Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Cassius

As usual I think we're basically at the same position. The interesting point that we can file away for the future is the extent to which illustrations like this are helpful in the "teaching" aspect of Epicurean philosophy. For the same reason that we discussed it we probably do need good examples of the point that only "pleasure" itself is ALWAYS a desirable feeling (because our nature presents itself to us that way.

That means everything else (even the **choice** to pursue a particular pleasure at a particular moment) has to be evaluated contextually.

And I don't think we are just playing with words. I think the clear articulation of these issues has to come before we can clearly understand it or express the point to others.

Cassius, I think you are opening it up to a wider vision which takes in account all of human history. If we come back to our present modern time, we now have democracy and it's accompanying military system. The common person doesn't consider these kinds of questions. As you have brought all this up, I find it to be helpful in that is has me thinking in a broader scope.

Generally I don't think much on the ethics of these issues, war, etc, etc. (I do often find that I feel a certain resistence to the very topic of "war"). And also, thank you Marco for bringing up this topic and posting the podcast.

For me, my main focus here on the forum is for simple choices in life. The Epicurean philosophy presents a way of paying attention to pleasure, and making enjoyment of life a meaningful and worthy focus -- because we believe that we have just this life and no after-life or reincarnation.

For myself, I still need to spend more time with "unpacking" words and ideas dealing with "pleasure", "enjoyment", "happiness", "joy", especially because now our current modern cultural understanding of the word "pleasure" is very narrow. It think it will also continue to be an issue for others as well.

Quote from Godfrey

Have we ever pinned down concrete definitions of happiness, joy and pleasure?

I think it would be a good idea to have definitions.

For now I see that this thread is causing me to think about the meaning of the word "pleasure" and how I understand it.

The "pleasure of relief" in my mind is not pleasure - it is just relief.

Pleasure is for bodily sensations.

Enjoyment is for mental sensations.

My mind is too tired tonight, and I want to come back to this tomorrow, because this thread brings up issues that I think are of primary importance.

Quote from Cassius

And in other cases happiness and joy can be the product of war, if under the circumstances war is necessary to obtain or preserve the peace.

Something about this statement doesn't sit with me well. But maybe it is right up there with: humans kill animals for food and eating them gives us life. The level of abstraction has missing pieces. It may take me several more days to ponder this.

Quote from Marco

Can you seek happiness and be full of joy when there is a war in Europe?

I have still been pondering this question. Also, because it applies to anything in life, as Cassius wrote: "Can you seek happiness and be full of joy when there is XXXX?"

Being that I live in the US, it feels like the war in Europe is very far away, and I do not personally know anyone affected by it. There have been many wars all through history, and also civil wars and coups in some places in third-world countries (which get much less attention).

Early on, my initial first reaction about what was happening in Ukraine was that I had to readjust my idea (my mental concept) of "world stability" - so observing this happen, the human mind has a way of evaluating the safety of the present moment and the anticipated future. If we feel safe then we can much more easily seek happiness. If we can trust that the world will still be safe then we can relax again.

For people who are directly affected by or living in areas of unrest, it would make more sense to be somber and pay attention, to what is happening, to stay alive. So in some sense happiness and joy are a product of peace. It would not be safe to spend too much time "seeking happiness" in an unsafe environment.

So now why are there those who are living in peace and safety unhappy?

Maybe they worry about war in an abstract sense, or they feel that any suffering in the world should not happen (the above podcast briefly brings up this idea).

There are also other things in life to worry about: one's own financial stabilty, job stability, or family stability. I think that is why it is important to work through one's personal issues with regard to worries in life. For without a sense of having one's basic needs met, it will be difficult to seek happiness.

The idea of "seeking happiness" also is something to investigate. In the podcast Wes Cecil says that we have a kind of "innate joy" or "native joy" that we can tape into. He gives the example of this joy with the image of two dogs playing and chasing each other - they are completely happy in their play. Also it is just paying attention to the good things in life, and the sweet things in life. So "seeking happiness" / "seeking joy" is easy to do -- provided that one's life is stable.

Seeing this photo gives me an idea that we could sell hoodies and t-shirts which say "EpicureanFriends.com" on the back side, and maybe it could have this logo I just made on the front --

-- and could also make with blue lettering instead of pink.

I found this podcast to be very good. He says: that if you are feeling pain of some kind then it will be difficult to feel joy (defined as your "native vitality") -- and this why Epicurus recommended the removal of pain. Very good points given with regard to Epicureanism. Also he said something along the lines: if you enjoy drinking, then drink as much as you want, but you really don't want to give yourself a hang-over. And other interesting points about why our culture looks down on the feeling of joy, while exulting hard work and stress in life.

