Posts by Kalosyni

I found this article about ecstatic dance and wanted to share. This is something that I used to do a few years back. (Now with covid still happening, it only occurs on a very scaled back level).

My question is this: How does dance fit with Epicureanism, as it is something which creates a certain level of passion and excitement.

Do we know if dancing did occur at Epicurus' Garden? Or would the focus be more on the philosophy, so everyone focused on learning and discussion of philosophy? Or perhaps later Gardens in Roman times had dancing?

How would dancing fit with a modern Garden? (I know there are different types of social dance and this is just one modern type of dance).

Excerpt from article:

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We all know what happens when a baby hears music.

If you haven’t witnessed it firsthand, you’ve likely encountered a YouTube video (or, if you’re in the majority, many videos) that captures a child’s reflexive physical reaction to music. Viral videos show babies instinctively scrunching up their faces and nodding their heads to a dubstep track, or flailing their arms and legs from the confines of a car seat when the chorus kicks in on a pop song. (And, if YouTube observations aren’t evidence enough, there’s research like this 2010 study that found babies are predisposed to move to music.)

Turn some tunes on for a kid and the results are not only adorable, they are telling: humans are born to dance.

Yet, even though this innate need to move doesn’t go away as we grow up, few of us adults let loose like our inner child would. When we do dance, it is often in a set way — in a dance class, for instance — or, if in more loose settings like the lusty dance floor of a nightclub, our movement can be filtered through the lenses of social norms and desires. Even as someone who relishes the opportunity to leave it all on the dance floor, my opportunities for truly liberated dance — the kind where you stop thinking and let your body go — are relegated to the dusty desert dance floors of Burning Man, the occasional concert and solo dance parties in my living room. (Of which there are many.)

So what happened to us from tot-hood to adulthood that tampered with our freedom to groove?

Quote from Cassius

And although I have not heard Kalosyni read anything, I bet she could read well too

I would be up for doing some audio reading (as long as I know beforehand how to correctly pronounce some of the proper names)...and would enjoy the process of making something enjoyable to listen to.

I just added this:

--Avoid using white font color in your postings as this completely disappears in some situations and with some themes.

I want to still add something about setting up notifications, but may not get to that for a few more days.

Quote from smoothiekiwi

I would love to visit such a garden with a smiling Epicurean and a lot of good friends in it!

We can each make it happen, where-ever we live!

Or...we all decide to move to one particular city and create one.

Since I live in the U.S., then that is where I would want to set up a Garden.

Everytime I say that I want to start a Epicurean Philosophy Garden, it sounds rather "grandiose"...and yet everything must first start with an idea.

I've decided I want to start one on the East Coast...now I have only to determine the best location...I am open to feedback on that by anyone who reads this.

Don the above outline you made is great!!!!!!!

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Furthermore, on the one hand, there are the natural desires; on the other, the 'empty, fruitless, or vain ones.' And of the natural ones, on the one hand, are the necessary ones; on the other, the ones which are only natural; then, of the necessary ones: on the one hand, those necessary for eudaimonia; then, those necessary for the freedom from disturbance for the body; then those necessary for life itself

If you visualize this as a flowchart...this shows that there are three catagories underneath both "natural and necessary":

1) necessary for eudaimonia

2) necessary for freedom from disturbance for the body

3) necessary for life itself

So "necessary for eudaimonia" could encompass a great number of things (things such as friendship...and you could then go as far as including such things a "sexual expression" as necessary for happiness -and- freedom from disturbance of the body).

I feel certain that back in time, this was much more clearly and exactly explained in Epicurus' teachings, but so much of the written teachings didn't survive. Is there anything in Epicurus' writings where we can gain more detail about what is "necessary for eudaimonia"?

Maybe the only way through all of this is to apply common sense and to "scientifically" test it and to make a list of things, and decide which of the three catagories we think they might fall into.

Here is my response to the Atlantic article...another article (lol)...this is about decision making, which I think has good information for all modern Epicureans to consider (provides a bigger picture of decision making)...some excerpts:

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Chocolate or strawberry? Life or death? We make some choices quickly and automatically, relying on mental shortcuts our brains have developed over the years to guide us in the best course of action. Understanding strategies such as maximizing vs. satisficing, fast versus slow thinking, and factors such as risk tolerance and choice overload, can lead to better outcomes.

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What is informed decision-making?

The ability to think critically is key to making good decisions without succumbing to common errors or bias. This means not just going with your gut, but rather figuring out what knowledge you lack and obtaining it. When you look at all possible sources of information with an open mind, you can make an informed decision based on facts rather than intuition.

Quote from Marco

8. If a desire appears to be insatiable, it is likely because a person is otherwise unhappy or because the desire is for something impossible.

9. When a person is focused on an impossible desire, such as to live forever, the poor fit of substitute pleasures makes them feel their ordinary desires are insatiable.

(This quote by Marco was originally from Elaine)

I've joined in here a little late...but wanted to say that this really makes sense for me.

Here a helpful analogy from Marshall Rosenberg (originator of Nonviolent Communication):

...Don't go to the hardware store if you want to buy eggs.

So by "empty" we actually mean impossible to fullful.

