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Bryan
May 12, 2026 at 5:21 PM Replied to the thread Did Epicurus Advise Marriage or Not? Diogenes Laertius Text Difficulty.PostI agree with you, Cassius. I will parenthetically add that Epicurus does use all of these terms below, and it is clear that they are "grades" or "rankings" of one's advancement, but I doubt the divisions were very formalized.
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Cassius
May 12, 2026 at 4:47 PM Replied to the thread Did Epicurus Advise Marriage or Not? Diogenes Laertius Text Difficulty.PostGreat points. I certainly can't speak definitively but I gather some people think that Epicurus was frequently talking about "sages" in the sense of dedicated lifelong philosophers. There's a book out there "Epicurus The Sage" and i have never liked… -
DaveT
May 12, 2026 at 4:22 PM Replied to the thread Did Epicurus Advise Marriage or Not? Diogenes Laertius Text Difficulty.PostI just finished reading this entire thread. Unless you all came to a final conclusion of whether or when Epicurus condoned marriage, which I did not pick up, I had another thought that might bear some scrutiny. And that is: What did he mean when he… -
Don
May 12, 2026 at 7:20 AM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
Thanks! Fixed. -
Cassius
May 12, 2026 at 7:10 AM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
Far be it for me to question anyone's typing but perhaps you meant a word other than "verified"? -
Don
May 12, 2026 at 7:03 AM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).PostGoing back to the original purpose of this thread: the meaning of PD25 :
As I've said ad nauseum in the past, the Principal Doctrines were not originally "versified" into separate Doctrines. It was one text, granted covering a number of topics but not… -
Cassius
May 12, 2026 at 4:05 AM Replied to the thread Happy Birthday General Thread.PostHappy Birthday to Keith! Learn more about Keith and say happy birthday on Keith's timeline: Keith -
Don
May 11, 2026 at 10:51 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
Don't sweat it. That was a labor of love delving into the Greek. Translation masks a number of similar words that are there in the original. -
wbernys
May 11, 2026 at 10:46 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
Way to make me feel unlearned lol. It seems it is a bigger deal than i let on. -
wbernys
May 11, 2026 at 10:44 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
I see what you mean, especialli with the pet example, got a little void at home i would be lonely without. But that is the point to me, we engage in those joys which may have heartbreak because we want the pleasent memories and feelings of attachment… -
Don
May 11, 2026 at 10:28 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
There may not be many instances of the word ataraxia but terms similar to or derived from it show up in numerous places in the extant texts:
From a post of mine from 2023:
I am starting this thread to compile a list of every time the words Ataraxia,… -
Cassius
May 11, 2026 at 10:17 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
I agree firmly with the idea that getting completely rid of bodily and mental pain constitutes the goal, and that having such a goal serves a very real purpose as identifying an organizing principal, and as I think that you mentioned earlier this is… -
Don
May 11, 2026 at 10:09 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
LOL I know that I'm never completely free from pain. Maybe I'm overgeneralizing though. There's always a twinge, ache, etc, somewhere in my body or mind. Now, if I try, I can ignore them for a bit. If I'm engrossed in a task or engaged in an activity… -
wbernys
May 11, 2026 at 10:08 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
You know the Greek better than i do but i tend to think it's the opposite. I think Epicurus' idea is that those existential dreads you mentioned is what's mainly holding humanity (even good and benevolent people) back from attaining Ataraxia (complete… -
Don
May 11, 2026 at 9:56 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).PostThe discussion about mental and physical pain brings us right back around to ataraxia and aponia all over again.
As time has gone on, I have come to a (semi-firm) belief that ataraxia is not about rooting out every single disturbing fear and anxiety of … -
wbernys
May 11, 2026 at 9:52 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
I worry this may be too strong. I think Epicurus would say that it is both possible to be completely free from pain and we in fact are completely free from pain quite often, i think he would just say the mortality means we sometimes can't and… -
wbernys
May 11, 2026 at 9:47 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
Seems right to me. I think Epicurus might think (personal conjecture) happiness may require absence of pain or joy in the mind, since the feelings of the mind are so intense, but i certainly think one can be "happy" even with pain in the flesh, as… -
Don
May 11, 2026 at 9:40 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
Agreed, because as mortal beings we can never be completely free from every pain, mental or physical. -
Cassius
May 11, 2026 at 8:47 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).PostThanks for that clarification. Presuming that it is possible for one day to be happier than another, and that "happy" here doesn't imply a superlative state, then I sure would be happier without kidney disease than with it!
