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Cassius
September 18, 2025 at 6:06 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Chump!.PostI think we'll be hearing more from Chump soon. In the meantime, here's what he's now sent me:
[…]
Welcome aboard Chump! -
Cassius
PostSeptember 18, 2025 at 5:39 AM From our zoom discussion last night, here is another way of asking the question:
The average person likely presumes that "the highest pleasure," is what we might call "ecstasy," and Epicurus says something not far from that in U423 (from Plutarch) where… -
Cassius
PostSeptember 18, 2025 at 5:34 AM […]
Now there is a statement that deserves more comment, because I place that framing squarely within the "heap" / sorities framing. Like grains of sand, there are myriad experiences that can be described as pleasure, and yet "happiness" or "the best… -
Rolf
September 18, 2025 at 2:26 AM Replied to the thread Happy Birthday General Thread.PostI hope you had a good birthday, Bryan! -
Adrastus
PostSeptember 18, 2025 at 1:05 AM Thank you very much for this discussion on an extremely important issue in Epicurean Philosophy, and another well elucidated debate within this episode.
Maybe this belongs more in a highly practical, or religious practice area of the forum; but I use this… -
Don
PostSeptember 17, 2025 at 11:54 PM […]
On Ends, I. 38 Itaque non placuit Epicuro medium esse quiddam inter dolorem et voluptatem; illud enim ipsum, quod quibusdam medium videretur, cum omni dolore careret, non modo voluptatem esse, verum etiam summam voluptatem. quisquis enim sentit, quem… -
Kalosyni
September 17, 2025 at 7:18 PM Replied to the thread Ancient Greek/Roman Customs, Culture, and Clothing.PostEpicurus likely would have been familiar with the cult of Eirene (eirene = peace).
[…]
source: Wikipedia -
Don
PostSeptember 17, 2025 at 6:10 PM "feeling no pain" is an idiom for feeling blissful. Just saying
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Cassius
September 17, 2025 at 6:08 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Chump!.PostHello chump ! I received your initial email but did not receive anything in response to my request that you tell us more about your background and interest in Epicurus. Please do that here - we look forward to hearing from you. -
Cassius
September 17, 2025 at 6:07 PM Posted the thread Welcome Chump!.ThreadWelcome chump
There is one last step to complete your registration:
All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).
You must post your response within 24 hours, or… -
Cassius
PostSeptember 17, 2025 at 6:06 PM […]
I agree with that.
But ok, where's the disconnect? Torquatus is making these statements very "flatly," He's speaking almost literally "The absence of pain is pleasure - in fact it's the highest pleasure." And I'd say that Epicurus is doing the same… -
Eikadistes
September 17, 2025 at 5:44 PM Replied to the thread Happy Birthday General Thread.PostHappy birthday, phílos Bryan ! -
Don
PostSeptember 17, 2025 at 4:42 PM […]
That's the point. What they rightly subjectively perceive as blahness isn't the highest pleasure. They are not really free from all pain. I would go so far as to say that none of us are ever going to be at the highest pleasure. We're not gods. Even… -
Cassius
PostSeptember 17, 2025 at 4:13 PM […]
Ok that's why I am thinking that the approach would be controversial, but I am not yet sure that it isn't essentially what Epicurus is saying. Again playing off Joshua's observation, we'd have to deal with the subjectivity of the whole question and… -
Don
PostSeptember 17, 2025 at 3:41 PM "It depends how you look at it" plays into the other person's hands. You've accepted their terms and are agreeing to play by their rules on their turf.
They're "looking at it" ....... Okay, I hesitate to say "the wrong way," but that's what I want to say.… -
Matteng
September 17, 2025 at 3:27 PM Replied to the thread The relationship between pleasure and pain and emotions and feelings.PostVery important subject for me, but have no final conclusions on it. Interesting for me is also the difference between the Stoic and Epicurean view.
Seems that Epicureans focus more on pleasure/pain and the Stoics more on negative Emotions.
Epicureans:… -
Cassius
PostSeptember 17, 2025 at 3:15 PM Don I note you did not comment on this:
[…]
Does that mean that you think "it depends on how you look at it" would be incorrect?
In this case we're not talking about physics, where the ultimate questions certainly don't depend on how you look at it. Atoms… -
Cassius
PostSeptember 17, 2025 at 3:07 PM […]
As to especially "then you are not alive but dead" and also "someone who is alive is always feeling," that is not the way most people talk, and Cicero is going to win that argument every day of the week in front of most juries, Greek, Roman, or today.… -
Don
PostSeptember 17, 2025 at 2:42 PM Are you alive?
Yes?
What are you feeling right now?
