Sharing a common worldview could be an important compatibility factor in maintaining a happy romantic relationship. This might explain why some couples divorce after the children are grown and move out of the house.

Now thinking...if one person holds an "Epicurean" worldview and the other does not, the relationship could still function but might not be as deep or connected. The drives and choices one makes come from one's worldview. Also, both short-term and long-term goals come out of one's worldview. In a long-term relationship the couple needs to jointly create either a shared or an overlapping worldview, with at least one ongoing shared activity.

A couple could define a shared worldview (and could have more than one of the following):

"Let's have an intellectually meaningful life" (studying; learning)

"Let's have a spiritually centered life" (personal-growth; religion)

"Let's have a family centered life" (time with children, families of origin, extended family)

"Let's help the world" (volunteer work; teaching)

"Let's change the world" (politics)

"Let's have a beautiful life" (aesthetic enjoyment; generating and spending wealth)

"Let's have a fun life" --- (doing activities which are enjoyable; socializing; traveling)

***********************************************************************************

I would say that the Epicurean worldview is a mix of "fun and meaningful".

Some of the above ideas in the list are from an online article...I added in quite a bit of my own ideas...and this list might still need more added).
Source: https://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/a4175…r-is-worldview/

***********************************************************************************

The deeper importance of all this is to consider your "worldview" compatiblity before you enter a long-term relationship.

If you are already married, you can work toward creating an overlapping worldview with common shared goals and shared activities.

This also means that if you are very enthusiastic about Epicureanism, how is your partner going to respond to that? How might you include your partner? How might you forgive/respect your partner if it seems that there is no way to include them in your enthusiasm for Epicureanism. (tip: make sure you have another area in your life that you are both equally enthusiastic about). This is all common sense, but presenting these ideas just in case, hope they are helpful.

Some of the topics that came up in tonights Zoom meeting...I am not a very good note taker, and there was so much good stuff that came up...and there was a lot more than this:

-Epicurean physics: why does it matter?

---it is part of an alternate theory of where the world came from - a worldview not created by supernatural gods/god.

-Can you know anything or not, confidence in your conclusions

-when it is appropriate to take a position on the things you can't ever know

-senses don't lie, but your understanding can (?)

-the problem of civilization, seeking wealth as the road to pleasure, Wall of Diogenes of Oenoanda.

-Platonic absolutes, some absolute standard to conform to...but Epicurus says no...grounded on feelings and senses, and in the understanding of the way things are.

Thank you everyone, and especially Cassius, for your helpful comments.

I don't think I would be enjoying my study of Epicureanism without everyone's help here on this forum. So this is an example of how community is helpful.

I think that atheists would probably be the most receptive people to talk to about Epicureanism, because there are so many similarities. In the atheist meetup that I went to pre-covid, I can't think of even one of the attendees who would actually believe in an afterlife. As for unexamined Platonic ideas (perhaps the "left-over" remains of a Christian upbringing) I can imagine if that was an issue, they would be very open to examining that. The main difficulty would be to convey: "pleasure as the highest good".

I would say tranquility is in the service of pleasure, so tranquility is under the umbrella of pleasure. So that also means that for those who really enjoy tranquility, then we must see that they desire it for the sake of pleasure. But those who enjoy tranquility, shouldn't make judgements against those modern Epicureans who enjoy motion, movement, sensations, and the liveliness of an "extroverted" lifestyle.

And of course, even friendship is in the service of pleasure.

I've been contemplating why it is that I feel that the Epicurean worldview is so important to me. In the study of Epicureanism, I have found many helpful ideas for how I want to make sense out of my life, and also how to determine what I want more of in my life (and less of) in my life. And yet, I am still in the process of formulating my own personal understanding of what is an "Epicurean worldview".

My childhood experience of growing up in Christianity and going to church shaped my mind and how I see the world. As a young child and young teen, I was fully absorbed into the church and religous beliefs, due to the intense programs that children were placed in. But by age 16, I began questioning my religious understanding of God, and by the age of 17, I could no longer believe in God. After moving out of my parents house, I began the journey of overcoming that strict Christian worldview that I was raised in. Going to college helped a bit, and also along the way I met people who greatly helped to expand my views and challenged me to think outside of "black and white" and "either / or" thinking.

