beasain, I just looked up about propolis, and found an online article which says that
Greek and Roman physicians used it as mouth disinfectant and as an antiseptic and healing product in wound treatment, prescribed for topical therapy of cutaneous and mucosal wounds.
Joshua, hope to see you next week.
New folks are welcome to drop in to our next Open Invitation Epicurean Zoom, Wednesday evening, June 8th, at 8:30 ET!
We start out each meeting by going "around the table" and giving an opportunity for each participant to introduce themselves as they wish, such as a brief reference to previous background, level of interest in Epicurus, or current areas of study within Epicureanism.
This week we will discuss PD 6 & 7.
PD06. Whatever you can provide yourself with to secure protection from men is a natural good. [see note below]
PD07. Some men wished to become famous and conspicuous, thinking that they would thus win for themselves safety from other men. Wherefore if the life of such men is safe, they have obtained the good which nature craves; but if it is not safe, they do not possess that for which they strove at first by the instinct of nature.
*Note: The translation given is by Eugene O’Connor from “The Essential Epicurus.” Bailey: “To secure protection from men anything is a natural good by which you may be able to attain this end.” New Greek Version: “In order to obtain security from other people, there was (always) the natural good of sovereignty and kingship, through which (someone) once could have accomplished this.”
You can find the link to join the zoom here:
Welcome to the forum Beasain!
Thank you for your introduction and for sharing about your reading of Lucretius.
What are the reasons of hiding Hellenistic philosophy, and especially Epicurism? The Plato mafia of Hegel?
I don't know enough about Hegalian philosophy, but this question is interesting to me. I tend to focus mostly on the ethics of Epicureanism, and I would say that it is a very subtle teaching that not everyone can understand. Not only does it require a certain ability to critically think, but it requires one to think outside the box of Western civilization and the abstractions of thinking which come down from Platonic philosophy, and which have been reinforced and continue to be reinforced by Christianity. I think Epicureanism will remain a philosophy only for the few, as it requires one to move beyond "either-or" thinking and live a viceral and sensorial life within the physical world, while always remembering that this very life is all that we have. So we have this focus on the importance of making it a pleasant and pleasurable life, which goes against the current understanding of pleasure -- pleasure as being an escape from responsibility, or pleasure always leading to excess (and even being synonymous to excess). But we who are Epicureans are wiser than this. First we have to overcome all our previous conditioning with regard to experiencing pleasure. So at the beginning, it may seem that dancing with pleasure is like walking across a sharp edge of a razor blade: one misstep and you fall off. But yet with the practice of paying attention, then it is more like learning to ride a bike, and you see that it is quite natural actually, and it is the best way to live.
Continuing on with more on the "Medicine of Epicurus":
Vatican Saying 81 (from Monadnock)
"One will not banish emotional disturbance or arrive at significant joy through great wealth, fame, celebrity, or anything else which is a result of vague and indefinite causes".
From a practical standpoint, I would say that emotional disturbance is anything above and beyond natural reactions and natural emotions. Both positive and negative emotions are part of life. Emotions give us feedback to know what to move toward and what to move away from in a given situation, so all emotions are life serving, even painful ones.
Yet I would say that there are certain feelings that indicate a need for some kind of intervention (help from friends or a therapist). These would be overwhelming feelings (or emotional disturbances) such as hopelessness, long-lasting anger or sadness, chronic lethergy, or long-lasting feelings of anxiety or overwhelm. I can only recommend finding a therapist to help sort through these kinds of chronic emotional disturbances.
This Vatican Saying 81 also points to the idea that there are specific and definite causes of joy in life. What is joy? Is it the same as happiness? When the naturally good things in life come to us, we feel happiness. A good meal (and the right kind of food and the right amount of food) brings pleasure and we can feel happy in that experience. Also, spending time with those we love brings happiness. Doing activities we enjoy brings happiness. Having work that is interesting and not too taxing on the body (and not too mentally stressful).
Some ideas about: What are some mental conditions which lead to happiness?
1. You don't compare yourself to others as being less than in some way, but instead you know what your strengths and weaknesses are and you keep those in mind or in perspective as you navigate through life.
