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Don
May 22, 2026 at 11:28 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
Mea culpa
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Todd
May 22, 2026 at 9:22 AM Replied to the thread Defense of all mental pleasure and pain being based in the body..Post[…]
I agree.
There is also this this quote from Torquatus:
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I think the point you are making would follow directly from this premise. -
Todd
May 22, 2026 at 9:16 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
This is all I meant. The emphasis was intended to be on "relative". -
Cassius
May 22, 2026 at 8:11 AM Replied to the thread Defense of all mental pleasure and pain being based in the body..PostYes i agree with Don excellent and thorough point wbernys!
The only initial comment i had was on this:
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This may not apply exactly, but It's my undertanding that Epicurus was criticized by Stoics and maybe others on the grounds that he did not say that… -
Cassius
May 22, 2026 at 7:42 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
I know that's the word Todd used but I agree with your direction Don, and am reading Todd that way too, that he doesn't really mean "devalue" except in relative terms. Where the letter to Menoeceus speaks precisely I would accept it as authoritative… -
wbernys
May 22, 2026 at 5:05 AM Replied to the thread Defense of all mental pleasure and pain being based in the body..Post[…]
Oh I see! Okay good, yeah you and I are in agreement. Maybe I'll add something into the original post on this. -
Don
May 22, 2026 at 4:59 AM Replied to the thread Defense of all mental pleasure and pain being based in the body..Post[…]
Oh, I'm agreeing with your premise! My only amplification is that we need a body to even be able to experience the world through the senses. There are no sensations without the ear, eye, tongue, skin, nose, and mind/soul/psykhē working in concert. -
wbernys
May 22, 2026 at 4:46 AM Replied to the thread Defense of all mental pleasure and pain being based in the body..Post[…]
I think this quote interprets Torquatus as saying that the mind is apart of the body, and without it the mind cannot exist, and therefore is still physical. If it is that interpretation, i disagree. Feel free to correct me. Obviously the internet… -
Don
May 22, 2026 at 4:31 AM Replied to the thread Defense of all mental pleasure and pain being based in the body..PostNicely done.
The only summary statement I'd offer is that all pleasure had/has to be bodily in the broadest sense since we exist as mind and body as a whole and we experience everything within our a physical existence. There is no mental without a… -
Don
May 22, 2026 at 4:21 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
Okay, read the paper, and, alright, it's fine. But I didn't see it as overly revelatory. Epicurus posits a dyad to explain physics: bodies and space; he posits a dyad to explain the foundation of ethics: pleasure and pain. That seems to be the crux of… -
wbernys
May 21, 2026 at 11:19 PM Posted the thread Defense of all mental pleasure and pain being based in the body..ThreadHello all, I have long been curious about this apparently orthodox claim from Torquatus that all pleasures and pains are ultimately based in the body:
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I imagine the orthodox Epicureans had sophisticated ways of defending this thesis. Philodemus in… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 9:46 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostThanks again Todd and others for all comments! -
Don
May 21, 2026 at 9:41 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
If that's the case, as much as I respect Sedley, we're going to have some problems, pardner.
Okay, I need to hunker down and ready this... -
Todd
May 21, 2026 at 6:18 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostMy thoughts on the Sedley paper
I think it makes a lot of sense. The parallels are certainly suggestive.
In my opinion, Sedley's framework is most useful for filling in gaps in our understanding of Epicurus' ethics. For one thing, I think it gives… -
Todd
May 21, 2026 at 4:14 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
Sedley says something similar to justify relying on On Ends over the Letter to Menoeceus. It's an elegantly written letter, not a systematic exposition of ethics. -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 3:44 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
I agree and think you are exactly right. This is a huge point and requires that we emphasize it. I don't think that Epicurus would used wording that implied this possibility if he were not writing (to Menoeceus) to someone he expected to know better… -
Todd
May 21, 2026 at 3:22 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
Agree, but it is suggesting something else that I see as problematic.