After a number of years of studying all world religions and psychology/self-help, I entered into sole study and practice of Buddhism (for about 10 years). I studied on my own for a time, but then attended several different groups. I then went deeply into Zen Buddhist practice at a Zen temple, but then found it to be unsatisfying for a number of reasons.

So now coming to the study of Epicureanism just this last year (2020), and acknowledging that I have a bit of a "religious" drive within myself, and that I have a drive to find meaning in a complete worldview. I see Epicureanism as having a worldview in which I can organize my thoughts and my desires. On encountering this philosophy, I already had within me the "seeds" of this kind of thinking, so basically the draw for me is that this philosophy already resonates for me. I am not changing myself to fit into anything, much of how I think is already "Epicurean".

Coming from my past experience in Christianity and Buddhism, I see that surrounding oneself with others who have the same worldview can create a feeling of safety, security, and belonging. I acknowledge that I do feel a desire to surround myself with people who share my worldview of Epicureanism, but this is made a bit more difficult by the fact that there are so few Epicureans. The only answer to this is to create a way to share Epicureanism with others, and to build Epicurean community.

Also, when it comes to an internal sense of personal identity, perhaps that is something unique for every person, and the desire or "feeling of need" is at various levels, whether one feels secure or insecure in relation to other people. And this personal identity can affect what one wants from other people, such as the drive for emotional sharing or emotional closeness, or the drive for belonging and recognition...the desire to see and be seen, and to understand and be understood.

Others here on the forum may feel fine living independently in an Epicurean worldview, and not feel a desire to be surrounded by a community, and I can accept that. But for myself, I feel a great desire to create something, and how and what that will be is still unfolding. I want to call forward the creation of whatever is the most pleasureable and joyful community. And so I want to send out this to see what others think with regard to the Epicurean worldview and creating community?

I will attend Tuesday night Zoom. Topic of personal outlines...and other topics...

And have the following questions to discuss then...or if anyone else wants respond to the following questions, please respond in this thread if you can't attend the Zoom:

--what are best topics for a Zoom/in-person Epicurean study group...what topics might draw people to attend?

--to create an agenda or to not create an agenda?

--alternative times for meetings?

I found this and wanted to cross reference...as it brings up some interesting ideas:

Post

Friendship as Supported by the Canon, Physics, and Ethics

I have had a private and enjoyable conversation with a member about Epicurean friendship, and I think it has been a while since we specifically discussed friendship here. The member had a question about how "agape", an ancient Greek term for love which has been used for a sort of general charity and well-wishing by Christians, might be able to blend with our philosophy.

Here is a good example of how, by sticking to the original 3 part philosophic structure of Canon, Physics, and Ethics, and by…

Elayne

August 21, 2019 at 7:15 PM

Quote

In the above linked thread, Elayne writes:

PD 39 and VS 28, remind us that because we are using reality-based processes, not idealistic concepts, we will not have anything to do with virtues that treat all humans the same. We will not use abstract consequentialism. We must use our observations and feelings to find out who is a friend to us and who is not.

And so now, some further pragmatic advice...we need to reach out and make "bids" for connection. Just researching this idea on the internet...I found this excellent article, and the advice is for everyone, regardless of gender. This is such a good article, so please read the whole thing, if you feel so inclined.

Quote

But as far as getting that cycle going, “it does take some push from someone,” she says. “I think a lot of people, myself included, can sometimes get stuck. Like ‘They haven’t called me, so I’m not going to call them.’ If you want to talk to your friend just call them. You don’t have to play chicken about who’s going to take the first step.”

