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Don
July 5, 2026 at 10:14 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
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If I'm being invoked, I feel I need to expand my thoughts on this. Cassius , what I think you're referring to is this below where I wrote:
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I'll freely admit that "etc." is doing a lot of heaving lifting.
As for a what Epicurus thinks is covered… -
Cassius
July 5, 2026 at 8:29 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostMax, thank you for working through all of this so carefully.
On the question Would a tranquil person with no friends, no joys, no positive pleasures — just an undisturbed, empty mind — count as having achieved the blessed life in full?, you wrote:
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I… -
Cassius
July 5, 2026 at 4:25 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostThank you Max for all the detailed responses! -
Godfrey
July 5, 2026 at 4:05 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
This is an intriguing comment!
A pleasure with no intensity would, to me, describe a neutral state, which of course doesn't exist for Epicurus in the pleasure/pain relationship. This is why I prefer "complete" to "perfect". To my understanding a… -
Max DuBoff
July 5, 2026 at 3:35 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
100% agree with this, Don.
Also, in response to Pacatus, yes, pleasures/pain (i.e., pathē in the epistemological sense) are closely linked to sense-perceptions (aisthēseis). That has to be true even for katastematic pleasures. -
Max DuBoff
July 5, 2026 at 3:31 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Definitely appreciate your points a lot, Kalosyni, and I think a lot of what you're saying is just about what connotations there are in English. But Cassius is right: we need to have specialized understandings of words in mind when we're approaching… -
Max DuBoff
July 5, 2026 at 3:27 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Thanks, Cassius! Great questions:
1) KD 20, where the flesh's understanding of pleasure is deemed incorrect for a good life. Also Men. 128 is good evidence--after describing what must be katastematic pleasure, he says "the animal is not in a position… -
Max DuBoff
July 5, 2026 at 3:19 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Ahh, interesting, No, I'd say the most important thing about friendship is that it's an insurance policy against hardship, so it allows us not to be afraid about the future. It directly contributes to katastematic pleasure by removing fear for the… -
Max DuBoff
July 5, 2026 at 3:16 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Ahh, good, thanks! Yeah that's quite different from my view. (I'm also not sure it's exactly Arenson's view, because she thinks any painless non-restorative pleasure is katastematic, e.g., looking at a beautiful sunset. I'm also not sure it's the best… -
Max DuBoff
July 5, 2026 at 3:11 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Yes, it's been a great thread!
Ok, a few responses to your points:
Yes, pleasure for Epicurus is the summum bonum in terms of explaining all actions--everything we do points to pleasure. That part is totally fine, and Cicero is right when he attributes… -
Cassius
July 5, 2026 at 3:05 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostAs to Emily Austin, here's footnote 8 from Chapter 4 of Living For Pleasure
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Max DuBoff
July 5, 2026 at 2:57 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Yes, both "perfect" and "complete" are good translations. Neither is better supported by the Greek. The reason I use "perfect" is because David Sedley understands "complete" in a temporal sense, i.e., as a complete temporally extended life. I think… -
Max DuBoff
July 5, 2026 at 2:50 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Ahh, but Epicurus seems to be saying that a blessed life is attainable, and a blessed life is marked by the absence of pain. He's not merely saying that the absence of pain is a goal that we'll never reach (Men. 135 seems pretty clear on this). So we… -
Max DuBoff
July 5, 2026 at 2:46 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Ahh, no, I disagree, for a pretty simple reason: feeling perpetual joy or delight is quite consistent with having lots of fear and pain. So the pleasure isn't pure/unmixed. (The uses of this term are a little unclear, but it does seem to play a role.)… -
Max DuBoff
July 5, 2026 at 2:42 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Hmm, no, I think there's still a misunderstanding. All pleasure is good, full stop.
When we deliberate (which happens quite frequently, of course), we need to figure out which pleasures to prioritize, and we do so based on the pleasure that makes for… -
Max DuBoff
July 5, 2026 at 2:40 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Here's what the goal means: actively enjoying the absence of pain (that's good in and of itself), and enjoying a variety of other pleasures painlessly. Epicurus thinks that anyone who enjoys tranquility will also be enjoying a variety of other… -
Max DuBoff
July 5, 2026 at 2:35 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Yes, the latter one.
