Posts by Kalosyni

This thread is for food (and food as medicine) in the time of Epicureans in ancient Greece and Rome.

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Regarding honey in ancient times:

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In Athens, beekeeping was so organized that the great legislator Solon (640-558 BC) was forced to define by law the distances that should exist between apiaries so as not to create misunderstandings about the ownership of flocks.

They did not have sugar, but they had honey, as part of their diet and medicine.

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Some of the ways in which the ancient Greeks used honey in their daily lives were the following:

Acid honey. Honey with vinegar. How to deal with fever.

Apple honey. Apples preserved in honey throughout the year. The honey acquired the characteristic smell of apples. They parsed the same recipe with other fruits.

Mead honey. Liqueur resulting from alcoholic fermentation of honey.

Melikrato. Honey with milk. Food for children.

Wine honey. Honey with wine. It is reported that Democritus lived to a ripe old age because he consumed wine honey with bread.

Hippocrates excludes the beneficial effect of “wine honey” on healthy and sick, Pythagoras finds that honey eliminates fatigue, while Democritus writes about well-being and longevity because of honey.

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Honey in history: Ancient Greece

Greece has always been a land with beautiful and various flora. Honey bees have always been at home here. Today their excellent honey is sold all over the…

healthywithhoney.com

Quote from Cassius

3- "that Pleasure can be complete when it fills out experience, and thus we don't always need more" (PD3)

There are certain pleasures in which one must take care -- PD3 ought to be combined with PD8 -- especially when eating dessert -- because the bad result doesn't come till later on, after you have eaten too much. At a family gathering today, the adults knew how to apply reason with regard to limiting the quantity of dessert, but my great-nephews and great niece wanted to have third helpings of dessert -- their mom had to tell them they had already had enough.

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...sugar also triggers the mesocorticolimbic system, known as the “reward pathway,” in the brain. When we consume sugar, the prefrontal cortex, amygdala, ventral-tegmental area, and nucleus accumbens are stimulated, releasing dopamine. After sugar triggers this system, we’re left craving more, because these parts of the brain are responsible for behavior reinforcement, pleasure-seeking, and addiction, according to a study published in Neuroscience & Biobehavioral Reviews in 2019.

For more on sugar, read this.

Quote from Nate

“Epicurus is occasionally described as as a saviour (sōtér) or messenger (kéryx), terms which are also used by Epicureans themselves and are reminiscient of Old Testament expressions. Perhaps such a choice of words was intended as a kind of ‘competitive offer’ to the blossoming Christianity.” (The Cambridge Companion to Epicureanism 53)

The current understanding of the word "saviour" comes to us by the Christian faith in Jesus being eternal/immortal and all powerful. I would doubt Epicureans felt that way about Epicurus. The word "messenger" implies that the message is coming from God (or the gods), but then maybe there was a different understanding of this word back then. Could it be that back in time there were groups of Christian Epicureans, or groups that converted from Christianity to Epicureanism?

Further thought on prayer (and regarding post # 1 of this thread) -- I have a hard time with the idea that Epicureans prayed to the gods "on purpose". And my understanding of the importance of birthdays in Epicureanism is that this could either take the place of sacrifice to the gods, or as a way to establish a ritual which would focus the minds of Epicureans on mortality and friendship -- hey, we are mortal and only live this one life, so let's honor human lives with birthday celebrations, and also friendship being a reason to celebrate birthdays. Can we really know one way or another?

Quote from Nate

“[P]etitionary prayer to the gods is obviously, for an Epicurean, of no avail; and, indeed, as Epicurus says in his Vatican sayings 65, it is pointless to pray for happiness which a man can provide for himself. If the gods paid attention to human prayers the human race would long since have become extinct since men are continually praying for calamities to fall upon their enemies [...] Yet Epicurus recommend prayer, on the grounds that it is a natural act and that one should also participate in the religious life of one’s country,

Thanks for sharing this about prayer. Now in modern times Christian people are praying for things that they want (and not against enemies). Since I am currently living with and near family, I am often in a "strange situation" in which I have to "pretend" to pray out of kindness and respect to my family. I do feel that there is something about the situation that is parallel to what Epicureans must have encountered. There is something comforting in being clear about my own thoughts on God and death. So I can "pretend pray" without feeling uncomfortable.

