I take the liberty of observing that you are not a true disciple of our master Epicurus, in indulging the indolence to which you say you are yielding. One of his canons, you know, was that “that indulgence which prevents a greater pleasure, or produces a greater pain, is to be avoided.” Your love of repose will lead, in its progress, to a suspension of healthy exercise, a relaxation of mind, an indifference to everything around you, and finally to a debility of body, and hebetude of mind, the farthest of all things from the happiness which the well-regulated indulgences of Epicurus ensure; fortitude, you know is one of his four cardinal virtues. That teaches us to meet and surmount difficulties; not to fly from them, like cowards; and to fly, too, in vain, for they will meet and arrest us at every turn of our road. Weigh this matter well; brace yourself up....
Recent Activity
Cassius replied to the thread Major Upgrade To Forum Software - Now Completed.
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One change that our users will note is that the Quote system works a little differently. Once you mark quotes they don't appear at the bottom right of the screen but at the bottom right of any post you are editing, and you can use them as before but from this different location. If anyone finds it confusing just ask about it.
Cassius replied to the thread Major Upgrade To Forum Software - Now Completed.
As of about 6:30 PM EDT the forum is back up after the upgrade. No doubt there will be theme and other issues that will need addressing. Let us know in this thread as you come across them and we will address them asap.
Cassius posted the thread Major Upgrade To Forum Software - Now Completed.
As part of the security updates we are going to upgrade the software for the forum over the next several hours. Nothing major should be lost, but the site may be inaccessible during the upgrade. Please don't start any major new posts without having a backup!
Cassius posted the thread Note Regarding This Week's Internet Security Issues.
Some of you may be aware that over the last several days there have been security issues in software known as "PHP" that runs many internet websites, including this one. I am not aware that this issue has caused us any issues whatsoever so far, but we have today integrated the latest patches so this should not be a problem for us going forward. However security is a constantly moving target so as always, if you detect any weirdness in operation of the forum please contact me so we can address…
Pacatus replied to the thread Epicurean Pleasure and Enjoyment Differs Depending on Introvert vs. Extrovert Brain Differences.
I suggest (following from Kalosyni ‘s post from above) that there is no inherent “superiority” in being either an extrovert or an introvert.* Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Extroverts are the vast majority in the population, and some might consider that to be the “norm” – but that might just be a bias based on statistics.
In addition to the deeper analysis offered by Kalosyni , I have also had the difference described in terms of personal energy: an extrovert tends to gain…
Cassius posted the thread Sextus Empiricus - Clearly Stating That Skepticism Leads Not To Pleasure But To "Quietude".
Sextus says the goal of the Sceptic is “quietude” (ataraxia), reached by suspending judgement and giving up the search for truth (Outlines I.25–30 [URL:https://epicurustoday.com/02-key-sources/091-sextus-empiricus-outlines-of-pyrrhonism-bury/#1-25]). He contrasts this directly with the pleasure schools. Pleasure as the end, he says, is “the opposite” of Sceptic quietude (Outlines I.215 [URL:https://epicurustoday.com/02-key-sources/091-sextus-empiricus-outlines-of-pyrrhonism-bury/#1-215]).
Kalosyni replied to the thread Marcellus Palingenius Stellatus - AN ENCOUNTER WITH EPICURUS - translated excerpt from “Zodiacus Vitae”.
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This fragment is an excerpt from a much larger body of work, which focuses only on a presentation of Epicurean philosophy. The rest of the story is not Epicurean at all. If anyone is interested how the story ends, on the last page of the PDF there's a link to the original which is available on Archive.org.
Cassius replied to the thread Epicurean Pleasure and Enjoyment Differs Depending on Introvert vs. Extrovert Brain Differences.
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I completely agree with your statement here Patrikios but I cannot come up with a way of quantifying what "greatest pleasure" means across ALL circumstances. I agree very much that for most everyone (probably everyone) they will want to meet and study together with us. But some people in some circumstances are not able to do that for reasons beyond their control - whether it be because they are surrounded by hostile people or hostile environments of many kinds. The advice to seek the…
Patrikios replied to the thread Epicurean Pleasure and Enjoyment Differs Depending on Introvert vs. Extrovert Brain Differences.