Being "without pain" (completely, entirely) is the maximum limit of pleasure. It is not a state that the average person frequently, or maybe ever, enjoys. I think it is a mistake to… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 3:10 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostAlso Todd I agree with your comments on the graphic and will use this one going forward
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Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 3:02 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostThis is parallel to the same problem in discussing discrete experiences. Saying that you are experiencing "pleasure" tells you absolutely nothing about what you are doing other than that you find it agreeable. Epicurus certainly understood that. Real… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 2:54 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostI also think in relating the issue of discrete sensations of pleasure to the issue of "pleasure in total" we will need to take note of something specific: I don't think that Cicero would leave himself open to the charge that he was intentionally… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 2:27 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostThank you for the comments Todd. I'll keep the separation of issues in mind as we proceed, but for better or worse I think the issues are tied tightly together in the texts - especially Torquatus but probably all of them - so I expect they need to be… -
Todd
May 21, 2026 at 1:54 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostThe Graphic
I actually like the graphic better than the article.
Maybe replace alive/dead with life/death - it offends my sense of grammar to have 2 pairs of nouns and then a pair of adjectives.
The Article
I see that you've tried to address my feedback in… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 12:26 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostI fully expect that this graphic is going to change many times as I continue to revise the article, but here is a first draft of something to put at the head of the article when in begins to approach Substack-stage. As with the article, all comments and… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 11:22 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostOk all of the comments so far have been helpful and thanks to all who made them. This is not an easy or simple article, and it really helps if someone has first read the Sedley article. However to be useful that can't be mandatory - the article has to… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 8:44 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostLast comment for now - the application of the atoms/void binary to pleasure/pain is what David Sedley discusses in his "Inferential Foundations of Epicurean Ethics"
"The Inferential Foundations of Epicurean Ethics" - Article By David Sedley -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 8:35 AM Posted the thread "Print Thread" Feature Added.ThreadToday we've added a "Print Thread" package that allows you to print directly to PDF the full contents of a thread (up to 100 messages long). Each thread - and each post as well - should now have a "PDF" button at the top right to allow this option.
Due… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 8:19 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
So the storm and shore analogy seems to me to be an example of what is cited in the quote above about how "Some of these are truly binary by definition; others are socially or psychologically treated as binary even though, upon closer analysis, they… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 8:08 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostAnother aspect that is relevant to the discussion of comparing "happy" or "pleasure" as a comparative state to "happy" or "pleasure" as a superlative is the question of whether you can experience pleasure in one part of your experience while you are… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 8:04 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostHere's another list culled from asking for "all or nothing" propositions:
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Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 8:01 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostCouple of specific comments:
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I would say that's exactly what Epicurus and Lucretius are doing.
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I'm pretty comfortable with the verdict aspet from my legal background, but I can see that those less familiar with US criminal law might not accept it so… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 7:54 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostThe same process in the letter to Herodotus is below. This is not the argument of a technician listing out all the different observations that could be made of cats, dogs, trees, flowers, ad infinitum.
This is a logical high-level argument, based… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 7:45 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
Just to be clear here, if there is going to be a failure in the article for trying rather than succeeding to describe something in terms of binaries, the failure is going to be mine, not that of "the AI".
I've already gone through this wording several… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 7:37 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostLucretius Book One:1-418
But now, to weave again at the web, which is the task of my discourse, all nature then, as it is of itself, is built of these two things: for there are bodies and the void, in which they are placed and where they move hither and… -
Don
May 20, 2026 at 11:14 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostSo you're trying to illustrate:
There are only two things in the set.
There can ONLY be two things in the set.
One is the opposite of the other.
And so on.
That's a tall order.
I don't like trying to shoehorn the relay race into pain/pleasure analogies.
I also… -
Joshua
May 20, 2026 at 11:03 PM Replied to the thread Clement on Epicurus' And Other Philosophers Opinions As To The Chief Good.PostWhat a tedious person.
Clement of Alexandria, like St. Jerome and St. Augustine, received a classical education in the pagan Greek tradition prior to converting to Christianity, and also like them developed a taste for pagan literature.
