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I am really enjoying this thread!! (and I need to re-read from beginning to end, as may have missed reading a few entries). For me all of this discussion is the basis of well-being and happiness. And we can see what Epicurus may or may not have said. And we can also apply all of this in a practical way.

For example, yesterday I had a wonderful lunch with a good friend and I felt both very satisfied and also that I had eaten more than what I needed (and so felt overly full). But then not too much later after that, the idea of getting ice cream came to me, but I waited a few hours before getting some. The pleasure of the ice cream lasted only a short time, and then I felt too full again. So what was this craving, I wondered. Then I wondered if eating ice cream was a way to try to deal with any feelings of uncertainty, or was is boredom?

I have to say that for me, I am starting to see how eating just enough to relieve hunger provides a sense of well-being that "feels better" and "lasts longer" than eating when you aren't really hungry.

Quote from Cassius

Everyone would intuitively want the longer portion, so what Epicurus is doing is showing a way of looking at the issue that satisfies us that we are not missing anything new and categorically different by not having the longer time....

...This is something that a pig cannot do, but also something that does not appear (to us) to bother the pig. We have the need for the analysis only because it bothers us if we don't.

This to me points to some deeper ideas that I would love to get into, however I am short on time today so will have to come back to this later. I would say that if anyone closely observes the nature and experience of pleasure over time, then it will make sense.

@Nate, for some reason my tablet doesn't want to open the second two images. You might have better software for making graphics -- can you make this pig white with a yellow circle behind it?

Quote from Cassius

I would also like a graphic version that can be added to the right-hand panel of graphics, probably right underneath the explanation of the EpicureanFriends logo. Something that looks like a flag, perhaps incorporating a circle or other reference to the sun

Quote from Cassius

The young animal is in an innocent state of nature and has not yet learned the fears and hatreds that cause pain in human life.

And pigs have no thumbs

I could create a graphic, will see what I can come up with

"All pleasures seem to involve the same hedonic brain systems" -- that would support PD 9.

Ha, I didn't get to the end of that article yet to see if it says anything about importance of meaning (but "Divine fire" would probably fall into that category).

Hi Philliped1 and welcome to the forum.

You wrote that you have peace of mind now, but yet friends, family, and society seem to suggest that singleness isn't "normal", and then this causes you to question if you are missing out on something -- even though in the past you were in several long-term relationships.

When it comes to either being single or in a relationship, I think Epicureanism would say that it would simply be a matter of personal preference. If you are happier being single than that sounds great, and maybe it is more about knowing how to handle what other people's perspectives or opinions are about being in a relationship?

Relationships can be difficult at times, and can take effort, but they should bring more pleasure than pain, and when too much pain arises then there are underlying causes which could be worked through with the help of a therapist. From the time we are born, we all learn about love from our parents and how they interacted with us (the mother-child bond) and with each other (read this about attachment theory).

You might find this very long thread on romantic love of interest:

Post

An Epicurean Understanding of Valentine's Day: Love, Romance, and Free-will

Valentine's Day is one month away...how do we make sense of romance and love within the "Epicurean worldview". Is romantic love in direct opposition of the wisdom of free-will?

[…]

Diogenes Laertius :

Book 10, Sections 84-154

"They do not think that the wise man will ever be in love, nor that he will be anxious about his burial, nor that love is a passion inspired by the gods, as Diogenes says in his twelfth book. They also assert that he will be indifferent to the study of oratory. Intercourse,…

Kalosyni

January 16, 2022 at 1:19 AM

I just started reading this article "Neuroscience of Happiness and Pleasure" and here is an excerpt:

Quote

The available evidence suggests that brain mechanisms involved in fundamental pleasures (food and sexual pleasures) overlap with those for higher-order pleasures (for example, monetary, artistic, musical, altruistic, and transcendent pleasures) (Kringelbach 2010).

From sensory pleasures and drugs of abuse to monetary, aesthetic and musical delights, all pleasures seem to involve the same hedonic brain systems, even when linked to anticipation and memory. Pleasures important to happiness, such as socializing with friends, and related traits of positive hedonic mood are thus all likely to draw upon the same neurobiological roots that evolved for

sensory pleasures. The neural overlap may offer a way to generalize from fundamental pleasures that are best understood and so infer larger hedonic brain principles likely to contribute to happiness.

