Posts by Kalosyni

Instead of a Buddhist wheel of Samsara, my next idea for a drawing is an Epicurean wheel of Pleasure!

Coming soon, and please enjoy your anticipation

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Interoception is the perception of sensations from inside the body and includes the perception of physical sensations related to internal organ function such as heart beat, respiration, satiety, as well as the autonomic nervous system activity related to emotions

That is a great article Don (I read a portion and definitely want to read all of it).

Here is a quick sketch of something less "woo-woo" -- though it leaves a lot out and would be open to hearing feedback or additional ideas for labels, etc. And may need to show how to integrate of feelings, emotions, sensations, desires, etc.

It just came to me that there could be a kind of map of pleasure in the body, based on the chakra system. Seeing this as a mix of mental awareness, emotion, and physical sensation. Even as materialists we can have a kind of understanding of "spirit" as arising out of, and dependent upon, the material elements. And would also say that chakras need not be something "otherworldly" but just a way of thinking about the combined energies of the body and mind.

I found this article, which covers all the chakras:

The 7 Chakras and Their Connection to Pleasure

A brief intro

staceyherrera.medium.com

Here are some good excerpts:

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Pleasure is the most sought after feeling on the planet. It is entirely subjective; no two people experience it the same way. A pleasurable event can not be duplicated. Yet it can be experienced, in some form, over and over again.

The human body is designed to feel. Bundles of nerves and miles of synapses make it possible to perceive unimaginable sensations. Pleasure and pain, hot and cold, comfort, and dis-ease can all be felt and recognized, sometimes simultaneously. ....

....

When things appear to be spinning out of control and your instinct is to constrict, pleasure invites you to expand.

Permitting yourself to experience pleasure, not despite, but because of life’s stresses, is an act of radical self-care.

Relish in the flavors of good food. Notice your ears perking when you hear the musical sound of laughter. Feel the hairs on your arms prickle to life when a gentle breeze caresses you. See the beauty in little things: weeds breaking through concrete, puffy clouds against a blue sky. Find comfort in the scent of fresh bread or the smell of your beloved.

Even now, in the midst of so much uncertainty, pleasure is still medicine. 🙏🏾

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I haven't read the full article from the first post, but just the excerpts shown. This thread brings up a lots of good issues, and good contrasts:

I still believe that Epicureanism can be understood and applied in two ways, according to one's disposition:

1) pleasure (and pain) as guiding choice and avoidance, and living a full social lifestyle, from an extroverted disposition and a physically visceral experience.

2) pleasure (and pain) as guiding choice and avoidance, and living a quiet and reserved lifestyle, from an introverted disposition and a mentally rich experience.

So how you choose to live most pleasantly is coming from your in-born nature (or nurtured) disposition.

Also, there are some of us who have come through early life trauma, and so we need a more "therapeutic" approach -- this means that without a certain amount of tranquility we will feel too troubled to fully experience pleasure. Also, if we are confronted by unkind, or anxious, troubled people, then that can pull us down. So it depends on circumstances. And we need support from a gentle and loving Epicurean community.

I will need to re-read various posts above again, and may say more

Quote from EricR

It is this question that holds me back from buying into EP fully since I see other ideas such as the eastern notion that "all is Mind (consciousness or spirit)" as among those other ways of seeing the structure of reality.

I will quietly and gently ask you to consider:

Will understanding the hidden structure of reality help you live a happy life? Will it help you make good decisions? Will it give you motivation to pursue what is natural and necessary for happiness?

About my own experience -- I found that "eastern notions" of reality caused me to feel like giving up on life (no need to do, just be) and so they didn't work as a path toward happiness, for me.

And yet maybe for you, there is something that does work for you in "eastern notions of reality"...and if for you it leads to a happy and content life, then you should continue on with it

Quote from EricR

So, do Epicureans know there are only atoms and void, or do they believe this.

I think of reality as a "fully material universe" -- just as Don put it. So no heaven, no rebirth, just this very life, with all its simplicity, feeling the body, feeling the breath, and everything continually unfolding in awareness.

Maybe an Epicurean would say "Life is body and mind joyfully dancing toward pleasure, and calmly walking away from pain."

Quote from Joshua

"The poorest person in the world is the person with the..."

And now I am wondering about the happiest person?

The happiest person in the world is the person who:

1. Sleeps soundly and dreams good dreams at night

2. Wakes up feeling refreshed and enthusiastically leaps out of bed with a smile

3. Drinks a single cup of coffee with breakfast every morning and feels mentally sharp

4. Lives unknown yet surrounded by loving friends and family

5. Has an enjoyable work, craft, or hobby

6. Lives according to basic simple human needs (lives free from societal pressures for wealth, status, and fancy house and clothing)

7. Studies, or keeps in mind, the principles of a happy and pleasurable life together with like-minded friends and family

8. Every day does one or more pleasurable activities:

a. a meal shared with family/friends

b. an engaging discussion on wise philosophy

c. a conversation sharing of happy past memories

d. a conversation describing gratitude or savoring of a current good thing (a lovely view at the local park, beautiful flowers in bloom down at the street corner, the best cheese now available for purchase at the grocery store, etc.)

e. enjoying nature -- an enjoyable stroll either in delicious solitude, or as lively boisterous hike with friends

f. enjoyable sensations -- such as a bath or shower, and then the feeling of enjoyment of nice moisturizer or ointments for the body (even simply using coconut oil), a good stretch of the body, a nice cool glass of water on a hot day,....etc. etc. etc.