But back to the more basic and… -
Bryan
May 11, 2026 at 8:26 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).PostDon, I agree with you that is the correct interpretation. It seems the confusion comes from the the superlative as translated by Seneca in Letters to Lucilius, 92.25, which uses "beātissimum"
atquī haec Vōx in ipsā officīnā voluptātis audīta est "… -
Don
May 11, 2026 at 8:18 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
Exactly. Τὴν μακαρίαν... καὶ ἅμα τελευταίαν ἡμέραν τοῦ βίου "The blissful land at the same time last day of my life" -
DaveT
May 11, 2026 at 4:42 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).PostCassius I see your point. Certainly thinking about the longer scale of times past does little good for living in the present. You know, there is no really "better or worse" in this context. And focusing "purely in terms of time", I agree, makes no… -
Cassius
May 11, 2026 at 3:46 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
I think I know what you mean and i agree. However i personally try to avoid focusing the greater than / lesser than analysis purely in terms of "time," even in comparing the short term to the long term. It's probable that it's better to find a way… -
DaveT
May 11, 2026 at 3:28 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
This discussion is very interesting to me since it goes to the practicality of living in a reality of what you can sense, what you have experienced in the past, and our feelings of pleasure and pain. What challenges me, and perhaps all of us is the… -
Don
May 11, 2026 at 2:39 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).PostI've only caught up reading part way but I'll wade in here.
I really don't care whether we talk about psychological hedonism or hedonism or whatever.
What I come back to is that Epicurus said living creatures pursue pleasure and flee from pain. Stop.
That's… -
Cassius
May 11, 2026 at 1:48 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).PostThat second paragraph there from Frances Wright is in my view a good argument for why treating "Absence of pain" as the prime directive has to be explained very carefully.
I know from the moment I first shake hands with a new friend that he may well die… -
Bryan
May 11, 2026 at 1:48 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
I'll start with this quote of Epicurus (Lives 10.135b):
"...therefore, study these things and the things akin to them (by yourself, day and night, and with one similar to yourself) and you will never be thoroughly disturbed, neither in wakefulness nor… -
Cassius
May 11, 2026 at 1:38 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).PostI agree that the distinction between bodily and mental pain is very important.
[…]
But I am not sure we have discussed this before: Can even mental pain be totally eliminated / extinguished? What texts might you cite for that position that the mental pain… -
Bryan
May 11, 2026 at 1:30 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).PostWe are all aware, but it is good to keep in mind that Epicurus distinguishes between bodily pain and mental pain.
Bodily pain can often be mitigated by a prudent lifestyle -- but only mental pain can be fully eliminated through a prudent application of… -
Cassius
May 11, 2026 at 1:22 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).PostPlease do Don as I don't want Wbernys to think I am singling him out!
This is one of my most long-running issues with how Epicurean philosophy is presented. Saying that "the goal is absence of pain" can be explained in a perfectly logical way. However… -
Don
May 11, 2026 at 1:05 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).PostY'all have been active! I need to catch up on my lunch hour! -
Cassius
May 11, 2026 at 12:47 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
I agree with everything in that paragraph. The extra twist I would say rather than "important" I would say "the theoretical goal."
And that gets to the issue - for humans we are not going to be able to eliminate all pain if we want the most happiness… -
Cassius
May 11, 2026 at 12:44 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).PostYep you are right as usual my typing is awful! Missed the NOT there! -
wbernys
May 11, 2026 at 12:34 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
Are you missing a "does not" in the middle here?
Gonna be honest, I don't really see how we disagree, now I'm just kinda confused and want the conversation to be over, since I worry we're just talking past each other.