Jerome records in… -
Todd
May 20, 2026 at 10:35 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostI will give this one try to explain my issue with this article.
Two different (but related) things are being mixed up here: the feelings, and the limit of pleasure.
The binary illustrations are great to explain that there are exactly 2 feelings.
When you… -
Cassius
May 20, 2026 at 9:52 PM Replied to the thread Clement on Epicurus' And Other Philosophers Opinions As To The Chief Good.PostThe link is in the title of the quote box, and I'll repaste it below. I haven't had time to figure out why it reads so poorly. Hopefully there's a better translation but I think this is a reputable website:
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02102.htm -
Cassius
May 20, 2026 at 9:49 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
It 's not easy to get comfortable with this approach because it's a difficult subject to get your arms around, but that's exactly why we have to get our arms around it.
it is going to strike most people as discretionary and debatable whether to divide… -
Todd
May 20, 2026 at 9:23 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostI was going to go through the some of the other examples, but I've realized that I just don't like this article at all.
I think it is just going to create more confusion rather than clarifying anything.
We can discuss this more if you want, but I won't… -
Todd
May 20, 2026 at 8:28 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostThe Full Vessel
This one doesn't make sense to me.
I've always liked this example, and I think it was useful to me when I was first learning about Epicurus.
My understanding of the cup model (which could be incorrect):
The cup represents us or our life at… -
Don
May 20, 2026 at 8:06 PM Replied to the thread Clement on Epicurus' And Other Philosophers Opinions As To The Chief Good.PostWhat's your source for the translation?
PS Never mind. I looked at a bunch of webpages, and they all started out exactly the same way. There must be a readily available public domain translation everyone uses. -
Cassius
May 20, 2026 at 7:22 PM Posted the thread Clement on Epicurus' And Other Philosophers Opinions As To The Chief Good.ThreadI came across a text today that I would drop in here as it's either totally new to me or I had forgotten it. I don't know whether this translation is reliable either as it seems clunky. But it came to my attention in regard to Hieronymus. It seems… -
Cassius
May 20, 2026 at 7:01 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
That is the huge problem that requires that whenever this is discussed an explanation is given. From the point of view of "any individual moment or experience," as in PD3, any feeling is either pain or pleasure but not both or either mixed or both or… -
Todd
May 20, 2026 at 6:50 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
Are they though?
It seems more correct to say complete absence of pain is perfect / complete / the limit of / the fullness of pleasure.
Or you could say a reduction of pain is an increase of pleasure. Or a given sensation is either pleasant or painful.
… -
Cassius
May 20, 2026 at 6:49 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
While oil and water don't mix, i doubt it is immediately clear that there is an obvious context in which those are the only two alternatives. Even if you're talking salad dressing there's probably spices and other things that i as a non-foodie don't… -
Bryan
May 20, 2026 at 6:11 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostI always have in mind this quote of Metrodorus (from Plutarch in Non Posse 1091 A):
"This very thing is the good: escaping the bad – because it is not possible for the good to be placed anywhere, when nothing painful or distressing is further withdrawing." -
Don
May 20, 2026 at 6:04 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostHmmm... I'm not entirely onboard with some of your examples. I'll try to take a look over the next few days. I'd think you'd want to go down the path of oil and water. -
Cassius
May 20, 2026 at 5:29 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostOn this one also: In case it's not obvious from the word "illustration," I am particularly interested in identifying word pictures that can be turned into actual pictures, so that we can "illustrate" the point graphically in pictures that are even more… -
Cassius
ThreadMay 20, 2026 at 5:24 PM My attention today got diverted over to the "Absence of Pain" Substack article, but when I started the day my focus was elswhere. Initially, I was trying to come up with better and clearer ways to describe the principle that when you have a universe of… -
Cassius
May 20, 2026 at 5:12 PM Replied to the thread Discussion of Blog Article.Post[…]
I'm going to get to this in a future rewrite as well.
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