So much of mental suffering comes when we try to pursue "empty" desires. Some people have stronger habits around pursuing things that are "empty" and are unable to reason what is "empty" and what is real.

About the word "empty" - both the same usage in English and Greek - the word can appy to physical objects or to mental ideas.

Objects that can hold things (boxes, cups, etc.) can at times be empty.

Ideas that can hold things (truth, validity, reason, accuracy) can at times be empty.

Quote from SimonC

I registered an account because the common-sense interpretation of pleasure as opposed to bread-and-water ataraxia made sense to me, and in order to learn more.

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I just finished listening to the podcast...enjoyed it hearing many of the ideas presented, even though there were some hard topics presented (the torture description which I had never heard of before).

It seems to me that this podcast points to tranquil pleasures as being very important.

Quote from Cassius

"We refuse to believe, however, that when pleasure is removed, grief instantly ensues, excepting when perchance pain has taken the place of the pleasure; but we think on the contrary that we experience joy on the passing away of pains, even though none of that kind of pleasure which stirs the senses has taken their place; and from this it may be understood how great a pleasure it is to be without pain." --Cicero, paragraph #56

This explains the importance of absense of pain in Epicureanism.

And there was a comment about Cyrenaics...didn't take notes, so can't restate the exact quote. Instead, I will give this description from Wikipedia:

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"The Cyrenaics taught that the only intrinsic good is pleasure, which meant not just the absence of pain (as it did for Epicurus), but positively enjoyable sensations. Of these, momentary pleasures, especially physical ones, are stronger than those of anticipation or memory. They did, however, recognize the value of social obligation and that pleasure could be gained from altruistic behaviour. The school died out within a century and was replaced by the philosophy of Epicureanism."

I just feels like there is so much in common between the two schools. Because even mental pleasures of anticipation or memory exists "in time" and so has a momentary quality.

It is possible that my own belief leans more toward the Cyrenaics. Memory might become more important for me if I grow old and infirm. But for now I both need and want to "indulge" in pleasurable activity...and I choose healthy activities that don't bring pain or problems.

Have to share my feelings about "The Good Place" clip...on one level it is comedy, and on another level it illustrates how modern civilization might be "devolving" as evinced by the petty thoughts of the characters, and the story line. A few years ago with a friend...watched a few of the very early episodes of "The Good Place" and found it unappealing. Watching this clip reminds me that I can both laugh at comedy and feel disgusted by the underlying ideas presented. Perhaps some people find that internal discord entertaining. I would guess that it was presented here simply as a way to quickly illustrate the "trolley problem".

I haven't listened to the podcast yet...will have more to say after listening.

For anyone who feels that studying Epicureanism (and the resources on this website) is like an "independent study college course"...then these study tips might be a way of going about it:

Bloom's Taxonomy - remember, understand, appy, analyze, synthesize, evaluate, create:

Concept Maps – Learning Center

What are concept maps? Concept maps are visual representations of information. They can take the form of charts, graphic organizers, tables, flowcharts, Venn…

learningcenter.unc.edu

Just an idea... Maybe we need to collaboratively work on creating more documents in the lexicon section... "wikipedia" type pages... where we organize by topic, using the information presented in the best posts. We could have a simple glossary and links would open to an one or two page overview of each glossary entry. So this would by-pass the complexity of multiple threads. Already there is so much here that it would fill many books.

Cassius and Don and Matt (and anyone else)

I hope we can preserve and continue the discussion of ethics and justice, and continue exploring.

My initial intention of this thread was to investigate how to present Epicurean philosophy so that more people could learn and benefit. And that it would be nice to have something simplified for people who want to learn but don't have enough time to dedicate to this forum. This could take the form of an overview, possibly drawn from existing threads, nicely and simply formated for easy viewing:

Will now cross reference this thread which was recently referred to elsewhere:

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How Would You Answer Someone New Who Asked You: "What Is Epicurean Philosophy All About?"

If you met someone who asked you to explain to them what Epicurean Philosophy is about, how would you introduce them to it, and what are some examples of how it can be applied in everyday life?

Cassius

September 1, 2019 at 8:08 AM

Just to add in an important point...The Epicurean philosophy arose within ancient Athens, where there were laws and a judicial system, so everyone had a civilized sense of "right and wrong" much like we do now.

This idea comes to me now...

In Buddhism, when people formally join the community, they take precepts. The precepts contain within them an outline of the ways in which a person is to "do no harm" (to abstain from killing, to abstain from taking what is not given, and to abstain from false speech - being the main ones dealing with non-harming).

Since so much of what Epicurus wrote was lost, we can't know if back in Epicurus' time, his community had some sort of precepts that were taken or agreed upon.

Quote from Cassius

let's pursue these issues as deeply and at length as you are inclined to do so. And it's good to write them in the public threads too, because they have come up many times before and will come up many times in the future.

Thank you Cassius

Matt ...

...I see now that my fears are with an imaginary situation, since the reality is that this forum is virtual and not real life.

This whole discussion only makes sense in real life...in a real kepos, between real people, in real situations.

My question is how to trust other people who are in a shared real life environment? If everyone is pursuing firstly their own individual pleasure, they must also have a believe in the mutual motivation "to cause no harm"...or else there is no trust, and without trust there is no safety.