mind"... Thanks mrs. Voula Tsouna! My representantional or imaginational apprehension of the mind - for to judge the unseen - is my insistent that Epicurus is painted in the fresco entitled : "School of Athens" by Raphael! Since, my desire that is connected with the feeling IS that I do not want my teacher to be insult anymore. And anyway, I'm waiting in a situation of ataraxia the confirmation on this issue! :)

    From David Sedley we read:

    As Cicero’s Epicurean spokesman Velleius explains, Epicurus’ godlike superiority lay above all in his powers of intellectual vision:For the same man who taught us everything else taught us also that the world was made by nature without the need for craftsmanship, and that this thing which you call impossible without divine creativity is in fact so easy that nature will make, is making and has made infinitely many worlds. Just because you [the Stoic Balbus] do not see how nature can do this without a mind, unable to develop your plot’s dénouementyou copy the tragic poets and resort to a god. You would not be demanding this god’s handiwork if you saw the measureless magnitude of space, endless in all directions, into which the mind, projecting and concentrating itself (in quam se iniciens animus et intendens), travels far and wide, seeing as a result no boundary of its extremities at which it could call a halt. In this measureless stretch of widths, lengths and heights there flies an infinite mass of countless atoms, which despite the presence of void between them stick together and by taking hold of each other form a continuous whole. And from these are made those shapes and formations of things which you think are impossible without bellows and anvil. With this thought you have placed as a yoke upon our necks a permanent overlord, for us to fear day and night [...] Freed from these terrors by Epicurus, and delivered into freedom, we do not fear those whom we understand neither to bring trouble upon themselves nor to try and make trouble for others, and with holy reverence we worship their supremely fine nature (ND, I, 53-54, 56).

    Velleius thus brings out what Epicureans can achieve for themselves if they follow Epicurus on his odyssey of the mind, and thus come to appreciate the inevitability that mere atomic accident, operating as it must do on an infinite scale, will produce worlds like our own, without the need for divine craftsmanship. That in its turn requires them to see, by mental projection, what the universe’s infinity really means.A decade or so before Cicero wrote this, Lucretius had eulogised Epicurus in similar terms (I, 62-79) as the pioneering Greek thinker who burst through the visual barrier presented by the outermost heaven –the ‘flaming walls of the world’ –to travel in thought through boundless space and discover the scope and limits of physical possibility.

    Lucretius goes on (III, 14-30) to describe how he has himself been enabled by Epicurus’ lesson to make the same mental breakthrough, and to enjoy the intense pleasure of seeing the world as entirely unthreatening. The Epicurean thought experiments, arguments and mental exercises by which this vision can be achieved are set out at length by Lucretius towards the end of his first book (I, 951-1051). For example, we are invited to imagine going to some hypothetical boundary of the universe and throwing a spear past it (I, 968-983).13Velleius, in speaking of the mind ‘projecting itself’, se iniciens, into infinite space, is capturing in Latin Epicurus’ technical term, epibole tes dianoias. A possible subtext underlying Velleius’ words is that the method of discovery which Epicurus pioneered was one which he thereby earned the privilege of naming. At any rate, elsewhere Velleius makes a similar claim about the term prolepsis(ND,I, 43-44): Epicurus was uniquely able to explain the universal human ‘preconception’ of god, having himself discovered and named this basic criterion of truth.


    Please read this link of a blog by a person named. E.J.Duckworth who is Yale Ph.D. graduated in History of Art, 1990.


    He or she writes on this blog for Epicurus: <<EPICURUS (341-270 B.C.) wears grape vines in his hair and seems to be checking on a recipe for good food, the philosophy of pursuit of perfect pleasure being his IDEAL; his belief in an eternal universe places him among the IDEALISTS>>. ^^

    My question is : Do you want the academics with the PhDs spreading around such false ideas for Epicurus ?

    So, dear epicurean friends, why do we to not be able writing an essay all together as a team of e.g. 10 pages with bla bla bla, like the academicians are doing, while we are observing some details on this fresco that are connected with the sources for Epicurus ?

    Example: we could mention that Epicurus with his company (males and females) is in the left side since up there, in this side, it is the statue of Apollo. As far as we know from Diogenis Laertius source Epicurus mentions only two gods Apollo and Zeus.

    For Apollo I made a post here: https://www.facebook.com/group…ermalink/2550719684976976

    For Zeus it is in the VS33. "The flesh cries out to be saved from hunger, thirst, and cold. For if a man possess this safety and hope to possess it, he might rival even Zeus in happiness".