2. You don't feel badly about yourself or internally put yourself down -- instead you feel effective, and you feel you have a certain amount of control or choice over your circumstances. (See PD16)
3. You have supportive relationships in your life and people who you enjoy talking to, and you can share smiles and laughter, because you have things which you share together that you both can smile about. (See VS 52)
4. You have interesting things that you like to do, and have fun and enjoyment engaging in those activities.
5. You don't spend a lot of your time worrying about the future. (See PD39).
6. Of the people in your surrounding community, you don't think badly of anyone and they don't think badly of you. (See PD40)
Thoughts? Is there anything else that should be on this list?
Ancient Greek clothing / Ancient Roman clothing, if anyone is interested.
An idea -- that it could be fun at some point to dress up for the 20th celebration, as a way to make it more festive. And I could help anyone with getting their costume together.
For ancient Greek clothing:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_in_ancient_Greece
And for ancient Roman clothing:
This thread is for Epicureans in ancient Greece and Rome, focusing on historical events, culture, clothing, and lifestyle (Edit note: 02/21/25 - moved earlier posts into this new thread).
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I found this book "The Invention and Gendering of Epicurus" (when Googling "Epicureans and effeminancy") which looks like it could shed some light on the culture of Epicureans. Though tracking down a library copy might be a bit difficult, unless anyone lives near a good university library.
Description
The school of Greek philosopher Epicurus, which became known as the Garden, famously put great stock in happiness and pleasure. As a philosophical community, and a way of seeing the world, Epicureanism had a centuries-long life in Athens and Rome, as well as across the Mediterranean.
The Invention and Gendering of Epicurus studies how the Garden's outlook on pleasure captured Greek and Roman imaginations—particularly among non-Epicureans—for generations after its legendary founding. Unsympathetic sources from disparate eras generally focus not on historic personages but on the symbolic Epicurean. And yet the traditions of this imagined Garden, with its disreputable women and unmanly men, give us intermittent glimpses of historical Epicureans and their conceptions of the Epicurean life.
Pamela Gordon suggests how a close hearing and contextualization of anti-Epicurean discourse leads us to a better understanding of the cultural history of Epicureanism. Her primary focus is on sources hostile to the Garden, but her Epicurean-friendly perspective is apparent throughout. Her engagement with ancient anti-Epicurean texts makes more palpable their impact on modern responses to the Garden.
Intended both for students and for scholars of Epicureanism and its response, the volume is organized primarily according to the themes common among Epicurus' detractors. It considers the place of women in Epicurean circles, as well as the role of Epicurean philosophy in Homer and other writers.
Pamela Gordon is Chair of the Department of Classics at the University of Kansas and the author of Epicurus in Lycia: The Second-Century World of Diogenes of Oenoanda.
Thank you Don, that was an interesting wikipedia:
Entertainment Weekly said the Kobayashi Maru test is one of the top ten elements of Star Trek with which non-fans are likely to be familiar;[5] writing for Tor, Keith DeCandido said "everyone knows that the Kobayashi Maru refers to a no-win scenario".[6]
...The term has been applied to real-world scenarios with no perceived positive outcome or that requires out-of-the-box thinking, such as climate change,[10] constitutional law,[11] education,[12] and the casting of the Ancient One character in Doctor Strange.[13][14] Commentators have used Kirk's unorthodox answer to the Kobayashi Maru test as an example of the need to redefine the premises upon which an organization operates—changing the rules rather than playing within them.[15][16] Computer security educators have used the Kobayashi Maru to teach students to think like an adversary, and that by stepping outside the rules of the game one can redefine the game.[17] Ideas and products focusing on immersive learning have also been compared to the realistic, immersive nature of the Kobayashi Maru test.
Wondering, do we have a "Kobayashi Maru" situation when it comes to Epicureanism? So perhaps we need to "redefine the rules" -- For Epicurus' ideas to survive, and also our interpretations to survive, we will need to go beyond the scant remaining writings, we will need to thoughly express specific Epicurean interpretations and assertions on modern issues -- and the best way may be to write and publish a book outlining these interpretations.
Also to the tiger example, and Epicurean might say: "What the heck are you doing hanging out around cliffs where tigers are everywhere?"
True!
don't care for hypotheticals
Yes, and this hypothetical story could be interpreted many ways. I see it as dealing with things we can't avoid such as "death and taxes". And dealing with the feeling of fear which might arise at death, and we are not immortal -- and this question: Can you be clear minded enough as you become conscious that your death is imminent? Can you be so awake to the unfolding of every moment that you taste and enjoy whatever delicious things come your way?
