LATEST LUCRETIUS TODAY PODCAST: Episode 333 - Epicurus Disputes The Stoic View Of The Sensations And The Anticipations" | Website Overview | Forum Navigation Map | Latest Blog Post: "The Continuing Vitality of Epicurean Physics"
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TauPhi
May 16, 2026 at 4:58 PM Commented on the image The Nature of Existence is Atoms and Void..Comment (Image/Video)Based on David Sedley's 'Lucretius and the Transformation of Greek Wisdom' (1988), one book of 'On Nature' was equivalent to 80 pages of modern book. That's around 20k words. 'On Nature' in total would be around 3000 pages today. Meaningful fragments of… -
Todd
May 16, 2026 at 4:56 PM Replied to a comment by Raphael Raul on the image The Nature of Existence is Atoms and Void..Reply (Image/Video) -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 4:31 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.Post[…]
I would concur with this analysis, with emphasis added. -
Todd
May 16, 2026 at 4:15 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.Post[…]
We are coming at this from different perspectives.
You seem to be looking at this (psychological hedonism) as an argument for pursuing pleasure consciously. I agree that it is not a great tool for that because it tends to make people dig in their… -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 3:58 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.Post[…]
That seems a little milquetoast. It's true, but Pleasure Is The Goal/End/Telos seems to be fundamental truth in how nature works.
I'm not advocating for arguing with blue-faced people about their motivations. If they desire to live in anger, fear, and… -
Raphael Raul
May 16, 2026 at 3:56 PM Commented on the image The Nature of Existence is Atoms and Void..Comment (Image/Video)Here is an illustration using a segment of a painting of mine that depicts the statement, "The Nature of Existence is Atoms and Void," a citation from Plutarch, taken from either of two lost texts of Epicurus: "On Nature" or "On atoms and the Void."… -
Cassius
PostMay 16, 2026 at 3:53 PM The psychological hedonism discussion quickly began to overwhelm the original theme of this thread, so I moved that to the existing recent thread below. Let's continue "psychological hedonism" there and the the prolepsis issues here.
Do you believe in… -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 3:47 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.Post[…]
This is the bedrock foundation of what it means for "Pleasure is the Goal." Pleasure is THE motivating factor behind all decisions, choices, actions. The goal of Epicurean philosophy is to follow the Goal of Nature wisely and not haphazardly or to… -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 3:44 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.Post[…]
[…]
If someone is willing to lie to themselves, what purpose does it serve to engage with them?
Is this not just a kind of pointless "psychologizing" that leads nowhere?
People can be mistaken. People can lie to themselves. Is it not enough simply to… -
Todd
May 16, 2026 at 3:33 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.Post[…]
Also, I wouldn't argue with people about this, especially if they are prone to getting blue in the face. Questioning someone's self-image or motivations is unlikely to go well.
Mainly I see it as a useful tool for understanding other people's actions. … -
Raphael Raul
May 16, 2026 at 3:33 PM Uploaded the image The Nature of Existence is Atoms and Void..Image/Video
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Todd
May 16, 2026 at 3:28 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.Post[…]
Q: Why do you want to do the right thing?
A1: For it's own sake (translation: believing that I did "the right thing" will give me more pleasure than believing I did the wrong thing).
A2: Heaven/hell (obvious) -
DaveT
May 16, 2026 at 3:26 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.Post[…]
Please clarify what it is when you said this is where you lose the trail of "why this is a productive theory or productive position to take." -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 3:08 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.Post[…]
I see your logic in that, but this is where I lose the trail of why this is a productive theory to pursue or position to take. -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 2:59 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.Post[…]
I would say they're lying to themselves because they despise the idea of pleasure. -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 2:58 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.Post[…]
What about those who would argue til they are blue in the face that that do what they do "Because they believe it's the right thing to do, regardless of whether it gives me pleasure or not, and I know that often it won't." -
Todd
May 16, 2026 at 2:51 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.Post[…]
If you're asking what I personally believe, then I agree with psychological hedonism.
