Posts by Kalosyni

Happy Birthday SimonC !!!

May you be filled with many blessings of pleasure and joy!

I find this thread discussion to be very enjoyable, and important for a correct understanding of Epicureanism. Without thoroughly understanding these issues it will be difficult to begin to create local Epicurean groups. Also, for reasons that come up in Smoothiekiwi post...

Quote from smoothiekiwi

....biggest problem is to accept that there isn't any sort of abstract ideas flying around- universal norms and ideas. Platonism is so deeply anchored in our society that it's incredibly difficult to let it go....dogmas, absolute "right and wrong"-s etc. Just today, I had a discussion with my brother, who postulated that it's in the nature of each and every person to become better.

Epicureanism exists with it's unique principles and paradigms in the midst of all previous philosophical constructs, and part of the work is sifting through it all to become very clear about what Epicureanism is.

I think it will be difficult to establish local groups. A person must be predisposed to certain traits or habits or predispositions in order to be interested in Epicureanism...and I think that in our given times few people will be drawn toward Epicureanism...but does that mean we should give up? I am still moving forward with hope on this, that it will be possible. And this brings up the question of what sorts of traits/habits/predispositions must be present for a person to be interested in engaging with Epicurean philosophy? (a separate thread for this?).

In the few most recent posts in this thread are important Epicurean ideas, and these ideas need to be collected and put into small books (or zines) which we can give to people that we think possess the traits required for Epicurean philosophy.

Another idea comes up -- the need for "levels" within Epicureanism (a separate thread for this?)

1) "Epicureanism lite" - for people with less time or inclination to study

2) "Epicureanism engaged" - for people who want to put in serious study

3) "Epicurean guardians and guides" - for people who want to maintain the accuracy of the teachings and teach others

Quote from Cassius

I have always realized that the word "happiness" and even "pleasure" to a degree are conceptual abstractions. The word 'happiness' almost definitely is so, and we find "happiness" being used in totally different ways by different people, so much so that it takes fairly elaborate definition-building to be clear what we're talking about.

This is very important to think about. Happiness is always about a "story" that you are telling yourself. And it includes stories about the past and about the future, as well as the present moment. In Epicureanism, it includes ideas about the best way to bring about a happy life, and think we would all be on the same page to say that we know it can't be found in material possessions. But the "stories" we tell ourselve about our level(s) of happiness, are based on experiences that have a feeling tone of either generally pleasureable or generally painful. Of course life is a mix of feelings, but as Epicureans we hold to a goal of mainly pleasureable experiences which we would then label as "happiness".

This morning as I write this, I notice...Oh what a difference a solid good night of sleep makes! As well as a sunny morning with crystal blue skies! But there is still more than these simple pleasures to discover and cultivate in Epicureanism.

Everyone's comments here are so helpful, and for myself I will continue to contemplate these issues of pleasure, pain, happiness, and virtue.

I just found this interesting article...which says: "Take sleep problems seriously" as poor sleep quality could lead to future depression:

Quote

Take sleep problems seriously.

You should tell your doctor if you:

• have trouble falling or staying asleep
• feel tired during the day
• have physical pain, discomfort or other complaints (for instance, signs of obstructive sleep apnea or pauses in breathing at night) that prevent you from getting a good night’s sleep

Treatments such as cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia and continuous positive airway pressure (CPAP) devices for apnea can restore good sleep, helping you sidestep related conditions like depression. (People with sleep apnea have a fivefold higher risk of depression.)

Depression and Sleep: Understanding the Connection

People with insomnia have a higher risk of depression. On the other hand, depression can trigger sleep problems. Knowing the connection between depression and…

www.hopkinsmedicine.org

I am trying to "unpack" Aristotle's perfectionistic and absolutist way of thinking, because I was raised in Christianity which has been a continued source of this kind of thinking (and may have left-over "brain-wiring" from that).

Modern English would use different words in some instances. I think what I find unnerving is the labeling and the use of judging which doesn't take into account the specific situation. Also, it doesn't take into account the "feeling" of things. For example: fear is judged as a defect, yet fear is a normal emotion which helps keep us alive, and we feel it very viscerally when our life is in danger. Yet, in marches the concept of "courage" to convince us that it is good to risk our lives for some abstract ideals that someone else has convinced us is correct. So these ideals can be used to manipulate people. I would like to suggest that an Epicurean would rarely need to force the virtue of courage, even when it is for the sake of pleasure, because they would very rarely take on something risky (but I may have differing beliefs on this than others here on the forum).