Or are we in charge of our lives and moving as aggressively as possible to experience pleasure and avoid pain?
The word "aggressively" conjures up hard work of some kind -- doing hard work to experience pleasure is personally not my cup of tea. The hardest work I think I will ever try to take on for the sake of pleasure will hopefully be sometime in the next three years -- to go on a trip to Greece. I don't travel well (can't sleep on long intercontinental flights) nor adjust to time changes very easily, nor sleep very well in hotels, but I think I am willing to try to make the net result be more pleasureable than the pain that will occur (it may end up being a tie). If there needs to be pain of any kind, it is not for the sake of "looking good" or to appear smart or virtuous, but only as a function of a necessary tool that moves toward pleasure.
Perhaps I have a more delicate constitution than some folks -- too much stress or noise can cause me stomach pains or digestive problems -- I think there is room for all of us under the Epicurean umbrella -- we who are more delicate can root for and applaude the courageous, strong, and daring pleasure-seekers, without needing to apologize or feel guilty or worry about defending our choices and delicate constitutions. 
After this last post by Don, just remembered this Zen story:
A man was walking across a field when he saw a tiger. Fearing for his life, the man fled, but the tiger gave chase. The man reached the edge of a cliff, and just as he thought the tiger would get him, he spotted a vine growing over the edge of the cliff. Grabbing on to it, he swung himself over the edge to safety.
The tiger came to the edge and snarled at him from above. While precariously perched like this, the man saw another tiger growling at him from below. Trembling, he held on to the thin vine that was keeping him from being dinner for the tigers. What could be worse than this, he wondered.
Just then, two mice scampered out and began gnawing at the vine. As they chewed and the man pondered over his fate, he saw a juicy, red strawberry on a ledge next to him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. Ah, how sweet it tasted!
This Zen story always struck me as very different than most Zen stories, as it points toward a the sensual pleasure of taste. It is also a kind of contemplation on mortality. For further reading on this koan click here.
I would say this is a very Epicurean way to deal with death.
This seems like a good Epicurean saying to ponder, regarding the future:
| 41. | One must laugh and seek wisdom and tend to one's home life and use one's other goods, and always recount the pronouncements of true philosophy. |
So as far as "the end of civilization"
Well now I can imagine that there are as many ideas of what this would be like, as there are people -- and also differing ideas of: if or when. And I have my own thoughts as well. I sure hope that I am able to be with good friends, if that great misfortune ever does occur.
I sometimes think that we (in general, in today's world) aren't nearly anxious ENOUGH! We've blinded ourselves with religious-like incantions to endure the anxiety that ought to be there even more than it is now if we fully realized that the train is indeed coming down the track we're standing on.
That "train" being death? --- Or the end of civilization?
Either religion/"new age" self-help, or unnecessary consumerism -- Yet now I realize that unpleasant feelings sometimes help motivate action. But optimistic anxiety (knowing what needs to be done and doing it) may give better results than pessimistic anxiety (giving up/hopelessness). But at what point do you decide to keep "partying" even if the "Titanic" may be sinking?
It takes the support of a trusted friend to know you well enough to offer nuanced advice.
That can sometimes be difficult, as even friends don't fully understand the situation. Or you would need to have wise friends.
I wonder if some kinds of modern therapy or modern psychology can end up being a kind "false medicine"? I ask this question because if the fear of death is not adequately dealt with, then anxiety persists. I discovered recently that my own sister is taking anti-depressants (and yet she is a devout Christian so her religion seems like it isn't helping).
There are many fears in modern life that we must work through, and then the question is: Does Epicurean philosophy help remove the various fears that can arise?
I think that the fear of the future turning out badly is a primary fear among many. We can't enjoy life if we have fears about the future. And now it seems that climate change is a widespread stimulus for fear. The rate of inflation is also a stimulus for fear (especially among retired folks). Fear of future food shortages -- my own family recently sending text message on the family text thread about an egg shortage.
And then also we must think about what is rational, and what is actually true (and not just a news hype). And support each other in maintaining courage to face the unknowns of the future -- so wise friendship is very important.