To avoid misunderstanding, I would add that many (most?) people don't really pursue pleasure in a conscious way. They tell themselves they are pursuing something more… -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 2:50 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.Post[…]
I would have to dig in, but my first gut response is him stating pleasure is the telos, the goal, the summum bonum, the "that" to which everything points in the end. Not sometimes. Not should. Not in certain circumstances. You dig and question… -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 2:34 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.PostYes I was thinking of exactly that from Torquatus is what I would cite myself. But I am not at all sure that is what is meant.
Todd what is your view on the psychological hedonism question? My own views are not set in stone on this. -
Todd
May 16, 2026 at 2:28 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.Post[…]
Cicero seems to interpret the Epicureans as saying that (FWIW):
[…] -
Cassius
PostMay 16, 2026 at 2:24 PM […]
OK now I see what you are saying for sure - that clarifies it.
I'm going to have to think about this before responding further. I'm definitely under the influence of recent reading in Academic Questions.
The point i want to reflect about is this: As… -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 2:18 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.Post[…]
That would be what I understand is meant by "psychological hedonism," but what statement of Epicurus would you cite to support your belief that he would say that? -
Todd
May 16, 2026 at 12:53 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.Post[…]
The issue is pursuing pain as a means to greater pleasure vs pursuing pain as the telos.
I don't think there can be any disagreement that we can and do pursue pain as a means.
I'm not sure what Epicurus thought, but I think I agree with Don that no one… -
Todd
PostMay 16, 2026 at 12:35 PM […]
To elaborate a bit more (still following DeWitt here)...
Thetwo most well-knownonly positive examples of anticipations from Epicurus himself are justice and the gods. Do we get a prolepsis of justice from repeatedly seeing examples of it (maybe… -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 12:31 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.Post[…]
I would agree that Epicurus says we can "consciously choose to pursue pain" but I don't necessarily agree about why someone would "consciously" do it. If someone is deliberately, "consciously" going to inflict pain on themselves or others, they're… -
Don
PostMay 16, 2026 at 12:19 PM My possibly idiosyncratic position on Epicurean prolepsis, filtered through possibly a modern lens, is that prolepsis is the faculty that allows us to make sense of the ever-flowing flood of sense perceptions coming into our physical and mental senses.… -
Todd
May 16, 2026 at 12:15 PM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.Post[…]
Not in fact. Only in expectation.
And I would say any classification of specific desires has to be taken as more or less of a generalization that (even in expectation) might differ for different people and in different circumstances. -
Todd
PostMay 16, 2026 at 12:10 PM […]
This is the thing that jumps out at me.
To summarize my understanding of DeWitt, the anticipations must anticipate something. That something can only be experience. To say that they result from past experience removes them as an independent criterion. -
Cassius
PostMay 16, 2026 at 12:03 PM To add more there the recent podcast episodes on Academic Questions Book 2 are causing me to focus for maybe the first time on this kataleptic impression issue. So if I am reading all this correctly the Stoics seem to have made that the centerpiece of… -
Don
PostMay 16, 2026 at 12:01 PM […]
Agreed, but I believe Epicurus thought that the mind/soul could receive images/eidolon directly as a sense like taste, touch, etc. Reason then have meaning to those perceived images. That's why, according to Epicurus, we can have a prolepsis of… -
Cassius
PostMay 16, 2026 at 11:51 AM […]
Well that's the three-criteria vs four-criteria debate as I see it, and I'm still firmly with DeWitt in the three camp on that. In fact given my new reading on the stoic view of kataleptic impressions i am more firmly with Dewitt on that than ever.
… -
Don
PostMay 16, 2026 at 11:46 AM […]
Doesn't Epicurus also include grasping concepts with the mind as a sense, too? -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 11:43 AM Replied to the thread Do you believe in psychological hedonism/egoism? Any philosophers on this?.PostI just see that I missed post #13 from Todd earlier..... seeing it now.
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did you mean to include "should" there, as "should ultimately end up as..." Otherwise we get back into the "psychological hedonism" word play again, and I don't agree that… -
Cassius
PostMay 16, 2026 at 11:37 AM Good to hear from you and I really appreciate your drilling down on the specifics:
If you ask that then it's possible I need to revise that because I didn't really mean to break any new ground from my prior posts.