I made this table based on the Nicomachean Ethics source provided above by Eikadistes. I left some boxes empty due to not being listed in the source.

Quote from smoothiekiwi

A toxic environment is far, far worse for a child than a divorce.

Yes I agree. If it sounded as if I thought differently, then it was probably due to my poor writing skills which made it confusing, and apologize for that. Divorce would most likely be best in cases of physical or mental abuse, substance abuse or addiction, and anger management issues. If these aren't present, and one has children, then staying together may be okay.

Quote from Cassius

It's probably true that in some significant number of cases an unhappy marriage can be hidden from the children so that they are not as affected as they would be by divorce. I would dress "sometimes" and that we have another situation where it depends on details and "always" isn't going to apply.

I have a old out-of-state friend, who a while back, told me that he is staying in a unhappy and sexless marriage because he says he doesn't want another man becoming a step-father to his daughter and raising her. It is his second marriage and he became a father later in life...I also suspect that he may think that it would take too much effort to divorce and try to find a new partner later in life...as well as deal with the financial hardship that would come with divorce.

First of all you must trust your own sense of bodily feeling, for if you disregard what you feel, how will you know what you should do? (What is the Epicurean saying on this?)

So then the question is: How does your body feel? If your body feels okay then no problem.

But if the body feels bad...then over the long term, feelings of tireness in the body are going to have detrimental health affects. And I have researched this...there are some studies that say poor sleep quality affects brain health.

Every person will have their unique situation to deal with...

Here are some possible causes:

1) Noisy sleep environment, uncomfortable bed/room temperature, or too much ambient room light during the night

2) Emotional worries over problems, life decisions, or unfinished work

3) Napping during the day - this perpetuates the night time sleep problems

4) Going to bed too early or having inconsistent bedtimes

5) Too much blue light from computer screens or tv screens in the evening hours

6) Not getting adequate bodily movement (exercise)

I have quite a bit of experience with sleep deprivation. For myself: generally one or two nights of poor sleep are okay for me, if they are then followed by a few nights of better sleep...as long as my body can recover. But when longer stretches of poor sleep occur, I notice that it is harder for me to want to exercise and I all eat more calories due to carb cravings. For me it can be environmental noise which wakes me, or emotional stress wakes me sometimes when nights are quiet. Then when it is a combination of these two problems it can be a real problem. I once went through a two week stretch of poor sleep...and my body felt very ill from lack of sleep.

Human beings were originally hunters and gatherers on the move and at some point the psyche might benefit from moving to a new environment. One way to deal with this without actually moving is to rearrange the bedroom layout and to see in what ways it can be made to be more cozy (and also the entire house to remove clutter and improve comfort).

I've read that there shouldn't be bookshelves or tv's (nor computers) in the bedroom -- it should be designed and maintained for sleep only, so no other activities (other than sex) should occur in the bedroom. Also that means it might be good to find a comfortable place other than the bedroom for middle of the night reading.

When awake in the middle of the night do relaxing things, sit still and breath calmly.

Eat a very small middle of the night snack - something with carbs - bread, cereal, or yogurt.

Journaling in the middle of the night can be a way to deal with worries over problems or unfinished work - write it all out and/or make lists - then close the notebook and say "Okay I can set this aside now since I've written it all out and can put it out of my mind. I take a vacation from it now. I will come back to it tomorrow."

After you set down your notebook... Do slow deep breathing while laying still in bed...that has a certain quality of a slow rise and fall (it has a sound quality of air flow which could be described as the sound of air when a child is slowly swinging up and down on a swing-set). In some cases even if you are awake, this kind of laying still in bed and deep breathing can be restorative.

Perhaps it is a litmus test for extravagant tastes that are never satisfied.

Vatican Sayings:

Quote from Cassius

In regard to what Kalosyni's comment on always looking for new restaurants being an indicator of marriage failure (kind of funny even to say that)

More specifically the personality trait of extoversion and "adventurism":

Quote

high extroversion can undermine relationships because it is associated with adventurism. A 2008 study by David Schmidt involving more than 13,000 participants in 46 countries found high extroversion to be “positively correlated with interest in short-term mating, unrestricted sociosexuality, having engaged in short-term mate poaching attempts, having succumbed to short-term poaching attempts of others, and lacking relationship exclusivity.”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/insigh…r-romantic-life

Quote from smoothiekiwi

I can agree with that- but doesn't every human being possesses these traits at least in some quantity? where would you draw the line of "that's enough"?