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@Cassius Thanks for this assessment, but doesn’t Epicurus encourage us to follow our net pleasures to the fullest? If we have been endowed by Nature with capabilities, it would seem UNnatural to not develop those abilities to the fullest extent of net positive pleasure? Instead of “hiding our talents under a bushel” or “living a quiet life in the middle of the nowhere “, I read how Epicurus encourages us to meet and study together with others.
I can see that someone who tends to be more…
Cassius replied to the thread David Sedley - "Creationism And Its Critics In Antiquity".
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I'm not sure exactly whether this statement by the reviewer is intended as criticism (it appears to be with "twist") but I see no reason to question Sedley's conclusions in what I have read so far. Anytime someone is postulating any kind of "active" force acting on something else which is not active, you're pretty much in creationism territory. I would certainly consider a "prime mover" to be in that same category.
And while it's correct to say that there is no chapter specifically…
Patrikios replied to the thread David Sedley - "Creationism And Its Critics In Antiquity".
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@Cassius ,
I followed your link to the book, but found no full version available online for free, just $35 on GooglePlay or Amazon for a paperback or hard copy book (no full PDF or Kindle).
I found this interesting review of Sedley’s book.
Review: Creationism and Its Critics in Antiquity [URL:https://ncse.ngo/review-creationism-and-its-critics-antiquity]
It appears that Sedley goes to great lengths to find the creation design theory in many early Ancient Greek philosophers:…
Cassius posted the thread Aenesidemus - Transmitter of Pyrrhonic Skepticism.
I am totally unfamiliar with this name, but it appears he was a major player in the development of Skepticism, and we need to know enough about him to fit him into the big picture:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aenesidemus
Like Sextus Empiricus it appears that Aenesidemus wrote in Greek rather than Latin. I wish I were not getting the impression that the most radical forms of skepticism were much more appealing to the Greek mind than to the Roman mind.
This appears to be key:
The ten modes…
Patrikios replied to the thread How a Defense of Christianity Revolutionized Brain Science article.
@Godfrey It is an interesting read.
On the story of the Presbyterian minister, It appears to me that Bayes’s premise—that these statistical models are somehow validated by their historical roots in defending religious miracles—is a distraction. Whether the brain uses Bayesian inference is a question for empirical observation, not a matter of theological vindication to use complex probalistic analysis to defend the existence of miracles.
The attempt to use complex, abstract logic to justify…
Cassius replied to the thread David Sedley - "Creationism And Its Critics In Antiquity".
I will be adding comments to this thread as I review this book, and the first thing I see to address is this statement from Dr. Sedley about his interest in exploring the history of the debate about creationism. (The underlining is my own addition.)
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This comment brings up a point we've discussed about how to treat not only Dr. Sedley about also most other academic writers on Epicurus.
Unlike the "series of leading philosophers" who almost all agreed that taking a position on the…
Cassius replied to the thread Collection of Nietzsche Quotes Relevant To Epicurean Philosophy.
This following is a more exhaustive list of references prepared by Claude. It addresses simply a request to compile a list of references both positive and negative. Within that scope I think it succeeds pretty well, and provides a set of links for further study, so it's a useful addition to this thread.
Nietzsche on Epicurus, Lucretius, and Epicurean Philosophy
Scope
Nietzsche mentions Epicurus more than 150 times across his published works, philological writings, notebooks, and…
Cassius posted the thread Oxyrhynchus Papyrus - Work By Eikadistes at Twentiers.com.
I just heard from Eikadistes that he's been working on the Oxyrhunchus materials. Haven't had a chance to review it yet but his work is always of high quality so we definitely want to link to it here:
https://twentiers.com/oxyrhynchus/
Godfrey posted the thread How a Defense of Christianity Revolutionized Brain Science article.
Happy 20th!
This from my morning reading may be of interest:
https://nautil.us/how-a-defense-of-christianity-revolutionized-brain-science-236310?utm_source=nautilus.beehiiv.com&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=the-unpopular-protein-ranked-no-1&_bhlid=1a88239b7706c83e3eb1e6bbf800e2773da38d79
Cassius replied to the thread Episode 356 - EATAQ38 - The Skeptics Argue Every Side But Conceal Their Conclusions.