Rawlins, however, doesn’t care for the bid concept. “I don’t think of friendships in economic terms,” he says. “I don’t think about ‘investing’ in friends. I see friendship as an ongoing conversation. A way of literally coauthoring the story of our relationship.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive…-closer/538092/

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/08/how-friends-become-closer/538092/

How to improve existing friendships, from a NY Times article:

Quote

5 ways to make your friendships closer

If you want closer friendships, the first step is to decide you’re going to do something about it. “We think about relationships as things that happen to us, but the truth is that we make them happen,” Dr. Johnson said. Getting closer to your existing friends requires making the time and being intentional.

Once you have determined to work on your friendships, here are five techniques to try.

1. Create a foundation of security (hint: Answer that text)

Before we can attempt closeness, we need to have security. Through his research, Dr. Levine has identified the five foundational elements of secure relationships, which he refers to as CARRP.

• Consistency (Do these friends drift in and out of my life on a whim?)
• Availability (How available are they to spend time together?)
• Reliability (Can I count on them if I need something?)
• Responsiveness (Do they reply to my emails and texts? Do I hear from them on a consistent basis?)
• Predictability (Can I count on them to act in a certain way?)

Once these five elements are in place, it can pave the way to a deeper connection. “From an attachment perspective, once we feel safe, we can start being more adventurous and playful, which helps us at work, raising our kids, in every aspect of our lives,” Dr. Levine said.

That doesn’t mean that you have to respond to texts within the hour, but it does mean that you need to create a baseline of responsiveness and availability so your friends feel secure in your friendship. Likewise, if you have friends who are flaky, unresponsive or unreliable, it will serve you to try to see if they can become more CARRP and if not, look to other people for close friendship.

“We often tell ourselves that we shouldn’t care if somebody cancels plans or we can’t count on them, that we should be more laid back and stop being so needy, but that’s the same as fighting against biology,” Dr. Levine said.

2. Pay close attention

The next step of creating close friendships is to just open your eyes. Humans have a unique ability to read emotions by mimicking subtle facial expressions.

“Intimacy starts with attention and attunement,” Dr. Johnson said. “When you look at somebody with your full attention, your face muscles start to mirror their facial muscles within milliseconds. If you aren’t giving them your full attention, you can miss it completely.”

This mimicry helps us empathize with the emotional experiences of the other person. The next time you’re with a friend who is sharing something about his or her life, Dr. Johnson suggested that you look that person in the face and give your full attention. This will create a psychological sense of connection. “As bonding mammals built for connection, this makes our nervous systems hum,” she said.

3. Let yourself be known

If you want to be seen for who you are, you have to be willing to stop pretending to be somebody cooler or smarter than you are. Admit that you binge watch “Honey Boo-Boo,” are jealous of other people’s accomplishments or don’t always brush your teeth before bed. Make that goofy joke. Share that less-than-flattering detail.

“You have to try to help people understand and accept you, which conversely means you have to understand and accept yourself enough that you believe you can make somebody else’s life brighter just by being in it,” said Donald Miller, author of “Scary Close: Dropping the Act and Finding True Intimacy.”

In his 40s, Mr. Miller said, he had a successful career as an author and public speaker and an audience that adored him, but lived without true intimacy in his life. Determined to connect with others, he learned that the only way to get the intimacy he was searching for was to start being more honest about who he was.

Helping people understand and accept you may sound intimidating, but getting started is easier than you think. Dr. Levine suggests that the next time you’re with a friend, start diverting the conversation into exposing more vulnerability. When your friend responds in a way that feels supportive, give positive feedback by saying how helpful that was, or what a good perspective your friend has on your situation.

4. Take your friends on a test drive

Most of us would consider a close friend somebody we could call in a pinch. But if you, like me, have a romantic partner or live close to family, you might rarely find yourself in a pinch that requires a friend. I recently had to undergo a minor medical procedure and my husband wasn’t able to go with me. “Why don’t you call one of your friends?” he asked me the night before, naming a couple of friends who might be available. I didn’t have a good answer. Sure, these were pretty good friends, but were we medical-procedure close?

When I posed this situation to Dr. Levine, his suggestion was simple: Take them for a test drive. “Ask for help even when you don’t need it so that when you truly need them, you’ll feel more comfortable reaching out and you’ll have a better sense of how they will respond.”