 

The Neuroscience of Happiness and Pleasure

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

beasain, Mathitis Kipouros, and Cassius -- I am now re-reading these threads a bit more closely and am seeing that it might be good to construct some kind of a table or graphic which might show that actually there is evidence in Epicurean teachings for both a "just enough pleasure" and a "full cup of pleasure". All of this has come up before and it really would be good to have it all layed out clearly. Seeing it in a table or graphic form could also make it easier for when future questions arise. Also, a table might have several different columns to compare and contrast, and give evidence for or against.

Quote from Cassius

Even at risk of forever disqualifying yourself from the world of Modern Stoicism????

Yes

The Stoics would say that Epicureans are only friends for purposes of utility, but that isn't true.

VS 23: Every friendship is an excellence in itself, even though it begins in mutual advantage.

Clearly in friendship there is also a risk of pain, in if your friend moves away or dies you will feel the pain of the loss of that friendship. But I see the "Epicurean Garden" is a place of many friends. So then that would be a consolation, as one is surrounded by more than just one friend.

Quote from camotero

B. After eliminating pain, all pleasures beyond this limit, are embellishments. Embellishment pleasures are great! Try to experience as most as you can (carefully calculating not to produce more pain for you down the line). Let these guide your life if you want even, but keep in mind the following point.

C. The limit of pleasure has been met. All of these embellishments don't add up more pleasure to your life. You won't experience them after you're dead, and you certainly won't take any memories of them to an afterlife. The maximum natural quanitity of pleasure has been obtained when you eliminated all the pain, so if you want to stay at that, IT'S OK! If you want to go for more embellishments, IT'S OK! Just be weary of the slippery slope of wanting more of something that won't add more pleasure and may become a source of much pain.

Quote from Cassius

I find that there are basically two camps:

Camp One - People who focus on the "absence of pain" passages and conclude that "avoid all pain to the extent possible" is the supreme guide of Epicurean philosophy, without regard to the pleasure that is thereby forgone.

Camp Two:. People who focus on "pleasure" as that term is ordinarily understood, embracing all forms of mental and physical enjoyment, and who conclude that the correct statement of the primary guide is that pleasure is the focus and is to be pursued so long as we ourselves deem the resulting feeling of pleasure to be worth the cost in pain needed to obtain it.

Everyone has different tolerances for pain, and different valuations of pleasure, so it's really impossible to make the generic statement of Camp Two more precise than that. There is no absolute set of pleasures always to pursue or pains always to avoid.

I would like to propose that friendship is a pleasure which every Epicurean should cultivate.

PD 27: Of all the things that wisdom provides for the complete happiness of one's entire life, by far the greatest is friendship.

VS 52: Friendship dances around the world, announcing to each of us that we must awaken to happiness.

In our modern world when we are all so short on time it might seem that friendship is an embellishment, but I would say that friendship is not an embellishment. One certainly could live as a hermit free from pain, but would be much lacking in the joy that comes with engaging and spending time with a good friend or friends. And it must be cultivated -- finding good friends, making time, and also behaving in an enjoyable way toward each other -- choosing enjoyable things to talk about, finding humor and fun and sharing fun activities. The feelings of friendship are far deeper and surpass the simple enjoyments of food, music, etc. of the simple physical sensations.

Hi Everyone, Join us again this Wednesday at 8:30pm ET

PD 11 -- If we were not troubled by our suspicions of the phenomena of the sky and about death, fearing that it concerns us, and also by our failure to grasp the limits of pains and desires, we should have no need of natural science.

PD 12-- A man cannot dispel his fear about the most important matters if he does not know what is the nature of the universe but suspects the truth of some mythical story. So that without natural science it is not possible to attain our pleasures unalloyed.

-- An example of Greek myths: The Earth on Fire: A Weather Folklore - The ancient Greeks created an elaborate myth to explain heat waves and droughts.

