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Don
July 8, 2026 at 10:36 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostFWIW, here are two threads from a few years ago where the katastematic discussion was taking place:
RE: Is pleasure as the natural goal of life falsifiable? Confidence in Katastematic Pleasure I think I still generally agree with what I posted over… -
Don
July 8, 2026 at 8:52 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.PostI found this Medium article interesting, too: https://medium.com/thought-thinke…ce-4301dccc3990
Excerpts:
We learn about the specific of reading practices in ancient Greece mostly not from written evidences which would describe the process of reading, but… -
Max DuBoff
July 8, 2026 at 6:13 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostAhh, good, yes. Your interpretation is certainly a plausible one. But Torquatus's argument in 1.37, as I understand it, is trying to show that katastematic pleasure is a pleasure. He uses that general principle to make this conclusion. We rejoice at… -
Don
July 8, 2026 at 5:27 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.Post[…]
Wasn't one of Cicero's criticisms of Epicureans that they attracted women, slaves, and the common people? That's the same criticism levied against the early Christians.
One could study the philosophy without being able to read. Attending lectures,… -
Bryan
July 8, 2026 at 3:48 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.PostLet me throw this quote in:
"However, with the study of grammar being twofold [1] the one promising to teach the elements and their combinations and being in general an art of writing and reading, and [2] the other being, in comparison, a deeper ability:… -
Pacatus
July 8, 2026 at 2:51 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.Post[…]
Leontien and Themista also, according to accounts. -
Cassius
July 8, 2026 at 10:04 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Max, as you might expect, I will say that there's no conflict between these statemens of Torquatus at all.
Here's Torquatus in 1.37 (Reid translation): "we look upon the greatest pleasure as that which is enjoyed when all pain is removed. Now inasmuch… -
Kalosyni
July 8, 2026 at 9:49 AM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.PostThanks Don and thinking further...it appears that you may be hinting that we can't be totally certain about who exactly was attending Epicurus' Kepos, and what types of people attended the Epicurean communities. And yet, I don't think that it would be… -
Kalosyni
PostJuly 8, 2026 at 9:31 AM The original question: What Would Epicurus Say To Someone Who Said To Him That The Value of Being Dead and Being Alive Are Equal?
Let us suppost that there is a person who is in daily bodily pain, and who is having difficulty in managing that pain, then… -
Max DuBoff
July 8, 2026 at 8:44 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostThanks for these points, Don and Cassius! Cassius, to be clear, I really was not saying Epicurus is (or was ever understood to be) a value dualist. I was providing a friendly amendment to his view. On Moral Ends 2.9 is a very interesting passage, about… -
Cassius
July 8, 2026 at 7:28 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostI agree with Don's post, and in addition specifically on the issue of whether Epicurus was understood in the ancient world to be a "value dualist," I would cite what I see as a very clear refutation of any idea that "absence of pain" is something… -
Don
July 8, 2026 at 7:03 AM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.PostBook 28 of On Nature ends with:
[…]
He uses the word ἀκρόασις "hearing, hearkening or listening to" where "lecture series" is the translation even though its a written work. The work is also written partially as a dialogue between Metrodorus and… -
Don
July 8, 2026 at 12:00 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
I always appreciate it when references to specific texts are given. It provides assurance that we're all looking at the same thing, although interpretation/translations sometimes/often differ.
In your assertion that "the evidence that Epicurus believed… -
Raphael Raul
July 7, 2026 at 10:36 PM Replied to the thread Episode 156 - Lucretius Today Interviews Dr. Emily Austin - Part One.PostCassius, when I lived in Paris in the 1980s studying at L'Académie des Beaux, I went to Rome many times and had the opportunity to dig at the Roman Forum with an archaeological expedition through the American Academy in Rome. These and many other… -
Patrikios
PostJuly 7, 2026 at 9:06 PM […]
Raphael Raul ,
This is an interesting thread, to which I’ll post other replies. However, to this opening sentence, I would tell someone today, that I have heard this same refrain of similar “burdens” on married life for decades. It was true in… -
Patrikios
PostJuly 7, 2026 at 8:29 PM […]
Cassius
I will have to agree with DaveT that I don’t see the value in this topic, from an Epicurean point of view. Life is worth living, and death is nothing to us . Something that is “nothing” to us has no value; therefore it can’t be… -
Kalosyni
July 7, 2026 at 7:01 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.PostI found this with Google:
[…] -
Don
July 7, 2026 at 6:42 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post -
Don
July 7, 2026 at 5:43 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.PostAll you really needed was one literate person in a given Epicurean community to read any correspondence or texts. My understanding is that it was common to listen to texts. This is what I understand happened in early Christian communities.