Logistics for joining the upcoming May 18th Open Invitation Epicurean Zoom Meeting

This is an open meeting and we encourage new people to join us!

The Zoom meeting has a waiting room, and we will be admitting people into the Zoom meeting based on the following:

1) forum member names we recognize from previous Zoom meetings

2) first time attendees who are forum members and who have "registered" by messaging Cassius beforehand with your intended Zoom name.

3) first time attendees who have registered through Eventbrite (people from Facebook or anyone else who is not a forum member) -- https://www.eventbrite.com/e/epicurean-op…ts-335486799047

If you are a forum member you do not need to use Eventbrite, but please message Cassius beforehand with your Zoom name.

The Zoom link for the meeting is posted in our calendar -- clear here to go to the calendar page for this event.

Quote from Don

"Pleasure is not a four letter word"

Then it must be a three letter word!

Quote from Cassius

Maybe the biggest issue is that the nature of the world is that people thrive best in groups for protection and for happiness, and the need for that is at least as much today as in the ancient world.

Yes, this is especially important for people who are self-employed and/or live alone.

And also the most enjoyable time we have with others is with those with like-minded attitudes -- as possibly a greater likelihood of giving and receiving genuine empathy and encouragement.

Also, there is Covid, which has changed things, and there are less in-person meetings/events. I notice when I click on websites to see what is happening, and there are a certain number of businesses or events that haven't yet gotten back up and running again. And I see in the news that cases are going up again. In my own family several people dealing with a persistent cough. Hopefully it is all much more mild, and stays mild and easily recoverable.

Quote from Don

like church attendance at Bible Study and Youth Group and Fellowship Meeting and Wednesday Service

But I think as Epicureans -- there is no "guilting" for not attending -- we know that what ever we do is chosen for the fun and enjoyment of it. So there is never any obligation to do anything.

I still say we need an "Epicurean Happy Hour" meeting -- or an "Epicurean Fun Hour" -- maybe I will decide to start one up in the future.

Yes it was a good meeting!

I think we might need to decide on a maximum number of people, because having a fun interactive discussion will work best with, maybe, no more than 13 people (that means the facilitator plus 12 more = 13).

Not a problem, thanks for letting us know, I'll let Cassius know in case he hasn't seen this message yet.

reneliza Thank you for letting us know, and hope your schedule turns out favorable, as we look forward to meeting you

Hi Everyone,

Here are some important logistics for tonight's Zoom:

We will be admitting people into the Zoom meeting based on the following:

1) forum names we recognize from previous Zoom meetings

2) those who have registered from Eventbrite (people from Facebook or non-forum members)

3) or forum members who have "registered" by messaging Cassius beforehand with your intended Zoom name.

If you are a forum member you do not need to use Eventbrite, but please message Cassius beforehand with your Zoom name.

The Zoom link for the meeting is posted in our calendar:

epicureanfriends.com/wcf/calendar/event/1693/

Tonight we will begin with Principle Doctrine 1, if you are interested in reading various translations, check out Nate's compilation:

File

KURIAI DOXAI, a Compilation of Translations by Nathan H. Bartman (2021)

This compilation contains 150 years worth of English translations of the "Key Doctrines" of Epicurus.

Eikadistes

May 3, 2024 at 11:14 PM

Looking forward to seeing you tonight!

isychos, Thank you for letting us know

Hi Everyone,

Our new hour long Zoom event "Open Invitation Epicurean Zoom" is starting this Wednesday 8:30pm! Please let us know by responding in this thread or in a private message to either me or Cassius if you would like to attend.

We are calling it "Open Invitation" -- as we are also opening it up to folks on Facebook (using Eventbrite for registration for Facebook members).

This is what we will be doing:

Format:

(1) Welcome: We'll go "around the table" and let each participant identify themselves as they wish, hopefully including a reference to their background and level of interest in Epicurus.

(2) Thought For The Week: Each week we will take one of the Principal Doctrines (and when we finish those, proceed to the Vatican List of Sayings) and we will have someone read the saying followed by commentary by a couple of our regulars to set the stage for further discussion. We'll then open the floor to comments by other participants (using the "raise hand" method and/or the text chat to raise an issue). We'll continue that discussion for as long as it goes but plan to cut that off around the 40 minute mark.

(3) Special Event: At the forty-minute mark we will shift to the special focus of the week, and this week will be:

Living As An Epicurean in the Modern World - food/cooking, nature/gardening, movies/music, or other hobbies as these relate to creating pleasurable living.