I also completely agree that these traits help you to live happily- that's extremely important. But when will you stop seeking and being content with the possible partner you have? Pure hedonistic calculus?

The question of...how do you know if someone will make a good life partner?

There are certain personality traits that lead to better outcomes in marriage...conscientiousness and agreeableness:

Quote

Conscientiousness and Agreeableness

As might be expected, high levels of conscientiousness and agreeableness predict relationship satisfaction, in part because these traits signify low impulsivity and high interpersonal trust, respectively.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/insigh…r-romantic-life

And the personality trait of neuroticism is negatively correlated with marriage satisfaction:

Quote

By a broad (and rare) scholarly consensus, neuroticism is the personality trait most strongly predictive of a person’s romantic destiny. High neuroticism is uniformly bad news in this context. For example, in 1987 University of Michigan researchers Lowell Kelly and James Connelly published a study that followed 300 married couples over 30 years. The neuroticism of one spouse predicted dissatisfaction in marriage and divorce. Adding insult to injury, research has also shown that high neuroticism predicts low resilience post-divorce.

Neuroticism appears to interfere with relationship satisfaction in multiple ways. By definition, neurotic individuals tend to be highly reactive to stress and prone to experiencing negative emotions. These tendencies are likely to radiate onto the partner and create problems over time.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/insigh…r-romantic-life

Should you stay with your partner or leave them to find someone better?

There is no reason to stay in a bad relationship unless you already have children. Especially if the relationship is toxic, that would be a good reason to end it for the sake of protecting the children...physical or mental abuse, substance abuse or addiction, and anger management issues. And when there are children, then going to a therapist to improve the relationship would be a good idea, and would also help determine if the relationship can be mended or if the couple should separate or divorce.

If there are no children, then it comes down to a "prudent calculus" and also if the couple is willing to put work into improving the relationship.

Quote from Godfrey

Trying to remove the pain always causes me to focus even more on the pain, whereas acknowledging the pain and pursuing pleasure has led me to much better outcomes. Often it might be just taking "baby steps" of agency, little nibbles of pleasure leading toward a larger meal.

Focusing on the problem makes the pain more observable also. It's important to see that if one just launches into pursuing pleasure then there is a chance that is it just a temporary "band-aid"...although there could be a place for this in some situations.

Speaking of "nibbles of pleasure leading toward a larger meal"...the food analogy brings up a common problem of using food to cope with mental pain, especially fun foods and treats, which will result in weight gain and health problems down the road.

There is the need to address the root cause of the mental pain, or you may end up not ending the pain, as well as developing some kind of addiction to mask the pain.

So first analyze the situation and to find the best way to remove pain, then add in pleasure into that mode...the medicine of removing pain may be bitter, but make sure to also add some honey to the rim of the glass.

In a best case scenario, I can imagine an Epicurean community in which everyone lived in the same city or nearby, and we could help each other out...and this would be similar to Christian church communites such a "barn raisings" etc.

To state this question in the opposite order:

Is the motivation to remove pain the same as the motivation to pursue pleasure?

I think that there are differences, and the differences will create different outcomes.

For example, if I want to remove the mental pain of loneliness, how does this compare with the goal of seeking the pleasure of friends?

The framing of the problem is different in seeking pleasure vs removal of pain.

If we start with the uncomfortable feelings of mental pain and then ask how to remove them, then we might arrive at a list of possible ways to remove the pain...one option of which is to seek the pleasure of friendship.

Once we have determined that this is the best option to remove the pain of loneliness, then we must switch to a "pleasure optimising" goal...which would answer the question: "How can I best find the pleasure of friends?"

This seeking of pleasure will then lead to more and better options for ending the mental pain of loneliness.

We use a "short-cut" when we study Epicureanism, Principle Doctrine 27:

I am curious to hear other's thoughts on pursuit of pleasure vs. removal of pain, ...do these appear the same or different?

