Posts by Patrikios

Quote from Rolf

Why is this? If the absence of pain is pleasurable, then shouldn't the absence of pleasure be painful, by necessity? When pleasure simply fades away, what are we left with if not pain?

Quote from Cassius

We can and should through reason and logic affirmatively identify the healthy normal functioning of the mind and body (even when they are not being "stimulated") as pleasure.

Rolf , I too had a hard time understanding that Epicurus did not allow for a neutral third state; only pleasure or pain. What I have come to learn from all these Epicurean writings is that if there is no pain (body aches or mental anxiety), there is always pleasure present. You just have to tune your mind in to the small pleasures that your body is experiencing when it is just operating normally. This is also what has been described as your body operating in homeostasis, or in eustatheia (psychosomatic balance).

When sitting, standing, or walking in a neutral state, your mind can find many pleasures, just by tuning into your body's senses. The practice of "being present" is a good way to acknowledge natural pleasures; feel a soft breeze, hear a bird signing, see a beautiful photo.

Quote from Robert

Secondly, I was reading Voula Tsouna's chapter on Epicurean "therapies" (in her book on the ethics of Philodemus), which got me thinking about how we might view Epicureanism as a set of practices, as opposed to (simply) a set of views.

@Eikadistes, I'm reminded of this distinction when you write that Epicurean teachings aren't "passing curiosities" but "practical guidance so we can confidently respond to the obstacles that characterize daily life." Also, your comments on memorization/recitation dovetail with what I just read in Sorabji's chapter (in Emotion and Peace of Mind) on Hellenistic spiritual exercises, as well as Hadot's discussion of same (in Philosophy as a Way of Life). Both authors point to memorization as a characteristic Epicurean practice.

Robert , have you read Voula Tsouna's paper on epibole, where she talks about the process of how we should study and pay attention to the words and meanings of Epicurus writings.

https://www.bsa.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Tsouna_310321_ABSTRACT-HANDOUT.pdf

In her paper on prolepsis, she emphasizes the role of mental focus in learning Epicurean concepts.

“For what I label the Lockean view typically involves the idea that preconceptions are formed passively, without any movement of thought, whereas what I call the Kantian view is accompanied by the contention that epibolē, a mental focusing, is an integral component of the formation of basic concepts.”

Epicurean Preconceptions

This paper provides a comprehensive study of the Epicurean theory of 'preconception'. It addresses what a preconception is; how our preconception of…

www.academia.edu

I find that understanding these concepts of prolepsis and epibole are key to better understanding how to integrate the simple, but powerful, practices of living prudently, pleasurably, and pleasantly.

Quote from Cassius

Thank you Don for that. The title looks promising.

One would like to think (since we admire Epicurus' thinking on his subject) that others would be logically drawn to the same conclusion, whether or not they have ever heard of Epicurus. So it shouldn't be surprising for us to find people who agree without mentioning Epicurus. I hope we will find that she has an affinity for Epicurus, but the disappointing thing in life is that so few seem willing to say what she seems willing to say.

It appears from this interview with Hossenfelder, that she does read philosophy. Might be interesting to just ask her about her views on Epicurus focus on natural science.

Horgan: Do you find philosophy useful?

Hossenfelder: Sometimes. I find philosophy useful to understand what it is that we really do in science, or at least the different ways to think about it. I would classify myself as an instrumentalist, but not all my colleagues are. And it’s good to know what their attitude is because it helps me put their motivations and interests into context.

Quote from Kalosyni

I'm pondering this question today (again)...of which there are two sides...1) "what would make me Epicurean"

Kalosyni , thank you for this simple question.

First, I don’t think of being an “Epicurean” as a noun, a label. Rather, I see being a Friend of Epicurus as a life-long process of learning, applying, and re-learning the basic principles taught by Epicurus. I have learned to reject the use of labels to categorize myself (or others), as I could never live up to the expectations of others who applied specific criteria to their label more vigorously.

For me, the key qualities that outline my Epicurean journey include:
- Pursuing rational pleasure while avoiding excess
- Valuing friendship and community
- Embracing natural explanations over supernatural ones
- Seeking tranquility (ataraxia) as a highest good
- Practicing practical wisdom (phronesis) in daily life

Through the help of contributors on this website, I gain a better understanding of how to implement an Epicurean philosophical practice that leads to a life of wellbeing (eudaimonia). 😊

Quote from Rolf

The way I understand the quote, there is a lot in between - I take it to mean that there are people who can experience pleasure, but lack the “physical constitution” to be truly wise and prudent due to circumstances outside of their control. There are many people with chronic physical or mental illnesses that can be mitigated but not removed - would Epicurus say that these people lack the “physical constitution” to be wise?