Nothing. I am in a neutral state, I am feeling neither pleasure nor pain.
Then you are not alive but dead.
Harrrrumph! Well, the absence of pain is not the highest pleasure.
If you are alive, you are… -
Cassius
PostSeptember 17, 2025 at 2:13 PM […]
Maybe what I am saying is so obvious that it doesn't need to be said.
I'm looking for "what would Epicurus have said himself if he had been present with Cicero or Plutarch and been allowed to speak further beyond what Torquatus was allowed to say, or… -
Don
PostSeptember 17, 2025 at 1:07 PM […]
Depends what you mean by "different". My impression is that most everyone would agree that alert, excited, happy, calm, etc are positive feelings; and stressed, upset, nervous, bored are negative feelings. Those positive and negative sides can be… -
Don
PostSeptember 17, 2025 at 1:01 PM […]
I would bet that that "middle ground" is not as stable as your argument and Cicero's is making it out to be. If you actually ask someone supposedly experiencing this "middle ground," I would meet they'd defer to adjectives like calm, bored, relaxed,… -
Cassius
PostSeptember 17, 2025 at 12:04 PM Don -- Yes that circle represents another model. Like any other model I would expect that the author of the model would say that it is grounded in reality, so I would say the original question remains.
For example, all of those headings around the… -
Kalosyni
September 17, 2025 at 8:29 AM Replied to the thread Happy Birthday General Thread.Post -
Don
PostSeptember 17, 2025 at 8:26 AM Or the circumplex model of affect is applicable:
As one moves around the circle, you experience varying intensities of pleasant and unpleasant/painful feelings. But there's are only two big baskets: pleasant/unpleasant overall. As long as you are a… -
Cassius
September 17, 2025 at 7:16 AM Replied to the thread Happy Birthday General Thread.PostYes, Happy Birthday Bryan! Thank you for all that you do! -
Cassius
September 17, 2025 at 4:15 AM Replied to the thread Happy Birthday General Thread.PostHappy Birthday to Bryan! Learn more about Bryan and say happy birthday on Bryan's timeline: Bryan -
Don
PostSeptember 16, 2025 at 8:37 PM You two did a great job of defining the "problem" of "the feelings are two" and giving some great answers.
I would only add that Cicero sets up this pain and pleasure spectrum. My analogy would be the timeline we currently use to reckon years. Call the… -
Don
September 16, 2025 at 6:38 PM Replied to the thread Episode 298 - TD26 - Facts And Feelings In Epicurean Philosophy - Part 1".PostI get why some translators use static, but I feel they want it to connotate "a state - ic" and not necessarily frozen. That's what I get about static.
καταστηματικός; κᾰτᾰ́στημα = a state, condition (e.g., weather conditions);… -
Cassius
September 16, 2025 at 5:42 PM Replied to the thread Episode 298 - TD26 - Facts And Feelings In Epicurean Philosophy - Part 1".PostOne of the things I included in both episodes 298 and 299 was that I thought that lucretius' description of the pleasure that comes from knowing that we are free from the ills that so many others are subject to is probably a good example of this… -
Cassius
September 16, 2025 at 5:37 PM Replied to the thread Episode 298 - TD26 - Facts And Feelings In Epicurean Philosophy - Part 1".Post[…]
I agree that eventually the goal is to state specific examples of the type of pleasure that is meant. And I think the examples you are giving are correct. But I'm concerned that you and I reach the same conclusions but only after years of looking at… -
Don
September 16, 2025 at 5:26 PM Replied to the thread Episode 298 - TD26 - Facts And Feelings In Epicurean Philosophy - Part 1".Post[…]
I don't think so. It's the phrase "+ pleasure" that's important.
But I've never liked the static or rest analogies. Off the top of my head, I'd be more readily drawn to a clear blue sky, free of clouds, and the night sky awash with various stars,… -
Cassius
September 16, 2025 at 3:49 PM Replied to the thread Episode 298 - TD26 - Facts And Feelings In Epicurean Philosophy - Part 1".PostAlso, if the car analogy works, that would suggest that a "ship at sea" vs a "ship in port" analogy would also work. If that one works, I'd say (or hope) that people would be less likely to think that "a ship in port" is superior to or could take the… -
Cassius
September 16, 2025 at 3:35 PM Replied to the thread Episode 298 - TD26 - Facts And Feelings In Epicurean Philosophy - Part 1".Post[…]
Yes, in this case I worded the question the way I did for a purpose, and added what seems to me to be the very understandable, and in this case likely correct interpretation of the specific phrases.