Final post on topic. Then I'm done.… -
Cassius
May 11, 2026 at 12:16 PM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).PostWell he's certainly not in the best condition he could possibly be, as no one would voluntarily choose kidney disease. But the general point is the happiness and predominance of pleasure do require total absence of pain, so it is perilous to summarize… -
wbernys
May 11, 2026 at 11:46 AM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
He never says it is among the happiest days of his life, he simply says it's a blissful/happy day and that he sets gladness of the mind towards past conversations, this allows him to have more pleasure than pain with the mind offsetting the pains of… -
Cassius
May 11, 2026 at 11:36 AM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
And yet on the last day of his life Epicurus considered himself happy / and/or considered it to be among his happiest days despite his excruciating pain.
How would you reconcile that with what you just wrote as quoted there? -
wbernys
May 11, 2026 at 11:19 AM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
I do agree that 1 is indefensible and needlessly asetic. I don't mind 2 as much but i sympathize with your points. I definitely think Epicurus thought removal of pain was centrally important, because we can't experience the height of pleasure while in… -
Cassius
May 11, 2026 at 11:04 AM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).PostI see this discussion as extremely helpful as well on the question of how best to convey Epicurean philosophy to others.
Here's another example of a similar issue, this from the blurb on "Martin the Epicurean" at Amazon:
I would draw attention to the… -
wbernys
May 11, 2026 at 10:18 AM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).PostYeah. We're just agree to disagree I guess. Nice conversation though. This is an interesting topic I wanted a thread on. -
Cassius
May 11, 2026 at 10:08 AM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
Ok yes then this is just where we have a disagreement as to the best and most accurate way of describing what Epicurus is doing.
It's the same problem I have with this sentence from Brittanica:
psychological hedonism, in philosophical psychology, the… -
wbernys
May 11, 2026 at 9:35 AM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
Mostly, though I would rephrase it, a main problem I see with a lack of psychological hedonism is that without it, you get groundless ideas that you can "rise above pleasure", as if pleasure, because it's natural and for animals means it's something… -
Cassius
May 11, 2026 at 9:32 AM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).PostI see this and I can see where it supports where you are coming from wbernys. What I am not convinced of is that talking in terms of "psychology" is helpful to a philosophical discussion, as I see much potential damage in it for the reasons we are… -
Cassius
May 11, 2026 at 9:15 AM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
OK here in this sentence, it is the "this" I am questioning (I added the underline).
I would say that Epicurus would hold that "pleasure" is nature's guide and that happiness is a life of pleasure and that is what we should pursue, and that we see that… -
wbernys
May 11, 2026 at 9:03 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Keith!.PostHi Keith Happy to have you. That was also the main reason i joined as well. We also have a few youtube videos as well. If you're getting into digging deeper may i recommend Torquatus speech as a seminal work on ethics.
… -
wbernys
May 11, 2026 at 8:58 AM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).PostI always like this passage from Frances Wright as a good example of how seeing humans having a shared goal can be an important thereuptic element.
"‘My sons! do you seek pleasure? I seek her also. Let us make the search together. You have tried wine, you… -
wbernys
May 11, 2026 at 8:54 AM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).Post[…]
Great question, let me say a few things then!
First off, Psychological Hedonism is not exactly a huge issue to me, i certainly don't think it needs to be on any pamphlets as a major point or something. However, i think it may be helpful for two… -
Cassius
May 11, 2026 at 8:35 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Keith!.PostKeith tells us:
I am 77 years old and have had a lifelong interest in Philosophy. This has influenced both my beliefs and how I conduct my life.
Initially this resulted in the dismissal of many social and religious conventions but then turned me to… -
Cassius
May 11, 2026 at 8:35 AM Posted the thread Welcome Keith!.ThreadWelcome Keith
There is one last step to complete your registration:
All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).
You must post your response within 24 hours, or… -
Kalosyni
May 11, 2026 at 8:31 AM Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).PostPD25. "If on each occasion, instead of referring your actions to the end of nature, you turn to some other, nearer, standard, when you are making a choice or an avoidance, your actions will not be consistent with your principles."
Here is my…
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