As I see it, Epicureanism still offers valuable guidance for everyone, even if the highest levels of wisdom might be harder to achieve in certain circumstances.

Consider these points:
1. Everyone can work towards reducing unnecessary fears and anxieties
2. Basic Epicurean principles about friendship and simple pleasures are universally accessible
3. The pursuit of wisdom exists on a spectrum, not as an all-or-nothing proposition

Does this seem meaningful?

Quote from Kalosyni

start a half hour early and run from 7:30pm ET till 9pm ET.

This cuts into dinner time and PBS Newshour time for some

Quote from Don

Thinking out loud (fully realizing I just said no letters )

Φ or Φ - Greek phi

= Philosophy
Two stylized Ps back to back = Pleasure and Pain

If the Epicurean philosophy is about choice of Pleasure or Pain, then

Pleasure/Pain = Φ/Φ

Quote from Cassius

As I read Kalosyni, she is objecting to Lucretius listing these character traits as undesirable "in general" because she thinks that sounds too much like a Stoic.

Lucretius could also be considering the implications of PD-5:

“It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and honorably and justly, and it is impossible to live wisely and honorably and justly without living pleasantly.”

The list of vices could be examples of acts that would not be considered wise, honorable, or just in most situations. I found PD-5 to be a good way of prudently making choices that require what DeWitt referred to as “calculus of pleasure”.

Thanks, Kalosyni for this interesting question.

In this Episode 277, Cicero appears to make wild leaps, that just by contemplating the beauty of nature, we are supposed to conclude all these supernatural attributions accrue to a manipulative, punitive, personified deity.

“Thus, though you see not the soul of man, as you see not the Deity, yet, as by the contemplation of his works you are led to acknowledge a God, so you must own the divine power of the soul, from its remembering things, from its invention, from the quickness of its motion, and from all the beauty of virtue. Where, then, is it seated, you will say?”

From reading DeWitt, and Epicurus’ letters, it appears that Epicurus was describing the ‘soul’ as what we know today as our nervous system. Our nervous system includes the brain and nerve cells that run throughout our body carrying both thought-initiated commands to move certain muscles, as well as carrying the signals from our 5 senses.

“Of the Twelve Principles the most important was the third: "The universe consists of atoms and void." Since the void is incapable either of delivering or receiving a stimulus, it followed that the soul, which is capable both of stimulating and being stimulated, must be corporeal by nature, composed of atoms.” [DeWitt: Epicurus & His Philosophy, p6]

Quote from Rolf

Likewise, “absence of pain” and “pleasure” mean the same thing (considering only pleasure and pain exist), but the negative form, “absence of pain”, implies the highest degree of pleasure.

Rolf , thanks for this thoughtful perspective. I understand the “spotless” analogy.

I’m wondering whether “absence of pain”, implies the highest degree of pleasure fits for all persons. Couldn’t the “absence of pain” lead one to simply be in a relaxed, neutral state; with highest degree of pleasure coming from a favorite kinetic pleasure?

I may be missing something in the way you described the analogy.

As was mentioned in section XXIV, is the topic of learning vs recollection discussed elsewhere within this forum?

“From whence Socrates would infer, that learning is nothing more than recollection; and this topic he explains more accurately, in the discourse which he held the very day he died; for he there asserts that any one who seeming to be entirely illiterate, is yet able to answer a question well that is proposed to him, does in so doing manifestly show that he is not learning it then, but recollecting it by his memory.”

Quote from Pimagus

I am a retired surgeon with a masters in counseling psychology.

Welcome, Pimagus,

With your medical and psychological background, you may be interested in reading some of the articles written by Dr. Christos Yapijakis, medical professor in Athens Greece. I found his focus on ‘balance’ and ‘stability’ (eustatheia) is what I know as homeostasis; something I’ve been working to achieve on a daily basis. 😊🤩

Here are links to a couple of his writings, translated into English.

Ethical teachings of Epicurus based on human nature in the light of Biological Psychology

https://www.epicuros.gr/arthra/23_filo.pdf

Epicurean Stability (eustatheia): A Philosophical Approach of Stress Management

C. Yapijakis & G. P. Chrousos
https://societyofepicurus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Yapijakis-Chrousos_Epicurean-Eustatheia.pdf

Enjoy,

Patrikios

Quote from Cassius

Most of the time in an Epicurean vs Non-Epicurean discussion, the issue comes down to the fact that Epicureans say that Nature through the faculty of pleasure and pain is the proper standard to which to look on how to live, and the non-Epicureans are saying "Supernaturalism or logic of virtue is the proper standard too look to on how to live." And the debate btweeen those two standards is important tto address directly.