I found this good post by Elli which highlights the "medicine" of Epicurus, as dealing with removing the fear of God (gods) and the fear of death. And that these two factors are the cause of the other fears which commonly plague the minds of many. If anyone has more to add or further questions, we could start dialog regarding this "Medicine of Epicurus". And I am wondering how hedonic calculus fits in, which normally I see as dealing with making choices in regard to pleasure. Maybe this is simple, or maybe there is more than what meets the eye?
Just two greek words that have the same root and these are the "farmako" which means the <<pill>> and the "farmaki" which means the <<poison>>.
"Frugalix" the newly invented medicine that a doctor gives to all of his patients without to examine the first causes and the details of the causes i.e. the symptoms of each one of his patient's illnesses. And then this doctor thinks that he gave the right farmako=pill that for many will be transformed into farmaki=poison. Sorry, but this one is not a doctor, he is a charlatan.
The letter to Meneoceus has such a strong structure that can't be unstructured by any charlatan because it is in accordance with the right study of Nature and the methodology of the Canon.
First thing first is that when someone has the desire to speak in public for EP, he has to examine what are the first causes that make the people for being greed, unfriendly and consumers without prudence. First, we examine the General Picture that is Nature, then we examine the causes, the details of the causes, the things akin to them and then we speak about the consequences. (see the ending paragraph to Pythocles)
The main causes
Fear of god
Fear of death
some details of the causes
Fear of pain
Fear to accept and withstand the reality
Fear to be responsible
Fear to be free
Fear to give and get on the basis of the common benefit that is the basis of friendship.
Fear or embarrassment to accept finally that pleasure is the goal in life as Nature has set for us.
And the tool/methodology
Ignorance of what is the tool/methodology and how Epicurus uses it for making the hedonic calculation that lead to the liberation of those fears.
The main causes and some details of the causes that make someone to be greed, unfriendly, lonely, harsh, arrogant, depressed and a consumer without prudence and that means also that the selling and buying of useless things is the placebo pill to cover the fear of death that is the most important fear that leads to the vicious circle of the mentioned as above fears that are decoded with behaviors that lead to the incoherence of a society and finally its decadence.
Epicurus in his letter to Meneoceus says to us for what purpose and how we can philosophize. He brings and is connecting all the concepts in real life for being experiences and for not being as abstractions and words without meaning. Then he examines the main causes i.e. the fears, some details of the causes and then he examines the consequences for giving his proposals e.g. the algorithm on the desires that lead the people to the : self-sufficiency that is connected with the right study of Nature that is connected with the generosity that is connected with freedom that is connected with prudence and all these that spring from the inner self that possesses eudaemonia which means that when someone possess eudaemonia he possesses himself i.e. he is FREE and that means also that he is not compromised and subordinated to his masters for living like andrapodo=slave.
And all these according to the circumstances of the experiences in the reality that measured rightly and prudently through the hedonic calculation for leading to the natural goal that is pure pleasure.
ES 49. It is impossible for someone to dispel his fears about the most important matters if he does not know the Nature of the universe but still gives some credence to myths. So without the study of Nature there is no enjoyment of pure pleasure. (see Principle Doctrine 12).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Beauty and virtue and such are worthy of honor, if they bring pleasure; but if not then bid them farewell!
You can find the original post here.
This thread is for food (and food as medicine) in the time of Epicureans in ancient Greece and Rome.
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Regarding honey in ancient times:
In Athens, beekeeping was so organized that the great legislator Solon (640-558 BC) was forced to define by law the distances that should exist between apiaries so as not to create misunderstandings about the ownership of flocks.
They did not have sugar, but they had honey, as part of their diet and medicine.
Some of the ways in which the ancient Greeks used honey in their daily lives were the following:
Acid honey. Honey with vinegar. How to deal with fever.
Apple honey. Apples preserved in honey throughout the year. The honey acquired the characteristic smell of apples. They parsed the same recipe with other fruits.
Mead honey. Liqueur resulting from alcoholic fermentation of honey.
Melikrato. Honey with milk. Food for children.
Wine honey. Honey with wine. It is reported that Democritus lived to a ripe old age because he consumed wine honey with bread.
Hippocrates excludes the beneficial effect of “wine honey” on healthy and sick, Pythagoras finds that honey eliminates fatigue, while Democritus writes about well-being and longevity because of honey.