He suggested that the next time I had an issue — a tricky work situation or I needed help coordinating a birthday dinner — I should go out of my way to lean on a friend. Not only is this a low-risk way of testing how reliable a friend is, it also builds closeness. “When we give someone a chance to show up for us, we pose an opportunity for greater bonding and closeness,” Dr. Levine said.

5. Accept that closeness isn’t one-size-fits-all

I asked the same question of everyone I interviewed for this article: How much closeness do we need? Each person gave a different answer, each of which boiled down to this: It’s not that simple.

Dr. Chen said that it varied from person to person; some of us need dozens of connections, some of us need only two or three connections, but we all need some closeness to others. Dr. Johnson emphasized that building intimate connection in our love relationships is even more essential than building it in our friendships. Mr. Miller said that it had to be the right people. Dr. Levine mentioned that being able to confide in somebody or call in an emergency is only one type of closeness, and not necessarily the only important kind.

What all of the experts agreed on was this: Intimacy with other people — whether it’s a spouse, a family member or a friend — is one of the most profound ways to be happier, healthier and calmer. As Dr. Levine said, “It’s so potent that it will work much better than any Xanax out there.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/20/sma…riendships.html

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Some tips for where and how to make new friends from an online article (will include link below).

--- Find new friends where you work - this sounds practical, however won't work for those who work from home, or are retired, or unemployed.

---"Micro-communities are another great way to find new friends while also doing activities that you love. Have a penchant for gardening or volunteer work? Groups like that still exist—just browse social media or your local newspaper. Can’t find your dream group? Now’s a good time to start it yourself."

More tips from the article:

* Confidence is key. Arm yourself with a good self-introduction and be ready to engage in casual conversation with people you come across.

* Put in an active effort. Friendships rarely just happen.

* Say yes to safe, socially distanced opportunities. On the flip side: Have a good reason to say no.

* Remember: You set the expectations for your own space.

* Keeping up with a routine can offer strong support to virtual friendships.

* Use your network however you can.

* Be kind to yourself. It might be hard to make friends at first. Remember, there are people who want to be your friend.

Source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-t…mic-11600782801

Principle Doctrine 27:

Principle Doctrine 27 is very important for a happy life. Modern life is busy with work and family, and yet we all still need friends. So it is very important to take the time and put the effort into making friends and maintaining friendships. Some people might be satisfied with the number and kind of friendships in their lives, but others (like myself) could put some work into making more friends.

And for any of us who are not currently in any kind of romantic relationship, (and maybe not even dating), it takes a lot of friends to make up for not having a romantic partner or a life partner.

Friendships can be challenging for some, especially for introverts. And the covid shutdowns, covid restrictions and restructuring, and continued mask mandates have had a big impact on socializing and making new friends. So this thread is a bit of an "antidote" for anyone who feels lonely, or who wishes to have more friends in their life.

I want to have this thread running for anyone who wants to say 'hi'... or drop in here for giving or receiving friendship support.

So for anyone who feels the desire to make more friends, and improve their friendships. I will post helpful tips, and feel free to share any of your own tips as well.

Here is a beautiful Leonard Cohan song about life-long marriage, and this would illustrate "secure attachment" style.

Attachment theory is interesting, in that it points to why some marriages last and go more smoothly than others. According to attachment theory, a person’s early relationships in life with mother/caregiver can affect their romantic relationships later on. The four attachment styles are: 1) secure 2) anxious-preoccupied 3) dismissive-avoidant 4) fearful-avoidant

How Different Attachment Styles Affect Relationships

Knowing your attachment style can help improve your romantic relationship.

www.psychologytoday.com

Examining the meaning of: "Sex is never beneficial, and you are lucky if it doesn't actually harm you."

From a modern understanding...what kind of "harm" are we talking about now, in our times?

Without birth control and condom use, sex can lead to pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases - so if you want to avoid those harms you must be scrupulous in your birth control and STD protection methods.