In my everyday conversations with family and friends who are practicing Christians, another key topic to consider is the ‘telos’ of our respective lives. When I explain that a life of wellbeing (eudaemonia) is what the Epicurean philosophy leads to, using prudent reasoning of the pleasure-pain choices (vs public perception of unchecked hedonism); that seems to open a less confrontational dialogue. Then we can get into proper positioning of PD-5 about “living wisely, honorably, and justly“ in order to live pleasantly. There can often be more agreement around that approach, before getting into the more controversial details around afterlife vs death’s finality.

Thanks for this enlightening discussion that helps us in explaining our philosophy and how we practice this in our daily lives!🙏

Quote from Bryan

We know the soul is composed of subtle atoms in our body -- and we have the ability to control the movement of those atoms.

I thought that Epicurus used “soul” to refer to that which conveyed our thoughts to our body, muscles; which we know today as our nervous system. So, are our spiritual feelings innate Prolepsis of the gods, or just higher aspects our nervous system that we can attempt to control through breath work.

If my understanding of Epicurus view of the soul is incorrect, please explain.

Quote from Cassius

of course most of us are lucky today that the play generally doesn't get that bad.

and having Friends with their encouragement helps to keep us in Life’s theater.

Quote from AxA

In the Youtube video player, first click the "CC" icon to enable captions.

My YouTube player shows "Subtitles/closed captions unavailable".

Hopefully, the subtitles will show up in the completed videos (after the symposium).

Quote from AxA

set them to translate directly

thanks for the suggestion. If there is any explanation to get YouTube to translate directly, let us know.

Using the 2-device methos with Google Translate helped to get a sense of the presentations today.

Quote from Al-Hakiim von Grof

To me, this is the spirit of “the simple life”; avoidance of that which one finds excessively laborious. The simple life is one in which prudent planning ensures your needs are met, your health of mind and body is maintained, and pleasures abound, all with only exactly as much effort as is required and no more.

Al-Hakiim von Grof RE: "a laborious life was inconsistent with the perfect bliss of the gods"

Thanks for that clarification to avoid "excessively laborious" actions. Certainly, we should labor to meet the simple daily needs for ourselves and our family. We can find pleasure in laborious tasks that build something beautiful that gives ongoing pleasure to us or to friends and families, or local community. I fully agree with your definition of "the simple life". For me that definition of "the simple life", is one where these "simple" actions or avoidance of actions leads to a balanced/stable & fulfilling life (eustatheia & eudaimonia).

Quote from Eikadistes

I just wanted to take a minute and thank Cassius for hosting this site, and to the admins for maintaining it. I have completely removed myself from Meta and several other social media sites that now seem to me to be instruments of politics.

It is heartening to find this harbor in the storm of digital intercourse.

I too wish to thank Cassius and the many other guides on the podcasts and this website. On this Twentieth celebration that coincide with 2 other occasions this year in the USA (MLK Day, Presidential Inauguration), I plan to listen to older podcasts from Lucretius Today. These podcasts and the supporting commentary on this website helps to give us the emotional strength to see the truth through nature. I expect to gain more knowledge and truths from these words on EpicureanFriends, than all the political opinions on social media and news platforms today.

Peace & Safety

Quote from m.repetzki

I've been interested in Lucretius' poem for nearly thirty years now. At college, I had the pleasure to attend a fascinating lecture on the history of science, which stressed the importance of Epicurus' philosophy.

Welcome m.repetzki.

So good that you were introduced to Lucretius & Epicurean philosophy early in your life, now with 30 years of practice ! 👍

Since these bards of happiness only came to me recently after retirement, my intense studies of the whole Epicurean philosophy makes me feel like I’m back in college. This involves studying multiple translations of original manuscripts, along with learned authors in philosophy and science across centuries. Then, because of Epicurus Physics, I’m having to study quantum physics, and the metaphysics of healing, based on what Epicurus predicted and physicists are discovering how. But this website is a great place to learn and practice at your own pace.

Of course, with the college analogy, this Epicurean Friends website is like the campus library where other smart students hang out. We have regular weekly study groups, and monthly socials where everyone shares ideas in a friendly, supportive manner. The Lucretius Today podcast host guest lectures too.

Learning from others is my ‘simple pleasure’ every day!

Patrikios

“Let no one when young delay to study philosophy, nor when he is old grow weary of his study. For no one can come too early or too late to secure the health of his soul.Let no one when young delay to study philosophy, nor when he is old grow weary of his study. For no one can come too early or too late to secure the health of his soul.” [Letter to Menoeceus]