    Thus, we connect the source by DL (that maybe Raphael had read) in which he says that Epicurus mentions the god Apollo which is in the fresco as a huge statue above the side of Epicurus and his friends. 8)

    Nate said: "The Church has a history of destroying artwork (and artists) that didn't support their narrative, so why would Epicurus have been allowed on a wall in the Apostolic Palace?"

    Nate hi :) according to the above with the god Apollo on the left and goddess Athena on the right side we realize that specifically in this fresco on the wall in the Apostolic Palace christian popes had permitted to be painted and the statues of the foreign gods! :evil:

    The freedom to chose who is Epicurus and if he has to have a main position on this famous fresco has been left from the painter to the epicureans, and not only the school of Epicureans, since as they say, Raphael wanted to include on the fresco all the philosophers.

    For there is not that case (for the moment being) to be confirmed or not to be confirmed if Raphael had seen the figure of Epicurus somewhere, we will proceed with the hypothesis IF the epicureans of our days like to preserve that speculation that indicates that Epicurus is that boy with a silly smirk and wreath on his head; and it's up to them to preserve this same speculation for centuries and centuries.

    Dear friends, you've read the text with my thoughts with the usage of senses (I observed with my own eyes a figure that is identical to the bust of Epicurus) I measured through my positive feelings and in the basis of such anticipations that: on this fresco we see a company that is friendly embraced while one of them gestures to the central figures (Plato and Aristotle), as if is doubting on something.

    Finally, I would like to ask you this: if you were the responsible organizers of an epicurean Symposium… what would you do with these of my thoughts in the text? Would you make a censorship in all these throwing in the oblivion and silence, because my desire is to change a speculation with another speculation that holds that Epicurus has a main position in something, or you would prefer to maintain a speculation that insults Epicurus?

    Imo here lies the whole issue!

    Don, in the text you linked, there are latin letters in this name. With latin letters the greek name ΝΕΑΡΧΟΣ becomes as NEARKOS or NEARCHOS because the greek letter "X" it sounds like "K". In this ring we see greek letters as "NEAΡΚΟΥ" since there is the lettter "Yiota" in the end, but in greek names there is not such a name as NEAΡKOΣ in genitive NEAΡΚΟΥ, but as I said "NEAΡΧΟΣ".

    Τhere are some greek letters engraved on the right ring. I read the letters that form the word "NEAΡΚΟΥ". There is no such a greek name that includes the letter "K". But as far as I know there was a greek name as "NEAΡΧΟΣ" with the letter "X" and in genitive is "ΝΕΑΡΧΟΥ", and we meet this name as one the famous explorer, a navarch and officer in the army of Alexander the Great.

    Raphael saw somewhere a bust, a ring or an engraving of Epicurus, not necessary inside the Vatican, but in one villa of his wealthy friends/florentines bankers who had statues from Villas of Romans e.g. Villa Hadriana etc, and as I mentioned above in one of my comments. Raphael painted Epicurus and his figure is so identical with the bust of Epicurus we know today. I assume when the pope asked Raphael who is who, he did not say anything for anyone. Only for Plato and Aristole that in fresco they hold already their books and they were (and still are) well esteem by the popes.

    However, I insist for my speculation since for that person with the yellow chiton that I claim is Epicurus, along with the embraced friendly company next to him, it prevails a total silence!!

    Don, as far as I know, it has never been found a bust or a statue of Speusippus. For Speusippus there is only an engraving that was done from imagination. Speusippus was not so famous that has companion and friends. Besides if that figure was Speusippus, as he was socratic-platonist, the figure next to him it would not be appropriated to make a gesture of doubt or question, it is supposed that the platonists knew what Plato had said.

    Μyths and fairytales (Jesus and Saul/Paul) mixed with books and movies (Umberto Eco and Dan Brown) and a totally rejection of the two creteria of truth of the Canon which are our own eyes and our feelings for the examination on the issue: where and who is Epicurus on the fresco by Raphael?

    The right answer is: well, the bust of Epicurus had not been discovered in the era of Raphael, so that we conclude that Epicurus on that fresco is that stupid little boy with the smirk and wreath on his head.

    Raphael did not leave any written notes who is who in this fresco! All are speculations.

