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Peter Konstans
PostJune 18, 2026 at 5:54 AM […]
The sense that this is a contradiction is an illusion. To resolve the contradiction we have to do two things.
First, we have to explore what motivates people to try to influence other people in general. The answer is: to extract a desired reaction from… -
Cassius
June 17, 2026 at 9:32 PM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).Post[…]
No no not at all directed at you - it's just a general reference to a topic that's regularly on my mind - how to balance competing priorities. This topic has covered a lot of ground and that comment arose from my constantly thinking about how to… -
Todd
PostJune 17, 2026 at 7:52 PM […]
Not that I'm aware of. I believe he coined the phrase as part of his theory of discourse ethics.
I'm not very familiar with his overall body of work though. -
DaveT
June 17, 2026 at 7:46 PM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).Post[…]
I'm not sure how to take this comment to my statement above. Please explain if you are speaking to me as "one of those"? -
Cassius
PostJune 17, 2026 at 7:45 PM Thanks for the link on Habermas. Was he using that phrase in regard to determinism? -
DaveT
PostJune 17, 2026 at 7:13 PM […]
Hawking meant the phrase to explain our cosmic insignificance not as a perjorative. -
Cassius
PostJune 17, 2026 at 6:38 PM […]
Excellent pithy phrasing.
I suspect the Epicurus would say the same formula applies here also:
To deny the possibility of knowledge is a performative contradiction.
The self-refutation argument seems to have been a major tool in Epicurus' toolchest..
… -
Titus
PostJune 17, 2026 at 4:06 PM Personally, I think it's obvious that some of Epicurus' theories about how the world functions don't match with what is scientific consensus nowadays.
On the other hand, Epicurus and Epicurean philosophy in general still masters describing natural… -
Todd
PostJune 17, 2026 at 3:05 PM I was just ready to post this, when I saw the link Cassius posted to the other FAQ. It mentions the self-refutation argument, which I think is important. Anyway...
Whether causal determinism is true or false from the perspective of an outside… -
Cassius
PostJune 17, 2026 at 2:33 PM I note that these comments would really have been more appropriate under the FAQ entry for Determinism / Free Will, but our existing entry was little more than a stub.
I've updated that with a summary of the discussions we've had elsewhere on the forum. … -
Cassius
PostJune 17, 2026 at 1:55 PM Without rehashing what is in the FAQ material, one of the most clear statements of how the physics plays into these issue occurs in Lucretius Book 3. Of course someone can deny the conclusion, and say that Epicurus / Lucretius were wrong, and that we… -
Don
PostJune 17, 2026 at 12:56 PM […]
I'm honestly trying to understand how both these can be true.
How can our behavior be determined fully by brain physics and environment BUT we can still influence other humans. If all is determined by physics, doesn't that mean even the influencers are… -
Peter Konstans
PostJune 17, 2026 at 10:12 AM The notion of moral responsibility is not the same as the notion that human behavior is (to some degree) reformable. Moral responsibility implies that humans are rational agents endowed with free will. If one accepts physicalism, that is just false, an… -
Cassius
PostJune 17, 2026 at 10:12 AM In my view everything posted in the thread so far has been valuable for setting the stage of the debate. It is good for people to know where Tim O'Keefe stands and how he disagrees with Sedley on emergence.
Also, Don has focused on some very important… -
Cassius
June 17, 2026 at 7:08 AM Replied to the thread Relationship between AI/LLMs and prolepsis.Post[…]
i agree with Peter K's post and "liked it." I singled out this sentense only because I don't think he meant to imply that animals are not conscious, or only a "human" brain can be conscious. If you did mean that Peter please correct me, but I took… -
Cassius
June 17, 2026 at 7:02 AM Replied to the thread Relationship between AI/LLMs and prolepsis.Post[…]
At least at present that's the way I am seeing a relationship that is productive to discuss.
No doubt there are many differences, but i would not underestimate the significance of even this short part of Martin's statement.
When the major other… -
Peter Konstans
June 17, 2026 at 6:58 AM Replied to the thread Relationship between AI/LLMs and prolepsis.PostIf prolepsis is roughly equivalent to the notion of pattern recognition that our cognition relies on, then AI is just the collective pool of human prolepsis, a machine packed with enormous quantities of information that humans use as an auxiliary for… -
Don
PostJune 17, 2026 at 6:50 AM There's a lot of philosophical jargon flying through this thread, and I'll freely admit some of it is going over my head. For y'all's consideration:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/incompatibilism-theories/
… -
Peter Konstans
PostJune 17, 2026 at 6:01 AM Yes, accepting materialism and atomism entails abandoning both the weak and the strong variations of emergence.
