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TauPhi
May 17, 2026 at 6:23 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Telos is not for you to choose Cassius . It's the ultimate goal for living creatures set by Nature. Telos for living creatures is pleasure. Human rationality can change it as much as I can rationally decide I can jump 10 feet high. I can't. It… -
Don
May 17, 2026 at 6:16 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Sure, everyone can choose their course in life, what path they take.
But if we're talking about the goal/telos/summum bonum, no. That's baked into existence. The whole deal with that is what is the ultimate end, in the case of Epicurus' philosophy,… -
Todd
May 17, 2026 at 5:46 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostOk...just one more thing that maybe will make sense.
What would you say if I told you my ultimate end was doing laundry?
Would you say, well, you have free will...so that is your choice.
Or would you rather say, I don't think you understand what an ultimate… -
Todd
May 17, 2026 at 5:34 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
No, not saying anything like that.
[…]
I am not trying to put any limits on concrete choices, beyond what nature herself imposes.
But I do think there are logical constraints on what can be considered an ultimate end.
I won't try to push this any further… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 5:22 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Pretty obviously we are going in circles so I will think for a while before replying further. But as far as I am concerned I can choose as my ultimate end virtue, or piety, or pleasure, or absence of pain viewed as nothingness as some people argue,… -
Todd
May 17, 2026 at 5:07 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
It's not that it is unchoosable, it's that it is self-contradictory.
If you have a reason for choosing something as an ultimate end, then you are implying that *the reason* is actually a higher end. So you have definitely chosen an end, but by your… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 5:01 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Why? What about an ultimate end makes it unchoosable using reason in making the choice? -
Todd
May 17, 2026 at 4:57 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I don't feel like it is.
Yes, we can choose. We can choose pain.
For the sake of argument, I am conceding that we can choose ultimate ends.
My key points are:
1) If you are really choosing an ultimate end, you cannot use any rational/logical criteria in… -
RoseQuartzAxolotl
May 17, 2026 at 4:56 PM Replied to the thread Welcome RoseQuartzAxolotl!.PostThank you Cassius, I am glad to be here. -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 4:53 PM Replied to the thread Welcome RoseQuartzAxolotl!.PostThat's a great opening email. You are very welcome here! -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 4:53 PM Replied to the thread Welcome RoseQuartzAxolotl!.PostRoseQuartzAxolotl (that's quite a user name!) tells us this:
Hello Cassius and all!
I'm 34 and I live in the Chicagoland area with my husband and our Shetland Sheepdog. I work on the systems side of education.
I grew up fairly conservative and fundamental… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 4:51 PM Posted the thread Welcome RoseQuartzAxolotl!.ThreadWelcome RoseQuartzAxolotl
There is one last step to complete your registration:
All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).
You must post your response within… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 4:48 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostWell either in English or in Greek, we still choose our own utlimate course in life, do we not? I certainly understand that nature gives us the feelings of pleasure and pain, but it is exactly the fact that we can at any particular moment in life choose… -
Todd
May 17, 2026 at 4:34 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I mean the telos. -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 4:30 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Yes, this is the step I clearly don't understand. Don can you help me? Presumably there is something about the word "ultimate" I am not following. -
Todd
May 17, 2026 at 4:17 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I am not denying free will. I don't think free will has anything to do with my argument.
It might be relevant to note that free will doesn't mean you can choose anything. Nature has set limits.
[…]
I am not saying you can't choose. I'm saying you can't… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 3:53 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I gather this is the heart of your argument, and I am going to have to think about it because I don't follow it as written.