    However, Aristotle, Plato Socrates were painted by him similar with their busts. Raphael had info for these philosophers busts, but he had no info for Epicurus bust, but at the same time in his fresco Raphael has painted a person that is similar with the bust of Epicurus. Raphael had info for Socrates bust, but he had no info for the latest philosophical mainstreams that were prevailed in Athens and in Rome, and these were Epicurean philosophy and stoicism. Interesting eh? :/

    Please let me to write some facts with persons that were involved... and as that famous phrase says "Follow the money" that is a catchphrase popularized by the 1976 docudrama film entitled as: "All the President's Men", which suggests political corruption can be brought to light by examining money transfers between parties.

    Villa Adriana

    After Hadrian, the villa was occasionally used by his various successors Antoninus Pius (138–161), Marcus Aurelius (161–180), Lucius Verus (161–169), Septimius Severus and Caracalla have been found on the premises). Zenobia, the deposed queen of Palmyra, possibly lived there in the 270s.

    During the decline of the Roman Empire in the 4th century, the villa gradually fell into disuse and was partially ruined as valuable statues and marble were taken away.

    From whom the statues and the marble were taken away?

    From persons like this one:

    Bindo Altoviti who lived in the years 1491-1557 of the House of Altoviti was an Italian banker and one of the most influential papal bankers of his generation. A patron of the arts, he cultivated close friendships with artists such as Cellini, Raphael, Michelangelo and Vasari.

    His father was Antonio Altoviti, the papal Master of the Mint, and his mother was La Papessa Dianora Altoviti, niece of Pope Innocent VIII. One of his direct descendants was Pope Clement XII.

    Like other Florentines who provided loans to the popes in exchange for the rights to papal revenues, Bindo prospered. He enjoyed the financial resources to undertake extensive renovations to the properties he inherited from his father and his suburban villa on the Tiber, and to indulge a growing passion for art. Known for, and endowed with, a strong taste for art, he became a patron of the arts and friend to Cellini, Raphael, Michelangelo and Vasari.

    Immortalized in the portrait by Raphael (see the picture), he gave sanctuary to Michelangelo when he fled from Florence to Rome. Michelangelo had such a high esteem for Bindo, while he despised his rival Agostino Chigi, that he gave him as a gift the cartoon of Noah's Blessing (lost), used for the fresco in the vault of the Sistine Chapel as well as a drawing of a Venus (lost) colored by Vasari. It was also Michelangelo who convinced Bindo not to rebuild, but to preserve, the Santi Apostoli church.

    Vasari painted the Allegory of the Immaculate Conception for the family chapel. When in Rome, Vasari also used to stay at the Palazzo Altoviti where he frescoed the Triumph of Ceres. When the palazzo was demolished in order to create the Tiber's embankments, the frescos were removed and are now shown in the National Museum of Palazzo Venezia.

    For Bindo's suburban villa Vasari frescoed a vast loggia called the Vineyard, decorated with statues and burial marbles from Emperor Hadrian's Villa Adriana.

    My hypothesis is : that Bindo Altoviti must had a bust of Epicurus and it had pointed out to his friend the painter Raphael. For this reason Raphael has painted Epicurus figure on his fresco “the school of Athens” so identical and so similar to our known busts.

    For the history Bindo Altoviti’s descendants were:

    Bindo's son Giovanni Battista Altoviti married Clarice Ridolfi, daughter of Lorenzo Ridolfi, grandson of Lorenzo il Magnifico di Medici and Clarice Orsini, bringing about a reconciliation between the houses of Altoviti, Medici and Strozzi. This made it possible for Bindo's other son, Archbishop of Florence Antonio Altoviti, finally to live in his bishopric. Giovanni Battista himself remained a banker in Rome, was twice consul of the Nazione Fiorentina, and exercised, under Pius V, the offices of an apostolic general and the Depositario dell'Abbondanza.

    Marietta Altoviti married Giambattista Strozzi, which also strengthened the link between the houses of Strozzi and Medici. Their descendants became the Strozzi dukes of Bagnolo and princes of Forano, the Corsini princes of Sismano, dukes of Casigliano and Civitella, and most prominent Pope Clement XII.

    Their granddaughter Lucrezia Maria Strozzi married Prince Aleksander Ludwik Radziwiłł, Voivode of Polock, Grand Marshal of Lithuania and member of the Radziwiłł family, magnates of Poland and Lithuania. Prince Anton Radziwiłł was the husband of Louise of Prussia. The couple were important patrons of the arts in Berlin during the 19th century. Their later heir Prince Stanisław Albrecht Radziwiłł was married to Caroline Lee Radziwill, sister of the late First Lady, Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, and sister-in-law of President John F. Kennedy.