You're describing in your answer kinetic pleasure and… -
Cassius
PostSeptember 16, 2025 at 3:12 PM I've added this one to substack here:
https://epicureanfriends.substack.com/p/was-epicurus…-that-there-are -
Don
September 16, 2025 at 1:30 PM Replied to the thread Episode 298 - TD26 - Facts And Feelings In Epicurean Philosophy - Part 1".PostI'm going to ignore the Grokkery above.
To answer your question, I see katastematic pleasure as that which results, at least in part, from the weeding out of fear of the gods and death. Once those are truly rooted out - not just intellectually but… -
Cassius
PostSeptember 16, 2025 at 11:31 AM Episode 299 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. Today our episode is entitled: "Was Epicurus Right That There Are Only Two Feelings - Pleasure And Pain?
[media]https://www.spreaker.com/episode/67780005/media -
Cassius
September 16, 2025 at 9:01 AM Replied to the thread Episode 298 - TD26 - Facts And Feelings In Epicurean Philosophy - Part 1".Post[…]
These two sentences here I think are beyond dispute and are definitely among the first things that anyone should take away from this subject. -
Cassius
September 16, 2025 at 8:53 AM Replied to the thread Episode 298 - TD26 - Facts And Feelings In Epicurean Philosophy - Part 1".PostAs a comparison for testing a "generic" response, I posed the exact same question to Grok. At this point I am just thinking out loud and not saying that Grok has it right by any means:
[…] -
Cassius
September 16, 2025 at 8:48 AM Replied to the thread Episode 298 - TD26 - Facts And Feelings In Epicurean Philosophy - Part 1".Post[…]
Don:
Would you say that the first and primary meaning that should be associated with the term "kinetic " is "something that arises from factors and circumstances that 'stand out,'" and that the term "katastematic" should be associated with "a… -
Kalosyni
September 16, 2025 at 8:18 AM Replied to the thread The relationship between pleasure and pain and emotions and feelings.PostAn interesting book was referenced in one of the articles - Touch: The Science of Hand, Heart, and Mind, by David J. Linden.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22571508-touch
[…]
*****
According to Diogenes Laertius, book X, in the list of books written by… -
Kalosyni
September 16, 2025 at 8:16 AM Posted the thread The relationship between pleasure and pain and emotions and feelings.ThreadI did this search for consideration of the interplay between nature (natural processes of the body) , sensations of pleasure and pain, together with the inter-relationship between emotions and feelings.
I will put a list of reference articles provided by… -
Don
September 15, 2025 at 10:52 PM Replied to the thread Episode 298 - TD26 - Facts And Feelings In Epicurean Philosophy - Part 1".PostI thought it might be interesting to listeners to see what other quotes exist from Epicurus' "On the End-Goal" (Περι Τελος): https://www.attalus.org/translate/epicurus.html#k45
As is also my wont, I want to *briefly* address the "pleasures of the… -
Cassius
PostSeptember 15, 2025 at 6:22 PM As i am editing I can point out that this week we focus on the second of three challenges Cicero raised in Section XX of part 3 of Tusculan disputations. - that Epicurus is wrong that there are only two feelings, pleasure and pain.
This challenge is… -
Pacatus
September 15, 2025 at 3:52 PM Replied to the thread Specific Methods of Resistance Against Our Coming AI Overlords.PostA new “educational” function of AI:
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/s…chatbots-cyber/
Quote from the article:
___________________
In Reuters tests, four of the six big chatbots created fake emails from the U.S. Internal Revenue Service or text messages… -
Cassius
PostSeptember 14, 2025 at 6:09 AM […]
The question of the proper order of priority is why according to Diogenes Laertius Epicurus held that:
"Logic they reject as misleading. For they say it is sufficient for physicists to be guided by what things say of themselves. Thus in The Canon… -
Raphael Raul
PostSeptember 13, 2025 at 10:16 PM Good evening, Cassius. I hope you had a good dinner.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply to my post.
I am clarifying this statement you wrote in your post.
"But the real heart of the question is the role of Pleasure vs reason as the guide. I gather you're… -
Cassius
PostSeptember 13, 2025 at 9:13 PM Thank you for that post Raphael! You're covering several things and I expect there will be lots of reactions to different parts.
I am inclined to want to focus on what I think is a position we share, which is that Epicurean philosophy does not in fact… -
Cassius
PostSeptember 13, 2025 at 8:24 PM -
Raphael Raul
PostSeptember 13, 2025 at 6:34 PM Again, it was a fascinating and even passionate discussion last Sunday on the topic of "Comparing The Pleasure of A Great Physicist Making A Discovery To the Pleasure of a Lion Eating an Antelope or Lamb." Some people have stated in the threads and the…
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