I'm back.....:-)

  • I just finished reading the Hadzsits article. Very intriguing. He does seem to provide more concrete motivations for the ancient Epicureans to take part in the standard rituals and prayers of the time. I think I'll have to read it again to get all the information from it. I get the impression that the gods - Venus, Athena, etc - could literally embody individual qualities of the Epicurean gods and so be an object of prayer and worship. That would lead one to emulate and embody those qualities oneself on a deeper personal level. No benefit flowed from the gods, but that didn't preclude gaining benefit from the practice. Is that part of what you got? Or am I misunderstanding?

    Ah ha! Now we're talking! :thumbsup: Lemme gather my thoughts and I will get back to you! :)

  • Also Susan et al we need to find a good online source for material from Philodemus' "On Piety." I think the major reference is a work by Obbirk from 1996 which I have looked at but not studied closely. This brings us back to the continuing frustration that there ought to be free online access to at least some aspects of the Herculaneum material, even if individual researchers want/need to copyright and profit from their commentaries on it. I think in fact there are pages which do contain some of the raw material, and we've even discussed some of them here on the forum, but we haven't used them regularly enough to really get familiar with the material.


    And IMHO that's particularly important with On Piety, since the material is challenging and I think I remember that what is left from Herculaneum is much more fragmentary than some of the other Philodemus material. This is one of the most delicate areas where we need to verify for ourselves exactly what the translator is working with and how much they are reconstructing, so we can more confidently assess how much stock to put into what they come up with.


    As we go down this road in pursuing the divinity aspect of the philosophy I think we can really contribute to the state of understanding if we rigorously check the sources to make sure the commentator is being faithful to the rest of the texts in their word choices.

  • That was probably me... I posted on it here: Thoughts on Reverence, Awe, and Epicurean Piety. I don't remember the details of the article although I do remember that it really got me thinking about the subject.

    Yes! Thank you, Godfrey. A really interesting article.

  • Hi all


    so I’ve been pondering this whole idea of slogans and techniques.


    I was reading through the VS and PD last night before bed and it hit me: there are soooo many techniques hidden in these pithy statements.


    a small example:


    VS 68 “Nothing is sufficient for the man to whom the sufficient is too little”


    a technique from this could be to take 5 minutes and list all the ways your life, as it is right now, is sufficient for your pleasure and happiness. Not for the sake of never desiring more pleasures but for the sake of recognizing and appreciating what you have now as sufficient. (If what you have or present state isn’t sufficient then that’s a whole different matter. We aren’t into the stoic acceptance of whatever is...and all that entails. If what you have isn’t sufficient Then you should be seeking out the things or experiences that result in sufficiency)

    Your list might be:

    - the blanket Covering me is warm and soft and the feel is lovely.

    - my best friends are amazing and I love our zoom Calls

    - this coffee I’m sipping is delicious and energizing


    I’m short, it’s a simple exercise to bring to life and implement the principle.


    as I read through the PD and VS there are literally dozens and dozens of these that pop

    Out.


    we could have a section on these and everyone could contribute.


    thanks for listening. Regardless, I’m going to get started with a list of these for my own use.


    brett

  • Brett that's a great idea to devote a section to it - There are several options on how to implement that, including the "Lexicon" page. I haven't really figured out how to use it but I think it works like a shared wiki.


    I set this page up here: Epicurean Techniques for Better Living


    And gave write access to those of us participating in this thread - if I missed anyone please let me know.


    I think at that location we can basically develop a numbered list perhaps? I would appreciate anyone's input on this - this is an example of where I can help provide the infrastructure but I am sorely lacking in creativity and imagination to get things going sometimes!


    This is the "home page" of the Lexicon: https://www.epicureanfriends.com/wcf/lexicon/


    This is the page announcing the setup and probably a good place to discuss how to use it:


    Addition of the "Lexicon" Feature of the Forum

  • Excellent!!!!!


    For my personal use I was considering organizing them by PD or VS number. It seemed a logical way to keep track.


    but I’m open to other ideas.


    to get started I’ll continue the route I was planning and will post as I have them started. I’ll be posting rough drafts and will absolutely welcome critique etc.


    brett

  • Also Susan et al we need to find a good online source for material from Philodemus' "On Piety." I think the major reference is a work by Obbirk from 1996 which I have looked at but not studied closely

    Crikey, it's $300! Maybe I need to start a GoFundMe campaign! 700 pages too... Gosh, I'd love to see it.


    I stopped entering source texts into the forum because I didn't know how to proceed with translations being so contested. Also, we now have the "Lexicon" section which makes replicating the same material in "Divinity" redundant. The Lexicon structure is probably better.


    I guess what would be ideal is to have each original Latin or Greek passage submitted along with a few translations, and then a breakdown like Don does, and then a big discussion, but that essentially means redoing all Epicurean scholarship from scratch, doesn't it...?. That's a pretty tall order.


    I'm afraid at my age, to some degree, it is more efficient to try something out and see if it works. I think if I had told myself that I needed to translate the whole Bible for myself before I could try Christianity, I would never have moved on from Christianity, you see? The proof is in the pudding! Is there a point at which we can say "Okay, I think get the gist of this, let's give it a whirl!" :) I don't think I have seen any posts here saying "So, I tried such and such, and this is what happened!" I'm not sure what to make of that.


    As for the Hadzsits article, I don't think you will have a problem with his translations, because he doesn't translate anything. All sources are given in Latin and Greek.

  • As for the Hadzsits article, I don't think you will have a problem with his translations, because he doesn't translate anything. All sources are given in Latin and Greek.

    Oh I HATE articles like that! ;-) I suppose academics have a right to write for other academics ;-)


    The Lexicon structure is probably better.

    I am happy to give full access to any regular participant here who is interested in trying to work with the lexicon or other features. If someone tries to do something and doesn't seem to have access rights just let me know. I think it best that people go ahead on the "easier to get forgiveness than permission" theory. If someone posts something that we need to reorganize then we can do that afterwards - once material is typed in the hard part is done.


    Is there a point at which we can say "Okay, I think get the gist of this, let's give it a whirl!"

    Yes I think we are definitely at that point and we need to talk about what "giving it a whirl" means. I keep thinking in terms of online interaction via zoom or skype or whatever, leading eventually to a polished presentation that we can maybe commit to video and then distribute for the use of others. That's something we can talk further about here in these threads and also on the 20th.

  • Oh I HATE articles like that! ;-) I suppose academics have a right to write for other academics ;-)

    It's an old article. I guess at one time all university students would have studied Latin and Greek. (Lucky buggers). ;)

    Yes I think we are definitely at that point and we need to talk about what "giving it a whirl" means. I keep thinking in terms of online interaction via zoom or skype or whatever, leading eventually to a polished presentation that we can maybe commit to video

    Oh look at me doing multiple quotes on my laptop... Lol, So much easier...


    I was really just talking about daily personal application. E.g. Am I going to start praying to Zeus for wisdom and tranquility...? Or should I study Philodemus for a few more weeks first? Naw, I'll give it a whirl and see what happens! :)

    (But, I'll read Philodemus too, 'cause it's fun...)