Some thoughts regarding the question: "Is there a notion of cultivating "sensitivity" in Epicureanism".

I would say that for myself, I am cultivating the ability to be aware and to reason regarding the nature of pleasure and pain in my body and mind. This would be based on several of the Principle Doctrines.

PD8 -"No pleasure is bad in itself; but the means of paying for some pleasures bring with them disturbances many times greater than the pleasures themselves."

PD29 -"Among desires, some are natural and necesary, some are natural and unnecessary, and some are unnatural and unnecessary (arising instead from groundless opinion).

Quote from Root304

I've mainly been intrigued with the ideas in Internal Family Systems therapy, where the mind is seen as having a multiplicity of personalities that we engage with in a social way in the therapeutic space (the inner critics, the inner children, ect). The angry inner voices are "entities" we should engage with.

I am not familar with this therapy, nor the others you mention.

You might like to look into the writings of Philodemus "On Anger". I haven't studied it, but Don has, and could point to threads or material to read.

Some further thoughts -- Modern therapy is very different than Epicureanism, and according to this Wikipedia article on psychotherapy, is thought to have begun in 1879. And now there are many new therapies, which may not be "evidence based". I hold a materialist and scientific understanding of the world, and so personally I would avoid any therapy which is not scientifically tested. Here is a website explaining evidence based therapy.

Quote from Root304

I got a lot of pleasure and a settled mind in doing the work,

That sounds great! So if you find it is helpful and leads to more enjoyment (and less pain) that sounds like it is good for you. We each find pleasure in many different ways. Others here on the forum have other avenues in which they seek pleasure. Life really presents a "smorgasbord" of pleasure, we just need to open up to it.

Thank you Cassius, I like this list!

I would personally rephrase # 2

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2 - "that anything we cannot sense is irrelevant to us and thus the state of being dead can cause us no harm or good" (PD2)

Consciousness depends on the body, without consciousness we cannot sense or even think, and thus the state of being dead can cause us no harm or good.

So it seems we need to keep in mind these two approaches, with regard to certain PDs:

1) logical postions against opposing philosophical schools

2) therapeutic interpretations

Welcome DavidN

From your name, I am guessing you were at last night's Open Invitation Epicurean Zoom?

Quote from Cassius

Nature’s wants are slight; the demands of opinion are boundless.

This quote is from post # 5 above -- This would be PD15. And it is expanding on the idea of "limits" on pleasure from a slightly different angle than PD3. In a sense it is a blend of both Plato's and Epicurus' arguments.

I think modern civilization is inseparable from the "demands of opinion" -- the idea that clothing, cars, homes, etc must all look new or well kept. And we recognize classes of people by their appearance and the appearance of their possessions, or by the state of the neighborhoods in which they live. These kinds of pleasures have no limit. You will have to invest time and effort toward these pleasures -- and much more difficult to fulfill for those who do not have enough money to spend -- and in some situations people work long and hard hours to fulfill these pleasures, so that any pleasure gained by this means is negated by the time and stress. And then this points also toward what types of pleasures to pursue, and that "natural" pleasures can be fullfilled and are achievable (thus have a limit) -- and give a longer lasting feeling of fullfillment.

Or:

---Plato said that the craving for pleasure has no end, and thus leads to wickedness.

But Epicurus said the craving for pleasure ends with the removal of all bodily pain and mental distress.

Based on the above, could the following be correct?

---Plato said that the craving for pleasure has no end, and thus leads to wickedness.

