Thank you Cassius, I like this list!
I would personally rephrase # 2
2 - "that anything we cannot sense is irrelevant to us and thus the state of being dead can cause us no harm or good" (PD2)
Consciousness depends on the body, without consciousness we cannot sense or even think, and thus the state of being dead can cause us no harm or good.
So it seems we need to keep in mind these two approaches, with regard to certain PDs:
1) logical postions against opposing philosophical schools
2) therapeutic interpretations
Welcome DavidN 
From your name, I am guessing you were at last night's Open Invitation Epicurean Zoom?
Nature’s wants are slight; the demands of opinion are boundless.
This quote is from post # 5 above -- This would be PD15. And it is expanding on the idea of "limits" on pleasure from a slightly different angle than PD3. In a sense it is a blend of both Plato's and Epicurus' arguments.
I think modern civilization is inseparable from the "demands of opinion" -- the idea that clothing, cars, homes, etc must all look new or well kept. And we recognize classes of people by their appearance and the appearance of their possessions, or by the state of the neighborhoods in which they live. These kinds of pleasures have no limit. You will have to invest time and effort toward these pleasures -- and much more difficult to fulfill for those who do not have enough money to spend -- and in some situations people work long and hard hours to fulfill these pleasures, so that any pleasure gained by this means is negated by the time and stress. And then this points also toward what types of pleasures to pursue, and that "natural" pleasures can be fullfilled and are achievable (thus have a limit) -- and give a longer lasting feeling of fullfillment.
Or:
---Plato said that the craving for pleasure has no end, and thus leads to wickedness.
But Epicurus said the craving for pleasure ends with the removal of all bodily pain and mental distress.
Based on the above, could the following be correct?
---Plato said that the craving for pleasure has no end, and thus leads to wickedness.
But Epicurus said pleasure is fulfilled and ends all craving, with the removal of all bodily pain and mental distress.
A Roman copy, production date: AD 1 - 160
Images of Epicurus -- I notice subtle differences in various renderings and sculptures -- subtle differences in the facial expression of the mouth. Can post more soon. Found this recently (not sure if it is on the forum in another location).
Epicurus face reconstruction
As I shall argue, these sections provide no evidence in favor of the sup-position that Epicureans believed that gods exist outside the minds of humans.
Wow, this article looks really good!
Just yesterday found this interesting article, which Don will likely appreciate (given that touches on the Greek words).
Here is an excerpt:
2Commentators have so far discussed the complex intertextual relationship between the epigram and similar poems, especially Catullus 13 (invitation of Fabullus)3 and the whole sub-genre of Latin invitation poems which seems to be inspired by the epigram. Others have focused on the poem’s implications for our understanding of the social interactions between client and patronus in Roman society of the first century BCE.4 Its content also invites comparison with a group of Hellenistic epigrams dealing with dinner-invitations, dinner-preparations or feasting. Less well noticed are the epic ramifications of the poem and the way they might further our interpretation of its content.5
3The poem’s tension rests on the contrast between the simple meal in a simple setting and the exquisite entertainment provided by faithful friends.
Let's say my life is stable, comfortable, overall pleasurable with episodes now and again of pain.
Something happens and I have to defend my home and family from hostile forces... I'm now in a war.
My life is now unstable, dangerous, with an overall abundance of pain with small episodes of pleasure.
I am fighting a war to return peace and stability to my life so I can again have a life that is stable, comfortable, and has more pleasure than pain. I did not choose to fight this war, but I now have no choice but to engage in war.
My side wins the war. I can piece my life back together hopefully and find more pleasure than pain in my existence.
In my mind survival does not equal pleasure. Survival does not guarantee pleasure. Don's quote is applicable even in other situations -- For example, someone getting into a career requiring long stressful hours of work, and then transitioning into a different line of work which is less stressful.
The drive for survival is not the same as the pursuit of enjoyment in life. In survival we want to eliminate pain, in enjoyment we are adding in pleasure.
These are all nuances, and interesting to talk about.
Hi Everyone
Tonight at 8:30 EDT is our "Open Invitation Epicurean Zoom" meeting!
I am looking forward to presenting some "Epicurean" art and music, which you will be sure to enjoy! And anyone who has Epicurean-themed art, music, or even poetry is welcome to share as well.
Then following that first half of the hour, we will move on to discuss Principle Doctrine 2, and we will take lots of time to really dive in to it. I think it is a wise idea to pair pleasurable art, music, etc. with this particular Principle Doctrine -- pleasure in this very life, since we believe that there is no after-life and no reincarnation.