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Quote from Cassius

Maybe it's just me but I see quite a difference between the two approaches

Yes, for many reasons there really is a big difference. The strong emphasis in Epicureanism on choices and avoidances, and personal responsibility leads to a much better outcome, I think.

If a person ends up repeatedly chanting that desire, aversion, and ignorance are inexhaustable (by nature), then they are in a sense giving away their power and also stating a distrust in the ability of the mind to reason correctly.

Quote from Root304

We are taking it more from a sense of play and community, and trying to be inclusive of what expression our Friends want to bring to the occassion. Our "magic" consisted of writing an intention on a bay leaf and tossing it in the fire.

Okay thank you for clarifying, because when I saw your post # 36 above end with the word "religion" then I got a bit of a tense feeling. So now I understand a little better and sounds like it is a creation of psychological symbolism used as a tool for self-exploration and self-knowledge.

And also I will again remember to consider how everyone has their unique and individual way of moving toward an enjoyable and pleasurable life.

Quote from Root304

...lots of fun reciting some words, building a fire, doing some simple witchery and leaving offerings and libations out. ....So I'm going to build a festival calendar around Eikas, intermixed with Solstices and Equinoxes, and draw from folklore traditions and what other things might interest my community of Friends to build a sort of hearth religion.

This sounds interesting, a very eclectic take that you created for your own enjoyment.

And yet when you say "witchery" does this include some Wiccan hopes that one can influence the material world in a supernatural way? In my own studies of Wicca, I have come to see it as "the other side of the coin" with regard to Christianity. Both believe that there is a supernatural essence which can be influenced - one through prayer to God, the other through ritual and worship dedicated to pagan Goddesses (and perhaps somewhat similar to Ancient Greek religion).

Yet Epicurus teaches that the gods live in bliss and have no concern for man. The world is material, and nothing can come from nothing.

Imagine in Epicurus' time, that he was surrounded on all sides by people who believed in the myths and the power of the gods. I can see why he would continue to participate in the rituals for several reasons: 1) because there was pleasure in the festivals, and 2) he would have gotten a lot flak from everyone around him (non-Epicureans) if he hadn't participated in the rituals.

In some sense the only parallel here is that if you are Epicurean and you find yourself surrounded by Christians family members, then perhaps you might join in with them by bowing your head during prayer before meals.

Now personally, I would hesitate to create any new rituals to Greek or other pagan gods/goddesses, as fun as it could be -- there is not any necessity and it creates "supernatural" ideations.

Thank you Don for your translation of the PD last night, I don't know if we have your translation on the forum somewhere?

What sticks in my mind is the importance of the phrase "if they taught the limits of desires [and of pains]..." (they being the pleasures of the profligate).

That bit about pains in brackets is not in every translation above, which I find interesting.

Also this morning I was reflecting on how the idea of the limits of desires is very different from the idea within Zen Buddhism that desires are inexhaustible. It is almost as if this Epicurean principle is an quick and reasonable short-cut to liberation -- no long hours of meditation are required. But yet what is required is some contemplation, and I still intend to study and "sit" with this (in a contemplative sense) till I get to fully understand what the "limits of desire" are (and may post more on that soon).

I discovered this article yesterday, and now I see it already has a thread on the forum thanks to Don.

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2021/01/how-balance-hard-work-and-pleasure-happiness/617847/

Quote from Don

It's not a matter of balance. "Virtues" are instrumental.

That the virtues are instrumental is important to think about for anyone reading the article.

Also, we can see some of the popularized, over-simplified, and incorrect ideas about Epicureanism -- it claims Epicureans are seeking a happy life based on freedom from mental disturbance and absence of physical pain -- yet when we see the big picture through study of the entire Epicurean teachings, then we see that this not the full story -- we are also intentionally moving toward pleasure and enjoyment.

The article implies that Epicureans aren't seeking meaning in life -- but I would say that for myself I am finding meaning in studying Epicureanism and helping others study Epicureanism, as well as reclaiming pleasure as the goal of life and helping others do so as well -- so once again it is that the virtues are instrumental toward pleasure and happiness.