And also more importantly, from sex, some emotional consequences will be felt...which can become complicated if you are not in a committed relationship. (Casual sex will result in it's own type of emotional consequences, but since we are talking about Valentine's Day and "romance" and "love", I will exclude discussing modern casual sex, which is only practiced by a very small percentage of the population anyway).

I would say that the emotional consequences of sex within a committed relationship are "addiction" and a drive to protect what you have...so "attachment"...which can lead to fear of losing what you love, and jealousy. And then you are in a very precarious place within yourself...you are less free...but these are just some ideas, haven't thought this through very much yet. It is possible that in the right situation, you will not end up with the negative emotions of over-attachment, but you can only prevent this if both people in the relationship are very emotionally mature and grounded.

So most people choose to have children and also do so within the legal protections of marriage. And modern marriage is a big subject, which I think would be better discussed by someone who is both married and happily married.

Quote from Don

Just found this in Academia. Just read the first few paragraphs,

Reading further, the author of that article concludes that the traditional translation is the right one:

Quote

Until very weighty evidence is brought forward to the contrary, it seems to me that we should feel confident that the traditional translation is the right one: sex is never beneficial, and you are lucky if it doesn't actually harm you-by implica- tion, it usually does. The sentence does not say "sex is desirable"; the syntax does not connect those two words. As to Cicero's translation, I reluctantly conclude that he, like Purinton, simply got it wrong.

Quote from Cassius

in terms of marriage in Epicurus' own context, we need to be sure we keep grounded in Epicurus' will, in which he provided for the marriage of Metrodorus' daughter.

That in itself doesn't prove any position on marriage. It was just the prudent and compassionate thing to do, because back then all respectable women were married...all unmarried women would have been either a courtesan or a prostitute. But for men, they could live unmarried and not be stigmatized.

It seems that the only way to solve this puzzle for modern times, is to use a hedonic calculus. But then how do you determine the outcome with regard to pleasure and pain? This simply could be a subjective feeling, so some people might decide that marriage results in too much pain and so will not get married...or if divorced they will not seek to get re-married. But the problem is that you sometimes can't predict the outcome. And then this: is it worth experiencing an extreme amount of emotional pain so that you can enjoy some brief times of emotional (and physical) pleasure?

Thank you Don for sharing your "Epicurean Sage" translations...very helpful to read.

So...we could do an intellectual assessment of the historical context of male/female (or even male/male) relationships back in Epicurus' time...because it's quite fascinating how different things were, for people in ancient Greece and ancient Rome.

But for now maybe let's stay with love and romance in modern times...

Here is an interesting song by a band called "Sweet" that I came across just last year (this song was shortly before my generation of music)...I am focusing specifically on the chorus (and not on the verses).

"Love is like oxygen,

You get too much,

You get too high,

Not enough,

And your gonna die."

So thinking about just these words...this talks about a human need. And also the need for having the best amount of love. But there is "sexual love" and "non-sexual love"...romance or friendship...and in modern times we can sometimes have a mix of both (a very rare thing in the form of a "situationship"). And certainly for married couples the best hoped for situation is a mix of romance and friendship.

Since we are talking about Valentine's Day, I am excluding from this discussion "family love" which would be a type of friendship, such as between sibblings, or adult parents being friends with adult children. I am also excluding the "non-sexual" -- "love-as-a-duty"...when there is a mix of the feeling of duty and caring...the feeling of caring but not necessarily loving. (Yet there could be a mix of caring and loving).

The word "love" itself becomes very complicated because of all it's forms.

Also it is important to exclude "love as infatuation" since this is based on the imagination and is not based on reality...except...wait a minute ...isn't this what Valentine's Day is all about??? And so many millions of modern love songs, are all describing the "love as infatuation" kind of romantic love. Is this "passionate love" the very thing of human sexual reproduction...we must submit to this inaccurate mixed up state of mind in order to procreate? Perhaps this is how it is for us now, but back in Epicurus' time marriage was not for love and romance, but only for having children.