I also hold the view (which I'm sure you'll disagree with) that Epicurus is a value dualist (sensual stimulation and the absence of pain are both good but don't share anything besides that they appear good and we should therefore… -
Max DuBoff
July 5, 2026 at 2:33 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Certainly, I agree it's a rabbit hole (one I spent quite a while going back and forth on as I wrote my dissertation, and which I'll continue to wade into in the future). I don't actually know that Austin supports that position; I'll have to look back… -
Cassius
July 5, 2026 at 2:06 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Thank you! My typing is terrible -
Pacatus
July 5, 2026 at 12:28 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
You meant "not supernatural," yes?
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I get what you’re trying to say here, but aren’t all pleasures (and pains), physical and mental – stimulated by sense experience, αἴσθησῐς? As are πᾰ́θη and even προλήψεις? As are desires?
Pleasure includes… -
wbernys
PostJuly 4, 2026 at 7:38 PM -
Cassius
PostJuly 4, 2026 at 5:30 PM I have a feeling that some are going to say that you might be taking a more "mercenary" or "economic man" approach than is warranted by the big picture of nature. Or that your post undervalues the pleasure that your artist friends have helped inject… -
Raphael Raul
PostJuly 4, 2026 at 4:51 PM Cassius
"Of all this, the beginning and the greatest good is prudence.
Wherefore prudence is a more precious thing even than philosophy;
from it spring all the other virtues…”
Letter to Menoeceus, Bailey’s section 132.
So, Cassius, you ask how many… -
Cassius
PostJuly 4, 2026 at 1:17 PM Also, I don't see any issues with the fact that "friendship" should not be given an absolute definition. This is just the same as "justice,"" which Epicurus holds to be contextual and ultimately rooted in the pleasures and pains of the people involved.
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Don
July 4, 2026 at 11:06 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
LOL Ya think so?
We have to be careful and not conflate pleasures with desires. There are not necessary, natural, and empty pleasures. There are necessary, natural, and empty desires.
Anything that brings pleasure is good, but some pleasures are not… -
Cassius
July 4, 2026 at 10:58 AM Posted the thread Athenian Epicurean Program on Thomas Jefferson And Epicurus.ThreadI just learned about this via Google. I will see what else I can find out. Apparently there was something in late June that I wasn't aware of at all -
https://www.thenationalherald.com/dr-yapijakis-t…y-presentation/
Clicking the registration link gives… -
Cassius
July 4, 2026 at 10:53 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
We're packing a lot into this conversaton already so I'll see about addressing that (whether empty desires are still pleasurable, even though they bring more pain in the end than pleasure) elsewhere rather than start a new line of citations, but your… -
Don
July 4, 2026 at 10:48 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
I'd be careful with that phrasing. Empty desires are still "desirable." Or are you citing a specific text that I forgot? By pleasure he meant all that is pleasurable (yes, maybe that's a tautology), all that gives pleasure and not pain. -
Cassius
PostJuly 4, 2026 at 10:40 AM EDIT: I didn't see Joshua's post before posting this.
The question is an excellent one and I am still thinking about what to write further.
As we see in other discussions that focus on translations, there is considerable peril in looking solely to… -
Cassius
July 4, 2026 at 10:33 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Agreed!
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I agree with your contention, but I also think this is exactly what is in dispute. Neither of these terms have readily-understandable meanings in English beyond "calmness" at best.
The major purpose of EpicureanFriends is to make Epicurean… -
Kalosyni
July 4, 2026 at 9:48 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostI am a little late in joining this discussion, and may or may not say much more.