Quote from Scott

Pretty much everyone in this EF forum understands that EP gets a bad rap from mainstream culture, and has ever since Stoics and Christians and similar "transcendent value" ethics have held sway. An (abbreviated) version of the most common critical narrative goes something like this:

*Epicureanism is about hedonism, which means they pursue pleasure instead of the (grander) {virtue/deity worship/other abstract/transcendent values/value systems}. Chasing after pleasures is shallow, unreliable and dangerous to oneself and society.*

Challenging this narrative is difficult, at best. Arguing that going after pleasure as your final goal makes more sense than going after abstract transcendent values ("ATVs" lol ) as a final goal is an uphill battle. As Cassius said in the thread on Eusebius: "Christians and most of the rest of the world think that Epicureans are monsters. Or that Epicurus was an Antichrist even. This is why we can't get too complacent and think that "everyone wants to be happy" means the same thing to everyone."

I think there is two parts to "abstract transcendent values":

1) Religion and religious values -- worshipping, placating, petitioning a "creator God" which requires one to set aside one's own personal pleasure to ensure that "God is pleased"...and so that one can go to heaven after death).

2) Cultural values of "perfection" / "continual improvement" / "new/better innovations" -- these are threatened by the pursuit of pleasure...one's own pleasure must be set aside for these goals. For example, pursuing the perfection of a virtuoso violinist, a prima ballerina, or an olympic champion -- these take tremendous discipline and self-sacrifice. And within technology and medicine -- the goal of continually making improvements to make things better and safer, or to elieviate suffering of illness and prevent death...personal pleasure could be seen as getting the way of the kind of hard work required for innovation.

So Epicureanism will always be at odds with these.

The "golden mean" implies some kind of perfection, yet perfection is an artificial and abstract idea that doesn't exist in the real world "messiness" of humans. Humans are not mathematical equations.

Quote from Nate

Epicurus' pursuit of pleasure is distinguished from Aristotle's pursuit of excellence. Aristotle thought that an excellent person would necessarily enjoy happiness, whereas Epicurus recognized that an excellent person is only "happy" when enjoying the fruits of their excellence. Excellence, itself, is not the motivating goal. Pleasure is the goal.

There is something so liberating in Epicurus teaching, because being liberated from the "pursuit of excellence" opens one up to true freedom. But still one would wonder...do we still admire people in their pursuit of excellence?

What makes the world "messy" is that things are in flux, and exist in a state of continual change, though some things change so slowly we can't easily see the changes happening. And this messiness is also is why we can't make absolute rules about things.

Quote from Cassius

And taken on that broad level, I don't think there is a way under the Epicuran view of nature that such a mechanism could function. As "golden mean" is frequently used, the result is a word game implying that it is generally possible to solve problems by looking for extremes, and (so to speak) adding them together and dividing by two. I don't think Epicurus would say that the world works that way in regard to pleasure or anything else either.

So we have to instead function in an intuitive way, using our senses to re-access a given situation, prodded by the feeling of wanting what is enjoyable, and combined with a "prudent-calculus" as to what will lead to long-term well-being.

Quote from smoothiekiwi

I think that most of the stuff you've mentioned is a model of a "perfect partner".

Okay...then not so much as possessing the qualities perfectly, but rather at some level, and also able to improve, otherwise marriage will be a difficult experience and end up in divorce.

Also, I read this somewhere in the past...people who have a drive for extreme novelty...they make bad marriage partners. You'll be able to judge this trait in the way that people enjoy eating because they will be the ones who are continually seeking out new restuarants to try...so eventually they will lose interest in the "comfort sex" of marriage.

The above list I wrote is just some ideas about why it is difficult to be happy in marriage...because there are so many variables. And there could be other variables that I left out.

Statistics show that better educated people tend to be less likely to divorce, and one would hope that they would be happier in their marriages. Perhaps this is because their intelligence and emotional stability leads to a better "hedonic calculus" (or "prudent calculus") during the initial dating process...being better able to vet out their dating choices, before coming to find a life partner.

The quality of one's marriage has such an influence on whether one lives pleasantly and pleasurably...so it is paramount to choose well.

It seems to me that the word "pity" in the past had a different shade of meaning than what it has now, as we can see from Don, in the Tolkien excerpt above.

Here is an excerpt the end of chapter 2 of "A Few Days in Athens" ...the word pity in the very last sentence.