3- "that Pleasure can be complete when it fills out experience, and thus we don't always need more" (PD3)
There are certain pleasures in which one must take care -- PD3 ought to be combined with PD8 -- especially when eating dessert -- because the bad result doesn't come till later on, after you have eaten too much. At a family gathering today, the adults knew how to apply reason with regard to limiting the quantity of dessert, but my great-nephews and great niece wanted to have third helpings of dessert -- their mom had to tell them they had already had enough.
...sugar also triggers the mesocorticolimbic system, known as the “reward pathway,” in the brain. When we consume sugar, the prefrontal cortex, amygdala, ventral-tegmental area, and nucleus accumbens are stimulated, releasing dopamine. After sugar triggers this system, we’re left craving more, because these parts of the brain are responsible for behavior reinforcement, pleasure-seeking, and addiction, according to a study published in Neuroscience & Biobehavioral Reviews in 2019.
“Epicurus is occasionally described as as a saviour (sōtér) or messenger (kéryx), terms which are also used by Epicureans themselves and are reminiscient of Old Testament expressions. Perhaps such a choice of words was intended as a kind of ‘competitive offer’ to the blossoming Christianity.” (The Cambridge Companion to Epicureanism 53)
The current understanding of the word "saviour" comes to us by the Christian faith in Jesus being eternal/immortal and all powerful. I would doubt Epicureans felt that way about Epicurus. The word "messenger" implies that the message is coming from God (or the gods), but then maybe there was a different understanding of this word back then. Could it be that back in time there were groups of Christian Epicureans, or groups that converted from Christianity to Epicureanism?
Further thought on prayer (and regarding post # 1 of this thread) -- I have a hard time with the idea that Epicureans prayed to the gods "on purpose". And my understanding of the importance of birthdays in Epicureanism is that this could either take the place of sacrifice to the gods, or as a way to establish a ritual which would focus the minds of Epicureans on mortality and friendship -- hey, we are mortal and only live this one life, so let's honor human lives with birthday celebrations, and also friendship being a reason to celebrate birthdays. Can we really know one way or another?
“[P]etitionary prayer to the gods is obviously, for an Epicurean, of no avail; and, indeed, as Epicurus says in his Vatican sayings 65, it is pointless to pray for happiness which a man can provide for himself. If the gods paid attention to human prayers the human race would long since have become extinct since men are continually praying for calamities to fall upon their enemies [...] Yet Epicurus recommend prayer, on the grounds that it is a natural act and that one should also participate in the religious life of one’s country,
Thanks for sharing this about prayer. Now in modern times Christian people are praying for things that they want (and not against enemies). Since I am currently living with and near family, I am often in a "strange situation" in which I have to "pretend" to pray out of kindness and respect to my family. I do feel that there is something about the situation that is parallel to what Epicureans must have encountered. There is something comforting in being clear about my own thoughts on God and death. So I can "pretend pray" without feeling uncomfortable.
Some thoughts regarding the question: "Is there a notion of cultivating "sensitivity" in Epicureanism".
I would say that for myself, I am cultivating the ability to be aware and to reason regarding the nature of pleasure and pain in my body and mind. This would be based on several of the Principle Doctrines.
PD8 -"No pleasure is bad in itself; but the means of paying for some pleasures bring with them disturbances many times greater than the pleasures themselves."
PD29 -"Among desires, some are natural and necesary, some are natural and unnecessary, and some are unnatural and unnecessary (arising instead from groundless opinion).
I've mainly been intrigued with the ideas in Internal Family Systems therapy, where the mind is seen as having a multiplicity of personalities that we engage with in a social way in the therapeutic space (the inner critics, the inner children, ect). The angry inner voices are "entities" we should engage with.
I am not familar with this therapy, nor the others you mention.
You might like to look into the writings of Philodemus "On Anger". I haven't studied it, but Don has, and could point to threads or material to read.
Some further thoughts -- Modern therapy is very different than Epicureanism, and according to this Wikipedia article on psychotherapy, is thought to have begun in 1879. And now there are many new therapies, which may not be "evidence based". I hold a materialist and scientific understanding of the world, and so personally I would avoid any therapy which is not scientifically tested. Here is a website explaining evidence based therapy.
I got a lot of pleasure and a settled mind in doing the work,
That sounds great! So if you find it is helpful and leads to more enjoyment (and less pain) that sounds like it is good for you. We each find pleasure in many different ways. Others here on the forum have other avenues in which they seek pleasure. Life really presents a "smorgasbord" of pleasure, we just need to open up to it. 