As I see it, Epicurean physics is based on the rejection of Democritean compatibilism. Democritus thought free will is compatible with atomic… -
Martin
June 17, 2026 at 1:55 AM Replied to the thread Relationship between AI/LLMs and prolepsis.Post[…]
[…]
I do see an analogy between prolepsis and LLMs. In both cases, pattern recognition built on past input is applied to new input to generate a response. This analogy may be weaker for ancient Epicurean prolepsis than for what prolepsis updated with… -
Don
June 16, 2026 at 10:14 PM Replied to the thread Relationship between AI/LLMs and prolepsis.PostLLMs are nothing like the way the brain works. Since I don't think prolepsis isn't necessarily how the brain actually functions, I'm sharing a couple videos explaining the brain as prediction machine. The mind doesn't break reality into tokens and assign… -
Kalosyni
June 16, 2026 at 2:17 PM Replied to the thread Relationship between AI/LLMs and prolepsis.PostHere is a good video explaining LLM's:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=NKnZYvZA7w4
Martin do you have any input on the comparison between prolepsis and LLM's? -
Kalosyni
June 16, 2026 at 1:58 PM Replied to the thread Relationship between AI/LLMs and prolepsis.PostAll posts mentioning the gods have been moved (and general prolepsis comments by Bryan have been copied and exist in both threads. Also, Titus' AI query exists in both threads).
New thread split off to discuss prolepsis of the gods:
Prolepsis and the… -
Cassius
June 16, 2026 at 1:34 PM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).Post[…]
That "student" term would describe all of us, and is one of the two major goals of the forum.
The other major goal of the forum is to build a community of "advocates" for Epicurean philosophy as a coherent body of thought for normal people. That's… -
Kalosyni
ThreadJune 16, 2026 at 1:26 PM Admin Edit: This thread is for discussion on the nature of the gods spurred on by a section below: "An especially interesting case: the gods" (A number of posts have been moved or copied depending on the content).
For discussion on LLM's please visit this… -
Cassius
PostJune 16, 2026 at 11:36 AM So you reject basically the entire thrust of "emergence," and you see that as Tim OKeefe's position too?
I put "emergence" in quotes because I am not sure what aspect you are focusing on.
Does it come down in your view to the conclusion that we are all… -
DaveT
June 16, 2026 at 11:29 AM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).Post[…]
I enjoyed your overall post in which you ended with the above thought. I guess I'm not an Epicurean but rather a student of Epicurean thought and an adopter of many of his methodologies for discovering knowledge. -
Peter Konstans
PostJune 16, 2026 at 8:53 AM IMO emergence has become popular because it promises a middle way between dualism and physicalism. You can have your cake of not believing in the supernatural and eat it with the pleasure of knowing that, while the cake is made of atoms, it is somehow… -
Peter Konstans
PostJune 16, 2026 at 8:32 AM In this debate I side with Tim O' Keefe. Here's the abstract of his paper.
[…] -
Cassius
PostJune 16, 2026 at 7:42 AM Thanks for the comment Peter.
[…]
To what opinions does that lead you which conflict with the Sedley opinions in "Epicurean Anti_reductionism"?
Article - David Sedley - 1988 - "Epicurean Anti-Reductionism" -
Peter Konstans
PostJune 16, 2026 at 7:37 AM Reductionism is true for the simple reason that we know of nothing that can't be reduced to atoms. Literally everything is made of bosons and fermions. I personally favor the reductionist version of Epicureanism. So called emergent phenomena aren't real… -
Don
June 16, 2026 at 7:36 AM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).Post[…]
Thank you!! No, you are not misunderstanding... I just need to "get back to the books" to paraphrase Philodemus. I am woefully out of practice!