Summary
Continuing Book Two of Cicero’s Academic Questions, Cassius and Joshua finish Section 18, where Lucullus calls the skeptics’ appeal to “the probable” a “monstrous absurdity”: if the true cannot be told from the false, even “probably true” means nothing, and a skeptic who argues at all assumes the difference he denies. Joshua compares Socrates the self-described gadfly with Cicero, who claims to live “from hand to mouth.” Lucullus then attacks the Academic habit of arguing on every side…
Cassius replied to the thread Episode 356 - EATAQ38 - The Skeptics Argue Every Side But Conceal Their Conclusions.
Lucretius Today Podcast Episode 356 is now available: "The Skeptics Argue All Sides But Conceal Their Conclusions"
https://www.spreaker.com/episode/75876565/media
Kalosyni posted the thread Happy Twentieth of October 2026.
Happy Twentieth Everyone! :)
Cassius posted the thread David Sedley - "Creationism And Its Critics In Antiquity".
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Thanks again to Godfrey for bringing this book to my attention. Its focus is much wider than Epicurus alone but it has excellent material on the Epicurean viewpoint. I am not going through it for the first time and so I am setting up this thread for future comments.
Cassius replied to the thread Episode One Hundred Twenty-Seven - Letter to Pythocles 02 - The Formation of "Worlds".
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Somehow four years ago I neglected to follow up on Godfrey's citation to this book. I have now remedied that and see that it is indeed excellent - another good source that compares and contrasts what Epicurus was doing against Plato's works. It goes through both Lucretius and also Velleius in On The Nature of the Gods with exhaustive analysis that is an essential compliment to Epicurus' other comments on divinity.
I'll set up a separate thread for exploring this book further.
Cassius replied to the thread Episode 355 - EATAQ37 - Have We Lived All Our Lives In A House of Mirrors?.
Wow!
Bryan replied to the thread Episode 355 - EATAQ37 - Have We Lived All Our Lives In A House of Mirrors?.
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While looking up Lucretius' use of the word "Verā́trum," I found this info about Carneades.
Pliny, Natural History, 25.21:
"In former days hellebore was regarded with horror, but more recently the use of it has become so familiar, that numbers of studious men are in the habit of taking it for the purpose of sharpening the intellectual powers required by their literary investigations. Carneades, for instance, made use of hellebore when about to answer the treatises of Zeno... In Italy…
Cassius replied to the thread Epicurean Pleasure and Enjoyment Differs Depending on Introvert vs. Extrovert Brain Differences.
I will look at the article but I want to note at the top that I don't think that there is ultimately any Epicurean endorsement of either "extrovert" or "introvert" orientation, except perhaps at a very basic level of appreciating the value of friendship in attaining. In other words, I think the keys are
1 - As Robert observed, it's best to have a fundamentally accurate assessment of nature so that you don't go off in crazy directions such as thinking that there is reward or punishment after…
Kalosyni replied to the thread Epicurean Pleasure and Enjoyment Differs Depending on Introvert vs. Extrovert Brain Differences.
@Bryan This thread is relevant to what came up in this afternoon's Zoom discussion.
Cassius replied to the thread Episode 356 - EATAQ38 - The Skeptics Argue Every Side But Conceal Their Conclusions.
I am adding this summary prepared with Claude to EpicurusToday.com:
https://epicurustoday.com/02-key-sources/identicalthings/
Cassius replied to the thread Episode 356 - EATAQ38 - The Skeptics Argue Every Side But Conceal Their Conclusions.
When we finished last week we were grapplying with the following statement by Lucullus (the Stoic), and we will start again with it this week, from Section 18 of Book 2 -
And that must be very absurd which you sometimes are in the habit of saying, when perceptions are imprinted on the mind, that what you say is, not that there is no difference between the impressions, but only that there is none between certain appearances and forms which they assume. As if perceptions were not judged of by…
Cassius posted the thread Episode 356 - EATAQ38 - The Skeptics Argue Every Side But Conceal Their Conclusions.