Quote

[Time] "as he leads us gently onwards in the path of life, demonstrates to us many truths that we never heard in the schools, and some that, hearing there, we found hard to receive. Our knowledge of human life must be acquired by our passage through it; the lessons of the sage are not sufficient to impart it. Our knowledge of men must be acquired by our own study of them; the report of others will never convince us. When you, my son, have seen more of life, and studied more men, you will find, or, at least, I think you will find, that the judgment is not false which makes us lenient to the failings — yea! even to the crimes of our fellows. In youth, we act on the impulse of feeling, and we feel without pausing to judge. An action, vicious in itself, or that is so merely in our estimation, fills us with horror, and we turn from its agent without waiting to listen to the plea which his ignorance could make to our mercy. In our ripened years, supposing our judgment to have ripened also, when all the insidious temptations that misguided him, and all the disadvantages that he has labored under, perhaps-from his birth, are apparent to us — it is then, and not till then, that our indignation at the crime is lost in our pity of the man.”

Quote from Cassius

As in some other current threads where we are discussing pain and pleasure, I don't think that Epicurus was unrealistic about pain: pain is required in order to live to any degree, and more pain is often required for more pleasure. So while "Absence of disturbance" and "absence of pain" are goals in the Epicurean system, they are not in themselves the ultimate goal or the highest goal. PLEASURE trumps both of those, and we can and do accept some degree of both disturbance and pain in order to achieve the pleasures we want in life.

Posing the question in this way really exhibits - in my view - how terrible a mistake it is to postulate ataraxia and aponia as the highest goods rather than pleasure. (And I will add that it makes it worse to leave them untranslated, because that makes it harder for newer people to understand what really is being discussed.) When you make it clear what is involved, it seems to me that it's easy to see that OF COURSE the avoidance of disturbance and the avoidance of pain do not trump all other considerations. Over and over Epicurus makes that clear, and in those situations where it can be argued that he seems to be saying something else, you override that interpretation by looking to the foundations and the full context of the philosophy, and adopt a construction that is consistent with both

The pain that is taken on should be in service to long-term pleasure...so if marriage over-all turns out to be 50/50, then it is a tough call. Having been married I would say that the pleasure was high in the early years, and much lower in the later years. The reason that I divorced was because it at times became unbearable with no hope for reconciling the irreconcilable differences.

I begin to think that marriage is going to be difficult unless both people possess certain characteristics. Here is my "recipe" for a happy marriage, both people must have:

1) superb negotiation skills

2) high emotional intelligence

3) very grounded in reasoned thinking and general intelligence

4) highly co-operative and generous dispositions

5) a people-centered approach to life (hold people as more important than ideas or objects)

6) a shared worldview and goals in life

Quote from smoothiekiwi

I see the concept of marriage as... strange. I understand that there may be many advantages- I immediately think of security.

As far as security, there is also long-term committed co-habitation, as there are some people who do stay together for many years without being legally married (but this may be a low number).

In any long-term relationship there is the main benefit of sexuality -- especially during the ages of 30's and 40's...married people have more sex (unless they are in an unhappy marriage).

Married people also tend to do better financially when both are adequately employed and they can then afford to buy a home.

In marriage there is the benefit of companionship. A married couple might move one or more times during their lifetime, or might lose some of their friends due to changes in employment. The couple stays together no matter if employment requires relocation, and so the long-term companionship gives a continuity. Also during retirement and in the later part of life, the companionship is very important.

Pity is looking down at someone and creates an "object" divorced from feeling, whereby we need not do anything to help.

Compassion is caring and consideration for another in a way that sees the fullness of their humanity. If for some reason, we turn away from the feeling of compassion, then we turn also away from our own self, so that we then lose our ability to be self-compassionate.

It is only when hope leads to inaction that it is an "evil".

With the right hopeful attitude we can carry on in life...otherwise difficult times become unbearable if there is no hope for taking action to create change or improve the situation.

So within Epicureanism, there is the great importance of friendship, and within friendship there is the great importance of acting with compassion toward one's friends, as compassion would bring the greatest pleasure within friendship interactions.

I think it would be good to more clearly define the word "compassion" as an active attitude rather than a passive attitude. So speaking and acting with cordiality, kindness, consideration, respect, patience, acceptance, candor, and caring.