You can sign up at any time, up until the start of the meeting time. Hope to see you there
view of the definition is the common one, yet to understand the philosophy we have to use the broader one that Epicurus was using
I believe that given some time I can solve this "problem"
Here is the definition of the word "pleasure" that comes up at the top of the page with a Google search:
noun
a feeling of happy satisfaction and enjoyment.
"she smiled with pleasure at being praised"
synonyms: happiness, delight, joy, gladness, rapture, glee, satisfaction, gratification, fulfillment, contentment, contentedness, enjoyment, amusement, delectation
adjective
used or intended for entertainment rather than business.
"pleasure boats"
verb
give sexual enjoyment or satisfaction to.
"tell me what will pleasure you"
As usual I think we're basically at the same position. The interesting point that we can file away for the future is the extent to which illustrations like this are helpful in the "teaching" aspect of Epicurean philosophy. For the same reason that we discussed it we probably do need good examples of the point that only "pleasure" itself is ALWAYS a desirable feeling (because our nature presents itself to us that way.
That means everything else (even the **choice** to pursue a particular pleasure at a particular moment) has to be evaluated contextually.And I don't think we are just playing with words. I think the clear articulation of these issues has to come before we can clearly understand it or express the point to others.
Cassius, I think you are opening it up to a wider vision which takes in account all of human history. If we come back to our present modern time, we now have democracy and it's accompanying military system. The common person doesn't consider these kinds of questions. As you have brought all this up, I find it to be helpful in that is has me thinking in a broader scope.
Generally I don't think much on the ethics of these issues, war, etc, etc. (I do often find that I feel a certain resistence to the very topic of "war"). And also, thank you Marco for bringing up this topic and posting the podcast.
For me, my main focus here on the forum is for simple choices in life. The Epicurean philosophy presents a way of paying attention to pleasure, and making enjoyment of life a meaningful and worthy focus -- because we believe that we have just this life and no after-life or reincarnation.
For myself, I still need to spend more time with "unpacking" words and ideas dealing with "pleasure", "enjoyment", "happiness", "joy", especially because now our current modern cultural understanding of the word "pleasure" is very narrow. It think it will also continue to be an issue for others as well.
Have we ever pinned down concrete definitions of happiness, joy and pleasure?
I think it would be a good idea to have definitions.
For now I see that this thread is causing me to think about the meaning of the word "pleasure" and how I understand it.
The "pleasure of relief" in my mind is not pleasure - it is just relief.
Pleasure is for bodily sensations.
Enjoyment is for mental sensations.
My mind is too tired tonight, and I want to come back to this tomorrow, because this thread brings up issues that I think are of primary importance.
And in other cases happiness and joy can be the product of war, if under the circumstances war is necessary to obtain or preserve the peace.
Something about this statement doesn't sit with me well. But maybe it is right up there with: humans kill animals for food and eating them gives us life. The level of abstraction has missing pieces. It may take me several more days to ponder this.
Can you seek happiness and be full of joy when there is a war in Europe?
I have still been pondering this question. Also, because it applies to anything in life, as Cassius wrote: "Can you seek happiness and be full of joy when there is XXXX?"
Being that I live in the US, it feels like the war in Europe is very far away, and I do not personally know anyone affected by it. There have been many wars all through history, and also civil wars and coups in some places in third-world countries (which get much less attention).
Early on, my initial first reaction about what was happening in Ukraine was that I had to readjust my idea (my mental concept) of "world stability" - so observing this happen, the human mind has a way of evaluating the safety of the present moment and the anticipated future. If we feel safe then we can much more easily seek happiness. If we can trust that the world will still be safe then we can relax again.
For people who are directly affected by or living in areas of unrest, it would make more sense to be somber and pay attention, to what is happening, to stay alive. So in some sense happiness and joy are a product of peace. It would not be safe to spend too much time "seeking happiness" in an unsafe environment.
So now why are there those who are living in peace and safety unhappy?
Maybe they worry about war in an abstract sense, or they feel that any suffering in the world should not happen (the above podcast briefly brings up this idea).
There are also other things in life to worry about: one's own financial stabilty, job stability, or family stability. I think that is why it is important to work through one's personal issues with regard to worries in life. For without a sense of having one's basic needs met, it will be difficult to seek happiness.
The idea of "seeking happiness" also is something to investigate. In the podcast Wes Cecil says that we have a kind of "innate joy" or "native joy" that we can tape into. He gives the example of this joy with the image of two dogs playing and chasing each other - they are completely happy in their play. Also it is just paying attention to the good things in life, and the sweet things in life. So "seeking happiness" / "seeking joy" is easy to do -- provided that one's life is stable.
Seeing this photo gives me an idea that we could sell hoodies and t-shirts which say "EpicureanFriends.com" on the back side, and maybe it could have this logo I just made on the front --
-- and could also make with blue lettering instead of pink.