Ancient Greece… -
Bryan
July 7, 2026 at 5:42 PM Replied to the thread PD24 - Commentary and Translation of PD 24.PostHello Patrikios,
Thank you for the question. Yes, we are accustomed to the list of (1) sensations, (2) feelings/experiences, and (3a) anticipations, but KD 24 gives us instead (1) sensations, (2) feelings/experiences and (3b) whole appearance-based… -
Max DuBoff
July 7, 2026 at 5:03 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
As I said above, "I think the evidence that Epicurus believed a complete life can't get any better is clear; I don't know how else to interpret KD 3, 18, and 20-21, and Men. 128 and 131." To reiterate, I think there's strong evidence that Epicurus… -
Max DuBoff
July 7, 2026 at 5:01 PM Has received the trophy Frequent Posters.TrophyRecognition of Members Who Have Contributed More Than Thirty Posts On The Forum -
Max DuBoff
July 7, 2026 at 4:55 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostThanks, Cassius--great points. I don't think the textual evidence supports the G&T/ Nikolsky interpretation, but I grant that your arguments are quite plausible if they're right.
Pleasure and pain are mutually exclusive at the same time and in the same… -
Cassius
July 7, 2026 at 4:48 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostThe vacation example is useful to discuss. You've told us that on your own reading that small ordinary statistically real risks taken for an "unnecessary" pleasure can't be justified. You admit that this troubles you, but that you can't find another way… -
Cassius
July 7, 2026 at 4:33 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostMax:
On the "interference" test: You've now said the rule isn't "always avoid pain," it's "avoid pain that interferes with enjoying katastematic pleasure." And that pain which doesn't interfere with katastematic pleasure because anticipation or… -
Patrikios
July 7, 2026 at 4:18 PM Replied to the thread PD24 - Commentary and Translation of PD 24.Post[…]
Bryan , as I came across this old post, I thought further how to explain “two facets of the same facility”. Here’s an image from GeminiAI, that was created from this prompt.
[…]
If there are any inaccuracies in the image depiction, revisions can be… -
Max DuBoff
July 7, 2026 at 3:58 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
I've been uneasy with this claim for a few years now. It seems to create a problem for lots of everyday activities, such as driving for a vacation (vacation is unnecessary fun, and driving is risky because accidents are common). I realize my… -
Max DuBoff
July 7, 2026 at 3:55 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Yes, I've been really struggling with the deathbed letter recently (as I think I said upthread). But my basic response will be: it's because the pain doesn't get in the way of blessedness. The question is always whether pain interferes with… -
Max DuBoff
July 7, 2026 at 3:40 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Friendship is important for blessedness. It's an extremely important instrumental good, so it's worth taking on pain (and risk of pain) for it, not because it's intrinsically valuable, but because it's the best way to achieve the highest pleasure.
What… -
Max DuBoff
July 7, 2026 at 3:34 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Excellent point, this is really helpful.
No, I want to nuance my previous point: choose against pain if it'll interfere with enjoying katastematic pleasure. It's totally fine to accept some pain if it promotes katastematic pleasure. That's why we… -
Max DuBoff
July 7, 2026 at 3:25 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Yes, that should read "pleasure." -
Cassius
July 7, 2026 at 2:16 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostMax,
The twentieth-meal example is very useful.
Let me restate it to make sure I have it right: given a choice between 10 units of pleasure/0 pain and 30 units of pleasure/3 pain, "refer your actions to the goal of nature as tranquility" tells you to take… -
Cassius
July 7, 2026 at 1:43 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Max I presume the underline "pains" I underlined there is a typo? -
Max DuBoff
July 7, 2026 at 1:32 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Friendship isn't a pleasure, i.e., intrinsic good; friendship is an instrumental good. So it's not subject to the same problems. Epicurus praises friendship because it's an extremely important instrumental good; and it frequently provides intrinsic… -
Max DuBoff
July 7, 2026 at 1:22 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Helpful points, indeed! Splitting this into two parts.