What I was saying is that we don't have any extant texts from Epicurus himself placing the gods in the… -
Cassius
June 16, 2026 at 7:06 AM Replied to the thread Relationship between AI/LLMs and prolepsis.PostADMIN NOTE: Speaking of things breaking apart due to atomic collisions, I think Kalosyni is looking at dividing this thread up into more manageable topics such as separating the prolepsis of gods topic from prolepsis analogies to llm (while leaving… -
Cassius
June 16, 2026 at 7:03 AM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).Post[…]
I don't recall that we've discussed this but it would probably be interesting to pin down exactly what it was about being "between the worlds" that the Epicureans would have associated with the idea that this was a particularly hospitable place.
I… -
Don
June 16, 2026 at 6:52 AM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).Post[…]
Thanks! I've changed to nowadays to be clearer. -
Cassius
June 16, 2026 at 6:47 AM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).Post[…]
This is probably what you meant as written but just to be clear - this is not missing a "don't" is it? (The "anymore" rather than "nowadays" at the end is the main reason i ask that.)
And thanks to Bryan for immediately weighing in with some texts -… -
Bryan
June 16, 2026 at 1:37 AM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).Post[…]
Let me throw in some quotes as a jumping-off point, I may be misunderstanding.
"...that Cosmoi such as this are also infinite in number is able to be thoroughly comprehended, and that such a Cosmos also has the force to be produced both in a cosmos and… -
Don
June 15, 2026 at 11:34 PM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).Post[…]
This may not turn out exactly as you thought it might...
I have the utmost respect for TauPhi 's perspective and insightful comments in this thread and through the forum. Some of my responses below may be a little provocative, but they're not… -
Cassius
June 15, 2026 at 5:08 PM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).Post[…]
This aspect of the "idealist" position as cited by Bryan reminds me to clarify: I think Epicurus' position on divinity served important goal-identifying and psychological purposes for Epicurus (which is a positive use of the term ideal), just as… -
Bryan
June 15, 2026 at 4:19 PM Replied to the thread Relationship between AI/LLMs and prolepsis.Post[…]
We have the category "pending (προσμένον)" for things which are simultaneously not attested (μὴ ἐπιμαρτυρούμενον) and not contested (μὴ ἀντιμαρτυρούμενον), because indeed in that case there is no evidence either way.
We also have "pending" for… -
Pacatus
June 15, 2026 at 2:32 PM Replied to the thread $toicism, Broicism, and stoicisM.PostReminds a bit of Emily Austin’s questioning whether modern Stoics are actually – Stoics. (Though she wasn’t as harsh as Bates.) -
Pacatus
June 15, 2026 at 2:26 PM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).PostOne might take Epicurus’ arguments for a “realist” view of the gods as suggestive, rather than “dogmatic.” I don’t know if that’s too much of a wrenching of what he said, but he was, in part, deconstructing any sort of Platonic idealism throughout.
For… -
Pacatus
June 15, 2026 at 1:19 PM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).Post[…]
Just as an aside: the Pyrrhonians would not call those “false” but indeterminate or undecidable (ἀνεπίκριτα). -
DaveT
June 15, 2026 at 12:02 PM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).PostI appreciate all the comments made on my original questions and observations. I often look for similarities in teachings before and after Epicurus.
I hope this doesn't stir up a hornets nest from this thread (which everyone is probably fatigued over) But,… -
Titus
June 15, 2026 at 11:57 AM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).Post[…]
In that moment where we start talking about something that is outside of our sphere of influence, it becomes symbolic. I agree that they are very alien because they master those both points of life being limited and of emotional imperfection, due to… -
TauPhi
June 15, 2026 at 11:46 AM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).Post[…]
Spledid idea! Almost as good as appointing Lucifer as a gatekeeper at St. Peter's gates of heaven. It should be fine. -
Cassius
June 15, 2026 at 11:37 AM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).Post[…]
To supplement my brilliant humor, I am hoping that some of our "idealists" like Don will weigh in on the objection Tau Phi is raising to what Titus has suggested. I personally don't consider that the two camps on this topic are really in conflict,… -
Cassius
June 15, 2026 at 11:08 AM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).Post[…]
If this keeps up we're going to have to appoint Tau Phi as Moderator-Pro-Tem of the SUAVITY forum!
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TauPhi
June 15, 2026 at 10:59 AM Replied to the thread Prolepsis and the Epicurean Gods (discussion split from earlier thread started by Titus).Post[…]
I do differ in some areas but I also love Epicurean philosophy. It has benefited my life enormously and it still does. Even if I don't accept the philosophy in its entirety, I agree with most of it. It may look sometimes that I'm picking a fight but I…
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