I recognized while writing that that I was… -
Todd
PostMay 16, 2026 at 10:46 AM I've noticed in this article, and at least one of your previous ones, you (or the AI) are treating *prolepsis* as preconceptions, following DL, and contra DeWitt.
I assume you must have seen this and chosen to let it stand. Have you changed your views on… -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 10:39 AM Replied to the thread New Epicurean Substack: Untroubled.Post[…]
Agreed. Well stated. -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 10:23 AM Replied to the thread New Epicurean Substack: Untroubled.Post[…]
I don't know whether I'd say I'm encamped. That sounds like I'm queueing up for battle. But yeah that appears to be my current (checks watch) perspective.
[…]
As aligned with the natural goal of seeking pleasure. The way you stated it seems more of a… -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 10:18 AM Replied to the thread New Epicurean Substack: Untroubled.Post[…]
Ok well now if I understand you that, that would be to consider nature as "aligned with the goal of nature" and NOT "inborn with us at birth." Presumably there could be something destructive inborn in us at birth that is NOT aligned with the goal of… -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 10:16 AM Posted the thread Sunday May 17, 2026 - Zoom Discussion 12:30 PM EST - Lucretius Book 1 - 483.Thread -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 10:14 AM Replied to the thread New Epicurean Substack: Untroubled.Post[…]
As is my wont, let's consult LSJ: The word Epicurus uses is φυσικός (physikos) "natural, produced or caused by nature, inborn, native; of or concerning the order of external nature, natural, physical." So, I take that to mean a desire which is… -
Griffin
May 16, 2026 at 10:12 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Griffin!.PostThanks everyone. I'm looking forward to the conversations. -
Todd
May 16, 2026 at 10:10 AM Replied to the thread New Epicurean Substack: Untroubled.PostI think there is a simple answer to the meaning of natural/unnatural. It refers to the criterion provided by nature: the feelings.
A natural desire is one that is likely to result in net pleasure if fulfilled.
An unnatural desire is one that we only… -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 10:10 AM Posted the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.ThreadWelcome to Episode 334 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the… -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 10:09 AM Replied to the thread New Epicurean Substack: Untroubled.Post[…]
Yes I very much agree that this needs deep analysis. -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 10:00 AM Replied to the thread New Epicurean Substack: Untroubled.Post[…]
Actually my yes was responding to "something about the way we pursue it" -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 9:42 AM Replied to the thread New Epicurean Substack: Untroubled.PostGood questions, Cassius . I'll circle back to those. However, I think we need to acknowledge that Epicurus didn't use natural and unnatural all the time. In the Menoikeus, he wrote:
[…]
Not natural and unnatural, but natural, "empty," and necessary. He… -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 9:00 AM Replied to the thread New Epicurean Substack: Untroubled.PostOk there Don you're addressing the full categorization scheme by referencing necessary/unnecessary.
What if we focus precisely on one of the aspects of what wbernys said:
Can something that is a "natural desire" turn into an unnatural desire?
I think a lot… -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 6:16 AM Replied to the thread New Epicurean Substack: Untroubled.Post[…]
Yes. (Added: something about the way we pursue it to clarify a question noted by Cassius below)
Maybe it's specificity. The desire for food and drink is natural and necessary and leads to pleasure. The desire for occasional variety or novelty in… -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 6:09 AM Replied to the thread Should the Study of Modern Psychology and Positive Psychology be Encouraged?.PostI was curious to check what I've thought in the past on this topic. Here are some selections:
Positive psychology article of the science of gratitude Ologies episode on Eudemonology RE: Episode One Hundred Thirty-Nine - The Letter to Menoeceus 06 - … -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 6:04 AM Replied to the thread New Epicurean Substack: Untroubled.Post[…]
Depending on how many further responses we get on this I may move Wbernys' comments and responses on this topic to a separate thread given that it seems to regularly be of interest.
Especially the second sentence I underlined:
Can a natural desire turn…
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