Wait, no, all pleasures always motivate us to pursuit them--that's true for pleasures that don't contribute to blessedness just as much as it is for those that do. So what keeps us from having that… -
Max DuBoff
July 7, 2026 at 1:13 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
To be clear, katastematic pleasure is experienced; but, by saying it has no intensity, I mean that it couldn't be made stronger or weaker. It just is or is not present.
For someone who thinks contentment or joy is a katastematic pleasure, my claim… -
Kalosyni
July 7, 2026 at 11:45 AM Posted the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.ThreadThe question of literacy at the time of Epicurus came to me because I've been thinking about who exactly were the people that were engaging with the teachings of Epicurus...
And because it also answers the question of who was Epicurus writing for...
[…]
Any… -
Cassius
July 6, 2026 at 6:20 PM Replied to the thread World's Worst Epicurus Videos.PostWhoever made those videos no doubt loves that surviving bust with the busted-out eyebrow that makes Epicurus look like a whimsical druggie -- and he/she/they probably love that portrayal every bit as much as I hate it
But no matter how much it's… -
Bryan
July 6, 2026 at 6:04 PM Replied to the thread World's Worst Epicurus Videos.PostYes it is bad but something about Epicurus looking like a zombie and shaking to rave music had me laughing. -
Cassius
July 6, 2026 at 3:37 PM Replied to the thread World's Worst Epicurus Videos.PostNote: I have just added the following to the first post in this thread:
I have been asked to explain why I would post a thread about "Worst" videos on Epicurus. The reason is that as this website has clearly stated on its masthead for over ten years, our… -
Elli
PostJuly 6, 2026 at 2:38 PM It is striking to observe how someone can speak of prudence while repeating the very error Aristotle made when he claimed that women have fewer teeth than men - without ever opening a single mouth to count. He preferred abstraction to reality, assumption… -
Cassius
July 6, 2026 at 1:58 PM Replied to the thread World's Worst Epicurus Videos.PostThe old record-holder has been dethroned! The new recordholder for worst video is here:
youtube.com/watch?v=iwDZtH2wexw -
Kalosyni
July 6, 2026 at 10:33 AM Kalosyni has added the Entry Letter to Menoeceus: Textual Analysis and Commentary, with PD's/VS's Cross-Referenced to the lexicon.New (Entry)Examination of Letter to Menoeceus, using Bailey and other translations, and with a commentary --by Kalosyni -- and including relevant PD's, VS's, etc.
Sections of Ancient Greek text in the commentary come from: https://monadnock.net/epicurus/letter.html
*** This is currently a work in progress***
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Don
July 5, 2026 at 10:14 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
[…]
If I'm being invoked, I feel I need to expand my thoughts on this. Cassius , what I think you're referring to is this below where I wrote:
[…]
I'll freely admit that "etc." is doing a lot of heaving lifting.
As for a what Epicurus thinks is covered… -
Cassius
July 5, 2026 at 8:29 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostMax, thank you for working through all of this so carefully.
On the question Would a tranquil person with no friends, no joys, no positive pleasures — just an undisturbed, empty mind — count as having achieved the blessed life in full?, you wrote:
[…]
I… -
Cassius
July 5, 2026 at 4:25 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostThank you Max for all the detailed responses! -
Godfrey
July 5, 2026 at 4:05 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
This is an intriguing comment!
A pleasure with no intensity would, to me, describe a neutral state, which of course doesn't exist for Epicurus in the pleasure/pain relationship. This is why I prefer "complete" to "perfect". To my understanding a… -
Max DuBoff
July 5, 2026 at 3:35 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
100% agree with this, Don.
Also, in response to Pacatus, yes, pleasures/pain (i.e., pathē in the epistemological sense) are closely linked to sense-perceptions (aisthēseis). That has to be true even for katastematic pleasures. -
Max DuBoff
July 5, 2026 at 3:31 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Definitely appreciate your points a lot, Kalosyni, and I think a lot of what you're saying is just about what connotations there are in English. But Cassius is right: we need to have specialized understandings of words in mind when we're approaching… -
Max DuBoff
July 5, 2026 at 3:27 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Thanks, Cassius! Great questions:
1) KD 20, where the flesh's understanding of pleasure is deemed incorrect for a good life. Also Men. 128 is good evidence--after describing what must be katastematic pleasure, he says "the animal is not in a position…
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