Welcome to Episode 356 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our…
Kalosyni replied to the thread Ancient Greek/Roman Customs, Culture, and Clothing.
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I can't find any source that says "styled and trimmed", just this:
Alciphron's Letters of Parasites, translation by A. R. Benner and F. H. Forbes, as quoted in The Mask of Socrates, the relevant sentence reads: “And there was the Epicurean Zenocrates, not indifferent to his curls, he also proud of his full beard..."
Bryan replied to the thread Ancient Greek/Roman Customs, Culture, and Clothing.
“The Epicureans wore styled and trimmed beards” I do not see the source for this information in the article… do we know where the source is?
Cassius posted the thread Excellent Article By Eikadistes On The "Epicurean Paradox" About the Gods.
This new article by Eikadistes is one of the best and most thorough articles on this topic I have seen.
I suspect for years to come this will be the definitive treatment of a topic that is a source of endless confusion.
Congratulations Eikadistes!
https://societyofepicurus.com/epicurean-paradox/
Pacatus replied to the thread Episode 355 - EATAQ37 - Have We Lived All Our Lives In A House of Mirrors?.
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Yes. Absolutely. But it can take time, education and effort (and often some kind of therapy) to unravel conditioning (often fear-baesd) that begins at very early age, and becomes subconsciously embedded (I have before compared it to a long, slow, multifaceted hypnosis.) Some people are able to extricate themselves earlier than others. I was a slow learner. ;(
Cassius replied to the thread Episode 355 - EATAQ37 - Have We Lived All Our Lives In A House of Mirrors?.
Summary
Continuing Book Two of Cicero's Academic Questions, Cassius and Joshua go back through Section 18 in detail, focusing on the figure at the center of Lucullus's epistemology: the Stoic wise man, who withholds his assent from anything that could possibly be false. To show what such a sage was supposed to be, Joshua turns to Heraclitus the Grammarian's Homeric Problems, which recasts the labors of Hercules as Stoic moral victories (the Hydra, for instance, becomes pleasure, which grows…
Cassius replied to the thread Episode 355 - EATAQ37 - Have We Lived All Our Lives In A House of Mirrors?.
As I see it at least one huge problem with both Plato's cave and any allegory that we are living in a house of mirrors is this: Who gives Plato the right to suggest that nature is the equivalent of a set of manipulators who are holding us in chains while they cast shadows on a wall? Why would anyone accept the idea that nature has created a "house of mirrors" and thereby intentionally distorted the things that we see? Why not simply accept that nature has given us our senses as they are for…
Pacatus replied to the thread Episode 355 - EATAQ37 - Have We Lived All Our Lives In A House of Mirrors?.
Oh agreed. But I also think that often people seem to "defraud" themselves into such beliefs, mostly from fear and social/cultural conditioning. (I know I did for many years.)
Cassius replied to the thread Episode 355 - EATAQ37 - Have We Lived All Our Lives In A House of Mirrors?.
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That's definitely the word used in philosophic discussion, but I think it's far too generous and sounds much too nice to adequately describe what is really going on. Plato and the Stoics aren't saying "Why not the best?" They are saying "I don't like what I see so I am going to substitute my own judgment for that of Nature." That's not something I would credit with the noble-souding name of "idealism" - I'd call it "fraud."
Beyond Good And Evil
(Gutenberg edition, translated by Helen…
Cassius replied to the thread EpicureanFriends Provisional AI Posting Policies.
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I completely agree as to society in general. Here, however, we can hold people to that standard.
Pacatus replied to the thread Episode 355 - EATAQ37 - Have We Lived All Our Lives In A House of Mirrors?.
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In a word: Idealism. Michael Onfray in his Hedonist Manifesto pretty much lays it all back on Plato -- And Plato's successors (e.g. Christianity, Kant):
"There is only this: the real, matter, life, and living. Platonism declares war on all of it, looking to punish anyone who celebrates the drive for life."
And: "Unlike Plato, whose rigorous curriculum at the Academy was designed to orient the soul upward and away from the coarse earth, Epicurus would have us breathe the air about us more…
Cassius replied to the thread Episode 355 - EATAQ37 - Have We Lived All Our Lives In A House of Mirrors?.