(4) Closing Wrap-Up - The Program coordinators will thank those who have participated and make concluding comments about what has been discussed, and what we can expect for next week (each week will have a different focus, and how people can communicate and coordinate their study of Epicurean philosophy in the meantime.

So we carry on, and this quote from the "Epicurean Mission and Membership" which Cassius provide above:

Quote

...the Epicureans were not a community of evangelists or missionaries. The realization that the Epicureans had a strong aversion to the open propagation of philosophy also needs to be informing and pulling upon our understanding. This concern is probably best demonstrated by Epicurus’ frequent refrains on the crowd’s inability to respond correctly to philosophical truths, and his belief on the futility of trying to structure a message to appeal to a mass audience.

So we need to consider that what we have to offer for learning opportunities should be geared for people who seek us out. Yet it is a kind of "catch 22" because we need to tell people about it, since Epicureanism is not know the way it was back in ancient times.

So now in modern times we really do need to "be missionaries", otherwise nobody will even know what Epicureanism is.

I now see that Cassius wrote a long reply to the Wilson article, on FB, and here it is:

Quote

Catherine Wilson continues to be one of the better writers on Epicurus today. Who could disagree with the title of her article? Aside from her willingness to accept the church fathers and Plato as "greats" I agree there is a lot of good material in this. However I'd like to talk about these two paragraphs:

"Epicurus made it clear from the start that he did not advocate the direct pursuit of personal pleasure in the forms of gluttony, indiscriminate sex or overconsumption of intoxicating substances. This was foolish, as it ultimately produces pain. Real pleasure arises from judicious – though not overly fussy – “choice and avoidance”, and avoidance is as important as choice.

Epicurean ethics reduces to a few simple principles: avoid harming others and live so that others have no motive to harm you. Form agreements with them for mutual aid and protection. The greatest good for a human being, Epicurus thought, is friendship – pleasure in the presence of another individual, and the security of knowing that help will be given if ever it is needed."

My response:

(1) Epicurus did endorse the pursuit of food, sex, and other pleasures, but not (as she correctly observes) to the point of gluttony which ultimately produces more pain than pleasure. But to talk about "real pleasure" is something else: I would submit that Epicurus clearly says that "all pleasures are desirable" and there is really no such thing as a "false pleasure" --- if you want to talk about pleasures to be avoided, the point is that some pleasures produce more pain than pleasure in the end, when summed all together.

(2) I have even more concern about saying that "Epicurean Ethics reduces to a few simple principles" wherein those she lists a series of things in which pleasure is almost an afterthought. As she often does, Catherine Wilson is playing to current social norms and attempting to justify in modern terms. The goal of Epicurus is unwavering: pleasure for yourself and those who are your friends. Yes, a good way to do that is to live justly and honorably, but that is not the goal - the goal is the pleasure. Even less well stated is the statement that "the greatest good for a human being is 'friendship." Epicurus is very emphatic in defining the greatest good in philosophic terms as pleasure -- and Wilson is mixing the means and the ends in saying that he held the greatest good to be friendship. Epicurus clearly stated that of all the things that the wise man will seek in order to procure a life of pleasure, the greatest is friendship. That makes friendship, like virtue itself, a tool toward pleasure, and not the end in itself. Wilson is no doubt well aware of this, but not content to point out that Epicurus said that one would die for a friend, or be as hurt at the torture of a friend as when tortured himself, she mixes the end and the means so as to appeal to a wider audience.

Time for the reminder from Diogenes of Oinoanda, who perhaps one day will have shouted loud enough for even Ms. Wilson to hear:

Fr. 32

If, gentlemen, the point at issue between these people and us involved inquiry into «what is the means of happiness?» and they wanted to say «the virtues» (which would actually be true), it would be unnecessary to take any other step than to agree with them about this, without more ado. But since, as I say, the issue is not «what is the means of happiness?» but «what is happiness and what is the ultimate goal of our nature?», I say both now and always, shouting out loudly to all Greeks and non-Greeks, that pleasure is the end of the best mode of life, while the virtues, which are inopportunely messed about by these people (being transferred from the place of the means to that of the end), are in no way an end, but the means to the end. Let us therefore now state that this is true, making it our starting-point.

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Here is a fairly recent quick easy read, by Catherine Wilson. Which I noticed was posted on the FB group. It does a good job of highlighting key aspects, and very much recommend this if you haven't already read it. The points contained would be very good to share with those who are new to Epicureanism, and also to keep in mind as to why we "Keep Calm, and Carry On" with Epicureanism.

Quote from Don

My impression was that Stoicism as a research focus is probably more "popular" within academic research whereas Epicurean studies are more niche.

Possibly due to the lack of Epicurean source material, would guess.