1. it's a bedrock principal of Epicurus that we have free will, so all sorts of arguments can be used to persuade people of… -
Todd
May 17, 2026 at 2:49 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Posthttp://www.epicureanfriends.com/wcf/faq-questi…oth-or-neither/
Several (all?) of the pro-ethical hedonism sources there seem to suggest that psychological hedonism would make philosophy unnecessary. Or at least it would make ethics unnecessary, which to… -
Raphael Raul
May 17, 2026 at 12:23 PM Replied to a comment by TauPhi on the image The Nature of Existence is Atoms and Void..Reply (Image/Video)Thank you, Tau Phi, for the information on the quantity of Epicurean writings we have: it amounts to only 1-2%, or about 10,000 words. In comparison, of the 38 plays that Shakepears wrote, it would be like only having half of "A Midsummer Night's Dream",… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 12:20 PM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostI cross-posted with Bryan and just now see his #12
[…]
This sentence covers a lot but I would think it would be true thaL
"judgment is ESTABLISHED in the senses" means more like "judgment is validated by or is tested against the perceptions of the senses ,… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 11:32 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostOk we just finished recording and I am not sure that we hit your precise point Patrikios but I think you will be pleased with this episode and we can come back to that next week. The section we are in is very deep and what you are raising is definitely… -
Bryan
May 17, 2026 at 11:32 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostWe can review Zeno of Citium's "Analogy of the Closing Hand" for contrast (from Academica 2.145):
1. An open hand represents φαντασία (an appearance)
2. Partially closed fingers represent συγκατάθεσις (assent that the appearance is true)
3. A closed fist… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 11:31 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I suspect we don't disagree that much at all, and that much of the issue is the potential of unstated presumptions lurking beneath the surface that both you and I would reject but that we have not fully fleshed out at this point. -
Patrikios
May 17, 2026 at 11:06 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.Post[…]
Cassius ,
I was trying to better understand the difference between katalepsis and prolepsis. I recall reading this paper from David Glidden on Epicurean Prolepsis. Glidden researches Diogenes Laertius and Cicero, when he explains this aspect.
[…]
… -
Todd
May 17, 2026 at 10:58 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Do you think psychological hedonism is incompatible with agency/free will? The only people I have seen making this claim are arguing *against* psychological hedonism. It seems like a straw man.
I will qualify my position slightly. I don't believe it… -
Don
May 17, 2026 at 10:20 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
That quote of mine out of context doesn't really convey what I said.
He is not saying we ought to follow pleasure. To my mind, he's saying we do. Living beings do. What he is doing is calling us to do this deliberately, to understand how to do what… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 8:56 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Ok we are at least temporily on different sides of that phrasing. I think he is saying that because nature does tell us to follow pleasure, we should follow pleasure if we want to be happy. Other people can choose other gioals and other paths but… -
Don
May 17, 2026 at 8:11 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostI'm rethinking that, I don't see an is/ought problem here.
Living beings pursue pleasure and avoid pain.
Epicurus does, to my perspective, state this as an observation of the way things are. A fact of nature.
He is not saying we ought to follow pleasure. To… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 7:54 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostSo it seems I've been repeating the Epicurean formulation " all sensations are true " for many years without fully appreciating that some people (the Stoics) say that some sensations are true and others are false.
I think I've tended to flip back and… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 7:49 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostI can't find a good authoritative page I can screen clip but at the hazard of it being wrong here is chatgpt:
VII.46 is where Diogenes is summarizing Stoic epistemology. The Greek wording varies slightly by edition, but the key line containing katalepsis… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 7:37 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostHere's the Perseus link from which we can look for variations of katalepsis:
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do….perseus-grc1:7 -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 7:30 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostApparently katalepsis is in here somewhere:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lives_of_…ers/Book_VII#45
45. The study of syllogisms they declare to be of the greatest service, as showing us what is capable of yielding demonstration; and this contributes much… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 7:27 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Yes I need to as well. I am concerned that what we are going to find is that certain people reach conclusions from this debate that you and I would consider absurd, and therefore we don't imagine that it's necessary to kick back against.
There's only… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 7:23 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostThanks Don. By the time of DL he'd have been inundated by the Stoic v Skeptic debate and surely would have compared Stoic vs Epicurean views on prolepsis. "A sort of" presumably indicates parallels but not exactly the same (?)