But Epicurus said pleasure is fulfilled and ends all craving, with the removal of all bodily pain and mental distress.

A Roman copy, production date: AD 1 - 160

bust | British Museum

Marble terminal bust of the philosopher Epicurus.

www.britishmuseum.org

Images of Epicurus -- I notice subtle differences in various renderings and sculptures -- subtle differences in the facial expression of the mouth. Can post more soon. Found this recently (not sure if it is on the forum in another location).

Epicurus face reconstruction

Alessandro Tomasi na Twitteru

“Face reconstruction of the Greek philosopher Epicurus, founder of the Epicurean school of philosophy (341–270 BC)”

mobile.twitter.com

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As I shall argue, these sections provide no evidence in favor of the sup-position that Epicureans believed that gods exist outside the minds of humans.

Wow, this article looks really good!

Just yesterday found this interesting article, which Don will likely appreciate (given that touches on the Greek words).

Here is an excerpt:

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2Commentators have so far discussed the complex intertextual relationship between the epigram and similar poems, especially Catullus 13 (invitation of Fabullus)3 and the whole sub-genre of Latin invitation poems which seems to be inspired by the epigram. Others have focused on the poem’s implications for our understanding of the social interactions between client and patronus in Roman society of the first century BCE.4 Its content also invites comparison with a group of Hellenistic epigrams dealing with dinner-invitations, dinner-preparations or feasting. Less well noticed are the epic ramifications of the poem and the way they might further our interpretation of its content.5

3The poem’s tension rests on the contrast between the simple meal in a simple setting and the exquisite entertainment provided by faithful friends.

I got image from this site:

Archimedes - Double herm with portrait heads of Epicurus and Metrodorus

Quote from Don

Let's say my life is stable, comfortable, overall pleasurable with episodes now and again of pain.
Something happens and I have to defend my home and family from hostile forces... I'm now in a war.
My life is now unstable, dangerous, with an overall abundance of pain with small episodes of pleasure.
I am fighting a war to return peace and stability to my life so I can again have a life that is stable, comfortable, and has more pleasure than pain. I did not choose to fight this war, but I now have no choice but to engage in war.
My side wins the war. I can piece my life back together hopefully and find more pleasure than pain in my existence.

In my mind survival does not equal pleasure. Survival does not guarantee pleasure. Don's quote is applicable even in other situations -- For example, someone getting into a career requiring long stressful hours of work, and then transitioning into a different line of work which is less stressful.

The drive for survival is not the same as the pursuit of enjoyment in life. In survival we want to eliminate pain, in enjoyment we are adding in pleasure.

These are all nuances, and interesting to talk about.

Hi Everyone

Tonight at 8:30 EDT is our "Open Invitation Epicurean Zoom" meeting!

I am looking forward to presenting some "Epicurean" art and music, which you will be sure to enjoy! And anyone who has Epicurean-themed art, music, or even poetry is welcome to share as well.

Then following that first half of the hour, we will move on to discuss Principle Doctrine 2, and we will take lots of time to really dive in to it. I think it is a wise idea to pair pleasurable art, music, etc. with this particular Principle Doctrine -- pleasure in this very life, since we believe that there is no after-life and no reincarnation.

You can sign up at any time, up until the start of the meeting time. Hope to see you there

Quote from Cassius

view of the definition is the common one, yet to understand the philosophy we have to use the broader one that Epicurus was using

I believe that given some time I can solve this "problem"

Here is the definition of the word "pleasure" that comes up at the top of the page with a Google search:

noun

a feeling of happy satisfaction and enjoyment.

"she smiled with pleasure at being praised"

synonyms: happiness, delight, joy, gladness, rapture, glee, satisfaction, gratification, fulfillment, contentment, contentedness, enjoyment, amusement, delectation

adjective

used or intended for entertainment rather than business.

"pleasure boats"

verb

give sexual enjoyment or satisfaction to.

"tell me what will pleasure you"