    Hello to all epicurean friends. :)

    The first found, as they claim, was of the double bust of the Epicurus with Metrodorus, and it was in 1742 in Rome. And was happened "accidentaly" during the construction of a portico in the church of St Maria Maggiore.

    The marble bust from St Maria Maggiore in Rome in which the name of Epicurus can be seen is today at the Capitolino Museo in Rome.

    The double bust was immediately placed in the collection of Pope Benedict ΧΙV.

    In 1753, a small bronze bust of Epicurus was also discovered in the Villa of the Papyri in Herculaneum, Italy, among the ashes of Vesuvius. .

    This drawing, as Joshua says, is during the years 1800-1820. Thus the drawing is after the years 1742 and 1753 that the busts of Epicurus were found.

    I want to make a hypothesis and I would like to ask something: There is a famous villa in Italy and in the area of Tivoli that is called "Villa Adriana" that was built by the emperor Hadrian.

    In that villa, as they say, there were many busts of greek philosophers, gods etc., and as the archeologists say, Hadrian wanted to show things that would overwhelm the visitor, something that had not been seen anywhere else in the world and that exists only in his Villa.

    The question is : would there be a case Hadrian had inside that villa a bust of Epicurus? :P

    Don Thank you very much for the info on Baretts book. I read one of her articles on a scientific magazine and was really remarkable. Her article is on this link: https://academic.oup.com/scan/article/12/1/1/2823712

    Yesterday, I found that her book already exists, here in Greece, in english language and I will buy it soon.

    As for the beaver... It takes two to tango. :)

    Βeaver is very capable swimmer, as he can breathe underwater, he uses his sharp teeth and manages to cut down an entire tree overnight. It builds its dams in lakes, even in rivers and in fact creates dams with tree trunks, branches, stones and mud.

    The curious thing of course is that beavers for building their dams all the materials are carried by the male beavers while the females are the ones who undertake the construction by making a separation in the house, which is of two parts, because it has the main apartment and storage for food for difficult days while with a hole in the top out of the water, there is also ventilation. The little beavers, as soon as they manage to swim well, they take on their responsibilities and become independent, after going to their own nest.

    Would your Greek beavers build dams even if separated from their parents and other beavers at birth?

    Aristotle that maybe he had observed the greek beavers and many animals may would give you the response to your question. :)

    IMO beavers are not able to build dams IF they will be separated from their parents and IF in their enviroment they will not have interactions and meetings with other beavers to learn from them how to build their dams and how to co-exist with them.

    According to evolution humans brain has been evolved into three parts (see photo).

    Whilst all humans have these three parts of their brain present at birth, they don’t develop for several years. One very important part of the brain – the orbitofrontal cortex does not develop until the child is three. This part of the brain is responsible for emotional intelligence, our ability to see the world from another’s point of view and manage strong emotions such as rage or fear.

    The development of this part of the brain and many others is not something that just happens naturally. It relies heavily on the interactions of others, namely the main caregivers of the child. Much of a baby’s brain is ‘plastic’ so early experiences have a formative effect on how they will go on to interpret the world and form relationships later on in life. Parental interactions help form the synapses and bridges that give the child healthy solutions to difficult situations.

    Luckily, there isn’t a complicated set of tasks or exercises that parents should complete to aid the development of their child’s brains. Nurturing and interacting is the key, teaching a child that their needs will get responded to in a caring, affectionate way, talking to them, showing them patience and even just eye contact are all important in helping your child’s brain develop.

    As parents, we won’t always get it right, we all get frustrated and snap at our children at times, but even the process of apologizing and things becoming OK again is very useful for our children’s developing brains.

    What if it goes wrong?

    Of course, not all children will have positive experiences in the first few years of life. For instance, children who have a depressed or anxious main care giver may experience less positive interactions than other children.

    We often hear from parents who are wracked with guilt that their post-natal depression has prevented them from bonding with their child. We have worked with children whose adopted parents are struggling with some of the issues that have arisen due to the child’s early neglect. Many parents are anxious that it might be too late for things to change, but we know that things can and do get better, if the right help is sought.

    We can read more here on this link and many other links: https://www.clinical-partners.…ur-child-has-three-brains