I want to go looking for… -
Don
May 17, 2026 at 7:10 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostFWIW, katalepsis shows up in Diogenes Laertius:
33] By preconception they mean a sort of apprehension or a right opinion or notion, or universal idea stored in the mind ; that is, a recollection of an external object often presented,
Τὴν δὲ… -
Don
May 17, 2026 at 7:00 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
[…]
Exactly, humans can choose to undergo pain in the pursuit of pleasure. I've cited several run of the mill examples in this thread and included the quote above as a rebuttal to other points.
[…]
[…]
Quite right. All living beings are not Epicureans.… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 6:39 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostFor comparison, the key section of Diogenes Laertius 12:
https://handbook.epicureanfriends.com/sbsdlx/#31
I'll quote here the HICKS version just to highlight how the underlined part is a very critical section to look at closely. Bailey and Yonge say here… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 6:30 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostThis short section from the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy on "Ancient Greek Skepticism" is also right on point:
ii. Attack on the Stoics
In general, the Stoics were the ideal target for the skeptics; for, their confidence in the areas of… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 6:23 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostIn today's episode I want us to take the time to read Wikipedia's definition of "kataleptsis" as I think it's going to help us to keep this in mind as we proceed further:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katalepsis
The current version is relatively short and… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 6:14 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
That would cover my view as well on most everything anyone has ever said about this here on the forum that I am aware of, and I would say for the reason that you state in the next line I quote from you below.
[…]
Clearly true. The more I read from the… -
wbernys
May 17, 2026 at 4:14 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostSomething to add to what Don said. I would also wanna add Torquatus and Cicero quotes which seems pretty explicit. Hope this gets added to the FAQ. The main thing which convinced me is throughout the entire book On Moral Ends Torquatus defends… -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 11:15 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostHonestly, I don't care what phrase is used. I've seen Epicurus described as a psychological hedonist, an ethical hedonist, a hedonist. Whatever. Eventually it comes down to hammering an ancient peg into a modern hole, so it only has limited value as a… -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 9:22 PM Replied to the thread New Epicurean Substack: Untroubled.PostI just realized that I forgot to include something that I always try to mention when the subject of Tim O'Keefe or any other professor comes up.
I try not to judge Tim O'Keefe or really even Emily Austin as primarily advocates for Epicurean philosophy. As… -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 9:14 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
That's part of my unease with the entire discussion - I am not aware that there is a single authoritative statement of what psychological hedonism really means, or what should be taken to be its implications. I don't have any problem with the idea… -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 9:00 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I'm more receptive to the argument from infants and animals.
[…]
An infant is fully human, just not a fully formed adult. Same with animals, they are also living beings. Epicurus' argument is that all living beings pursue pleasure and flee pain. Animals… -
Todd
May 16, 2026 at 8:30 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
My response to the arguments against psychological hedonism there would be as follows:
Psychological hedonism only claims that people pursue pleasure, not that they succeed in obtaining it.
The individual is still faced with the problem of predicting… -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 7:57 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostI can see the arguments on both sides and don't have a lot more to add at the moment, but I am adding a summary of what I understand the positions to be into the FAQ at the following entry:
http://www.epicureanfriends.com/wcf/faq-questi…oth-or-neither/ -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 6:43 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
That's very interesting. Don do you agree with that too? -
TauPhi
May 16, 2026 at 4:58 PM Commented on the image The Nature of Existence is Atoms and Void..Comment (Image/Video)Based on David Sedley's 'Lucretius and the Transformation of Greek Wisdom' (1988), one book of 'On Nature' was equivalent to 80 pages of modern book. That's around 20k words. 'On Nature' in total would be around 3000 pages today. Meaningful fragments of… -
Todd
May 16, 2026 at 4:56 PM Replied to a comment by Raphael Raul on the image The Nature of Existence is Atoms and Void..Reply (Image/Video)
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