I object to using the word tranquility for the following reasons:
Translating the ancient Greek concept of ataraxia as strictly "tranquility" is considered somewhat inaccurate… -
Don
July 4, 2026 at 9:36 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostFWIW, here's a post I did on katastematic pleasure, specifically looking at aponia:
RE: Neither "ataraxia" nor "not ataraxia", but "Joy as the goal" -
Don
July 4, 2026 at 9:30 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
By additive, I take it he means more and more can be added, but adding more and more friends doesn't seem to me to be in the same category as eating more and more ice cream. Eating more and more ice cream or wine or fish leads inexorably to pain and… -
Don
July 4, 2026 at 9:24 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
By definition, someone with a tranquil mind is experiencing pleasure. We're also not only minds but bodies. There's no way to have "tranquility" in one's mind without a body, one is a physical sensing being to be tranquil in the first place. While I… -
Cassius
July 4, 2026 at 9:24 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostThanks for the translation comment Don. The PD, on any translation, says that of all the things wisdom prepares or provides toward a blessed life, friendship is by far the greatest. Not a good and useful means among equally-good means — the single… -
Matteng
PostJuly 4, 2026 at 9:17 AM What is often translated as „friendship“ is greek „philia“
Like in the word „philosophy“
It is a kind of love or attitude to others, so has a much broader meaning than having a few friends:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philia -
Don
July 4, 2026 at 9:14 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post -
Cassius
July 4, 2026 at 8:54 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostHere are several specific questions which as I see it call for addressing in order to see the implications of what Max is advocating:- Where is the textual basis for "some goods don't contribute to blessedness"? Is there a passage where Epicurus says a
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Noah Calderon
ThreadJuly 4, 2026 at 4:13 AM I live in a country (Finland) that consistently has very high levels of social trust and trust in government and other institutions. As a result, I do often feel at ease and confident in the future containing the same necessities for happiness that I… -
Don
July 4, 2026 at 12:13 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostMax DuBoff : I want to really emphasize that I greatly appreciate your willingness to engage on these topics. This thread has grown WAY beyond a "Welcome Max DuBoff "
so this has been both intellectually stimulating and fun. Thank you.
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Agreed. I… -
Don
July 3, 2026 at 11:08 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
I personally like something like "complete" to riff on the connotation of "all (pan-) goals (telos) have been met or achieved." There's nothing lacking, which I realize form an English semantic perspective, you could use "perfect." But to me,… -
Godfrey
July 3, 2026 at 9:31 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
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Regarding pantelēs: I'm quite ignorant of the nuances of Greek (not just the nuances, most of it) but I see from Nate Bartman's compilation of PD translations that translations of PD21 are fairly evenly divided by translating it as perfect and… -
Cassius
July 3, 2026 at 4:07 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
I agree withj wbernys here and this is why I would say that once you focus on the logic implications of the foundattional premise that there are only two feelings, it makes perfect sense that the best state is going to be one of pure pleasure… -
wbernys
July 3, 2026 at 3:25 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
This is a great summarization of my views, along with what I believe Epicurus believed.
Someone feeling perpetual joy or delight is not in any way inferior or superior to feeling constant Serenity or Tranquility. Both are equally Pleaseant. Kinetic and… -
Cassius
July 3, 2026 at 12:40 PM Replied to the thread New Advancement on Reading Herculaneum Scrolls.Post -
Don
July 3, 2026 at 12:29 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Epicurus, Letter to Herodotus (DL 10.82; Hicks via Perseus): [82] But mental tranquillity (ataraxia) means being released from all these troubles and cherishing a continual remembrance of the highest and most important truths.
[82] ἡ δὲ… -
Cassius
July 3, 2026 at 11:59 AM Posted the thread World's Worst Epicurus Videos.ThreadSometimes I don't know why but I subscribe to a google alert that gives me new references to Epicurus.
This video just came over that feed. It's not just an example of homogenized pure-AI clickbate. It does have a message, and it perfectly illustrates why… -
Cassius
July 3, 2026 at 11:35 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostHere's another example I just noted from the signature line used by Elli, one of our members from Greece:
Should we tell her that that's not accurate, and that she should change it to:
Beauty and virtue and such are worthy of honor, if they bring …
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