Also - as we go forward in the coming weeks, i am going to suggest that there is a common thread - a common denominator - a common problem - shared by both the Plato's cave analogy and the house of mirrors analogy - that Epicurus is revealing to us as the source of so much confusion and worse.
I also think that this common denominator is an issue which Nietzsche echos Epicurus in pointing out - and that DeWitt also points out (with less intensity than Nietzsche).
This is something I will come…
Pacatus replied to the thread EpicureanFriends Provisional AI Posting Policies.
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I'm not going to swing back into the AI debates. I will just say that only a little critical observation of society -- including business and politics -- suggests those expectations are at least a bit naïve.
Cassius replied to the thread Episode 355 - EATAQ37 - Have We Lived All Our Lives In A House of Mirrors?.
I think this is a good episode covering important points, including one with which we closed the episode, in which Lucullus (the Stoic) thows an accusation at the Skeptics:
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We'll return to this in the upcoming episode so any suggestions as to the best ways of unwinding this will be appreciated!
Cassius replied to the thread Episode 355 - EATAQ37 - Have We Lived All Our Lives In A House of Mirrors?.
Lucretius Today Podcast Episode 354 is now available: "Have We Lived All Our Lives In A House Of Mirrors?"
https://www.spreaker.com/episode/75827181/media
Kalosyni replied to the thread Ancient Greek/Roman Customs, Culture, and Clothing.
Edit note: I have not been able to find textual sources for the following information regarding Epicureans.
[…]
Source [URL:https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/stubble-and-statecraft-how-beards-grew-political]
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Edit note on October 17, 2026: have not found a true source for the phrase "styled and trimmed".
Cassius replied to the thread EpicureanFriends Provisional AI Posting Policies.
Over the last 20 years probably no single person has had more of an impact on developments in the computer world than Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux, the software kernel that runs so much of the computer world today.
I don't consider Torvalds to be a paragon of philosophic virtue or an exemplar of tactful communication. His views on philosophy and politics seem to be all over the board and very hard to categorize. Despite that - and maybe in part because of it - his views on innovation…
Cassius replied to the thread The Full Epicurean Reasoning Regarding a Material Universe.
Thanks for the link. I think I've seen people link to this before but I've never listened myself and it would be interesting to get feedback from those who have.
In the meantime, I have to question the attention to detail, or sympathy to Epicurus, of a professor who would post a video with an image of a man who is not only clearly not Epicurus (as we know from the ancient busts) bit who is also not nearly as impressive visually as the real Epicurus.
Kalosyni replied to the thread The Full Epicurean Reasoning Regarding a Material Universe.
Beyond just reading Book 3 of Lucretius, this lecture could be helpful regarding the nature of the soul:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cB39d7GhXJo
Cassius posted the thread Philosophical Implications of Jason And The Argonauts.
I am setting up this thread as a placeholder for potential future discussion of the story of Jason and the Argonauts. This comes to mind because there is a well known 1963 movie version which I recently came across, and due to the recent rise of interest in the Odyssey given the recent movie version.
No doubt there are a lot of things going on in this story that conflict with Epicurean ideas, but probably there is benefit in knowing the outlines of a story that was apparently very well known…
Kalosyni replied to the thread The Full Epicurean Reasoning Regarding a Material Universe.
Here are my notes from last night's Zoom meeting:
Apologies as these are pretty rough. After the topic was presented, we went around the Zoom circle to ask for thoughts. I did not take note of who said what, so these are anonymous.
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atomic theory --> occums razor --> no way of verifying after-life --> different religions have different views
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Why does a material soul not continue on?
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traditions embedded in the culture
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science agrees with Epicurus ---> no supernatural/ no…
Cassius replied to the thread The Full Epicurean Reasoning Regarding a Material Universe.
We had a good discussion of this topic in our live meeting of October 14.
It's not enough just to have a passing familiarity with genera Epicurean physics or even atomnism. Simply granting that the universe is made of particles does not at all guarantee that you are going to reach the same conclusions Epicurus did - Democritus famously reached very different conclusions, and as a result the Skeptic were able to throw Democritus' positions against both the Epicureans and the Stoics in the way…
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