Now popping back into thinking about the original Epicurean Garden...was there an emphasis on friendship as a substitute for "romantic" entanglements? Was there an emphasis on friendship based on the study of philosophy? Were there rules against the kind of romantic entanglements that might have been going on back then...romantic relationships with courtesans and also paiderastia (yikes! way too complicated for me).

So maybe we better bring it back to modern times...would a modern Epicurean think: if you are married, then that's fine...stay married (if your marriage is working out fine) and if you are single, then stay single because you will find more "love" (of the friendship variety) amongst a group of friends than by going off with one person.

But then this does bring up the question of friendship. As in modern times we can have very deep friendships, or just very shallow superficial friendships.

Does anyone know if Philodemus wrote anything on friendships?

Would love to hear comments on anything I have written here

Valentine's Day is one month away...how do we make sense of romance and love within the "Epicurean worldview". Is romantic love in direct opposition of the wisdom of free-will?

Quote

Diogenes Laertius :

Book 10, Sections 84-154

"They do not think that the wise man will ever be in love, nor that he will be anxious about his burial, nor that love is a passion inspired by the gods, as Diogenes says in his twelfth book. They also assert that he will be indifferent to the study of oratory. Intercourse, say they, is never any good to a man, and we must be quite content if it does no harm; [119] G and the wise man will never marry or beget children, as Epicurus himself lays it down, in his Problems and in his treaties on Nature. Still, under certain circumstances of life, he will forsake these rules and marry."

Diogenes Laertius: Principal Doctrines of Epicurus

And yet, is Venus standing at the center of the Epicurean Garden?

Lucretius begins his De rerum natura (On the Nature of Things) with a dedication to Venus:

Quote

Address to Venus

By Lucretius

Delight of Human kind, and Gods above;
Parent of Rome; Propitious Queen of Love;
Whose vital pow’r, Air, Earth, and Sea supplies;
And breeds what e’r is born beneath the rowling Skies:
For every kind, by thy prolifique might,
Springs, and beholds the Regions of the light:
Thee, Goddess thee, the clouds and tempests fear,
And at thy pleasing presence disappear:
For thee the Land in fragrant Flow’rs is drest,
For thee the Ocean smiles, and smooths her wavy breast;
And Heav’n it self with more serene, and purer light is blest.
For when the rising Spring adorns the Mead,
And a new Scene of Nature stands display’d,
When teeming Budds, and chearful greens appear,
And Western gales unlock the lazy year,
The joyous Birds thy welcome first express,
Whose native Songs thy genial fire confess:
Then savage Beasts bound o’re their slighted food,
Strook with thy darts, and tempt the raging floud:
All Nature is thy Gift; Earth, Air, and Sea:
Of all that breathes, the various progeny,
Stung with delight, is goaded on by thee.
O’er barren Mountains, o’er the flow’ry Plain,
The leavy Forest, and the liquid Main
Extends thy uncontroul’d and boundless reign.
Through all the living Regions dost thou move,
And scattr’st, where thou goest, the kindly seeds of Love:
Since then the race of every living thing,
Obeys thy pow’r; since nothing new can spring
Without thy warmth, without thy influence bear,
Or beautiful, or lovesome can appear,
Be thou my ayd: My tuneful Song inspire,
And kindle with thy own productive fire;
While all thy Province Nature, I survey,
And sing to Memmius an immortal lay
Of Heav’n, and Earth, and every where thy wond’rous pow’r display.
To Memmius, under thy sweet influence born,
Whom thou with all thy gifts and graces dost adorn.
The rather, then assist my Muse and me,
Infusing Verses worthy him and thee.
Mean time on Land and Sea let barb’rous discord cease,
And lull the listening world in universal peace.
To thee, Mankind their soft repose must owe,
For thou alone that blessing canst bestow;
Because the brutal business of the War
Is manag’d by thy dreadful Servant’s care:
Who oft retires from fighting fields, to prove
The pleasing pains of thy eternal Love:
And panting on thy breast, supinely lies,
While with thy heavenly form he feeds his famish’d eyes:
Sucks in with open lips, thy balmy breath,
By turns restor’d to life, and plung’d in pleasing death.
There while thy curling limbs about him move,
Involv’d and fetter’d in the links of Love,
When wishing all, he nothing can deny,
Thy charms in that auspicious moment try;
With winning eloquence our peace implore,
And quiet to the weary World restore.