I found this on summer solstice festivals:

Quote

Ancient Greeks

According to certain iterations of the Greek calendar—they varied widely by region and era—the summer solstice was the first day of the year. Several festivals were held around this time, including Kronia, which celebrated the agriculture god Cronus. The strict social code was temporarily turned on its head during Kronia, with slaves participating in the merriment as equals or even being served by their masters. The summer solstice also marked the one-month countdown to the opening of the Olympic games.

Ancient Romans

In the days leading up to the summer solstice, ancient Romans celebrated the Vestalia festival, which paid tribute to Vesta, the goddess of the hearth. Rituals included the sacrifice of an unborn calf remove from its mother’s womb. This was the only time of the year when married women were allowed to enter the sacred temple of the vestal virgins and make offerings to Vesta there.

Source

Quote from Cassius

Yes I think Don's answer applies in most cases in the last comment. But I am not sure it is a good idea for us to take the "everyone pursues pleasure whether they admit it or not" too far. Some people do seem to choose pain for the sake of pain, under the influence of warped thinking. EG - "I am a worm and I deserved to be squashed by God.".

Not sure about the "worm deserving to be squashed" -- that sounds like someone who feels "guilty for their sins", which in my book is whole other issue coming out of Christianity.

There is the saying: "No pain, no gain":

From Wikipedia:

"No pain, no gain (or "No gain without pain") is a proverb, used since the 1980s as an exercise motto that promises greater value rewards for the price of hard and even painful work. Under this conception competitive professionals, such as athletes and artists, are required to endure pain (physical suffering) and stress (mental/emotional suffering) to achieve professional excellence. Medical experts agree that the proverb is wrong for exercise."

And then from a mental side: "no growth without pain" and the belief that achieving success requires pain. This could occassionally be true. But what kind of success is this for anyway? "cutthroat marketing" or generating the highest profits, not for pleasure but for big money.

And this is all about an either/or -- either pleasure or pain -- which is incorrect because it leaves out the option of engaging in pleasureable exercise -- or pleasureable work which isn't focused on hugh profit.

Quote from Matteng

Beside the pure sense-pleasures, I value for example that:

-I am not addicted to something/someone

-value friends/familiy, progress in society,

-have compassiong for humans and animals

-love to learn new things and philosophy (like Epicurus), learning about nature, value/ like to improve abilities.

Are that "pleasures of the soul" ?

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Quote from Cassius

If something brings you a feeling OF ANY KIND then the feeling is ultimately pleasurable or painful. All human mental and physical activities fall in one of these two categories, no matter how much the abstractionists want to protest that their virtues are higher than pleasure.

Good questions Matteng. And both Don and Cassius, I am enjoying reading your replies, and I'd like to throw in this into the mix:

From the Letter to Menoeceus:

"Third, keep in mind that some desires are natural whereas others are groundless [note]; that among the natural desires some are natural and necessary whereas others are merely natural; and that among the necessary desires some are necessary for happiness, some for physical health [note], and some for life itself."

To illustrate what is unnecessary: This morning I was offered a chocolate covered cream filled donut (because my sister bought an entire box yesterday). Yet I have been slowly gaining weight (and I do not want to go out an buy new bigger pants). So I am choosing to reduce my sugar intake. I acknowledged my desire when I said "yes, those do look good" and then, acknowledged the recognition that the donut was unnecessary when I said: "but no thank you" as I had already in mind to choose to eat unsweetened oatmeal with some strawberries. I made this choice for the sake of physical health. Good health is both a pleasure and a value.

What is unnecessary is that which is either not needed for long-term enjoyment/happiness and/or that which brings pain as a long-term result.

It up to each person to make wise choices about what for themselves is "necessary vs unnecessary" and we might each make different choices depending on our circumstances. There are some PDs which do point out important pleasures, such as PD27 --"Of all the things that wisdom provides for the complete happiness of one's entire life, by far the greatest is friendship."

And I would say friendship is both a pleasure and a value. It brings both physical and mental joy. And Letter to Menoeceus ends with: "So practice these and similar things day and night, by yourself and with a like-minded friend..."