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Aphrodite of Menophantos, a Venus pudica ("modest venus") the best-known copy type of the Venus of Cnidus, here bearing the signature of the sculptor Menophantos: "work by Menophantos, after the Aphrodite in the Troad". Marble, Greek artwork, 1st century BC. From the church San Gregorio al Celio, Rome. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Venus_pudica_Massimo.jpg

Is this to be seen as a reverence for nature and the natural world, rather than a reverence for romantic love?

Quote from Cassius

selecting particular views of the "good" would be contradictory to the basics of the philosophy of an atomistic universe.

Everyone has a formulation in their mind about what is "good" and what is "true". And unless they have a materialist view and pragmatic pleasure goal, then their mental conceptions and words will all be based on something very different than the "Epicurean worldview".

And in addition, here on the forum our definition of "good" and "true" is anything that is synonymous to the original teachings of Epicurus. Until everyone is completely clear about what the original teachings of Epicurus are, then we can't move forward as easily. So we almost need an "Epicurean Bible".

And now, I am not so sure that having meetings at a UU church would work...as there can be a "religious" undercurrent (a loving/benevolent Universe) based on a worldview that is different than Epicurean worldview. Epicureans would say the "Universe" is indifferent. And what exactly is this "Universe"...Epicureans would cognate it differently than UU's.

My reason for the giving the above statistics, is that here in Oregon, people will probably be more likely to join a Zoom meeting than to attend something in-person. But then who will join a Zoom meeting? It comes down to very few people...so for now this must be both on national and global level, not local level. That's just my opinion for now. Come summertime things might be different, and in addition outdoor meeting at parks or outdoor areas of breweries might make for a good meeting location.

Quote from SimonC

I think finding a critical mass of people in a given location is a much larger issue than the logistics.

I have wondered what kind of people would come to an in-person meeting on "Epicurean Philosophy"?

But before I can even answer that question I have to consider that in-person meeting aren't isn't going to happen for a while until Omicron cases come down.

"The 7-day rolling average of new coronavirus cases as they were reported by the Oregon Health Authority: 8,660"...Further here is what is happening for kids in schools: “If a school cannot confirm that 6 feet of distancing was consistently maintained or 3 foot distancing with consistent mask use was maintained during the school day, then each person the confirmed case was in contact with would be considered a close contact. Exposed close contacts without symptoms would either need to quarantine for seven days or be part of a “test-to-stay” program." ...Indoor masking requirements for all indoor public places remain (for all people over age 2)

Quote from smoothiekiwi

if there's an equal amount of pain and pleasure connected with an act, I'd choose not to have it- because, in my subjective experience, pleasure doesn't "negate" pain at a 1:1 ratio.

This jostled my memory regarding marriage:

Quote

That “magic ratio” is 5 to 1. This means that for every negative interaction during conflict, a stable and happy marriage has five (or more) positive interactions.

“When the masters of marriage are talking about something important,” Dr. Gottman says, “they may be arguing, but they are also laughing and teasing and there are signs of affection because they have made emotional connections.”

On the other hand, unhappy couples tend to engage in fewer positive interactions to compensate for their escalating negativity. If the positive-to-negative ratio during conflict is 1-to-1 or less, that’s unhealthy, and indicates a couple teetering on the edge of divorce.

https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-magic…ording-science/

Quote from Matt

With the numbers of people in society who are otherwise detached from reality increasing steadily, the “casual” remarks about unfounded things are becoming much more irritating.

We need to join together to further the understanding of science and the scientific method, as well as uphold the materialist understanding of life. We need to talk about it and share about it with others, not as a "defense" (or out of anger) but rather out of enjoyment. So not forcing it on others, but being a witness to it and it's benefits. There more people that "think clearly" the better the world will become.