9. Feels at ease and content with life (is not troubled by stress, worries, fears, or feelings of being "too busy")

10. Has deep and supportive relationships with friends and family, which arise out of an agreeable disposition -- exhibiting kindness, friendliness, good-will, patience, curiousity, benevolence, honesty, trust-worthiness, and optimism, etc.

Is there anything else to add to this list?

Quote from Martin

We use our knowledge and experience to estimate whether it is likely that the considered action produces the desired outcome and that this outcome actually produces the expected pleasure. A severely adverse outcome needs to be expected to be very unlikely to take the risk.

We consider this for all feasible options we would consider and choose the one which appears to be the most efficient or which we simply like the most among several good options.

We should not worry too much about actually hitting the maximum pleasure. It is enough if the result provides considerable net pleasure which is worth the pain in preparations or consequences.

Thank you Martin And I think this looks like a mix of reason and intuition, which is helpful for me to see. With certain decisions we will want to take into account and consider our values regarding safety and economic costs -- which makes sense with big important decisions.

Don and Joshua, hedons and dolors, and these Bentham variables are generally only in regard to bodily sensations? And I would propose that the phrase "hedonic calculus" is good for bodily sensation, such as to decide if one would benefit from a second helping at dinnertime -- or how likely will a second helping cause one to feel unpleasantly full -- but then the shortcoming here is that one could still gain too much weight over time because the brain often delays the fullness signal (and it is a subjective decision about what weight is unhealthy). Over-eating makes one feel sleepy and lethargic. Extra pounds make exercise more difficult. You could argue regarding the "extent" -- everyone you know and who sees you will judge whether or not you are carrying extra pounds. You are what you eat in that sense. Also this shows how the variables aren't broad enough, because of extended time and personal values. There is a time component missing and a long-term happiness or long-term pain variable.

But when it comes to purely mental pleasures, then instead of the phrase "calculus of advantage" maybe the phrase "calculus of enjoyment"? -- Such as when deciding which hobbies to pursue, since we only have limited time.

Thank you EricR, your last thread helps clarify "egoist" and "egoism" -- as being the way of being which comes out of the internal subjective feeling of a given person.

Quote from EricR

I don't know what you mean by "the fullness of joy". But whatever it exactly is, the statement seems to indicate that one cannot experience it without other people. I have deep, satisfying, complete feeling experiences on my own all the time so I must differ on this point.

Okay, that is good to know, and reminds me that everyone has individual preferences and experiences, and so I need to be more careful before I assume a given level of social involvement as being best for everyone.

There are different levels of choices in life. There are simple everyday decisions that we can easily use our "gut" to decide, such as whether to cook beans or chicken for dinner. And many simple decisions don't cause much of a long-term impact.

But for big life decisions, it can require some decision making "calculus". And some big decisions can be very difficult to make when they are "hard choices" -- meaning that either one will greatly impact your life, but yet neither one seems better than the other (both are on par).

The only way through is to ask yourself "Who do I want to be?" -- to see that each choice will create something new in your life. Then you commit to get behind that choice to become that person. (These ideas come from Ruth Chang, professor of jurisprudence at the University of Oxford).

I still think there is something useful about the "hedonic calculus"... Martin, you are really good with explaining "hedonic calculus" for big decisions, can you help out by adding in your explanation to this thread?

Quote from EricR

"And Mind entered the skull of Epicurus, the Goethe of antiquity -

"The meaning of Life is Life itself"...

The mind of Epicurus had made a tremendous discovery, the greatest that had ever been made - that the will-to-live and the will-to-pleasure are one. Whatever lives, lives for egoistic gratification."

I would add that "egoistic gratification" cannot come to the fullness of joy and will not be completely pleasurable unless we join together with others in friendship and savoring of life -- we would then come to let go of a hyper self-focused individualism, and would learn that the mutual consideration of others within a community leads to the greatest ease and enjoyment in life -- and come to see that other's needs are equally important as our own -- the greatest pleasure arises when we interdependently "feed" each other -- but this depends on the safety and trust in a private community kepos. (This is just a vision I see of a well-established Epicurean philosophy garden).

Quote from Don

The gods provide no reason to fear them... because they're not motivated by anger or gratitude.

Death is to be approached with no suspicion... because we don't exist after we die.

The Good is easily obtained... because of the reasons laid out in various texts.

The Terrible is easily endured... because ditto.

The first two are easy (in my mind) but the last two are difficult.

Are there threads that we can cross reference to the "the good is easily obtained" and "the terrible is easily endured"? At times it seems that these last two depend on using stoic "mind over matter"?

As I think of the future, my goal is to create some type of in person Epicurean philosophy group. Ideally this would take place at an "Epicurean Church" which would come into existence after a core group of people become dedicated toward making that a reality. Otherwise it will be a weekly meet-up type group, which would be held at coffeehouses or other public places.

I see a way to teach "mini-courses" which address common everyday issues, using and pointing back to wise sayings of the Principle Doctrines/Vatican Sayings, Diogenes Laertius book 10 regarding the wise man, and Cicero's Torquatus presentation on Epicurean teachings.

The mini-courses would be on such topics as the following:

1) Increasing daily pleasure

2) Reducing fear and worry

3) Eliminating superstitious thinking

4) Friendship 101 (could be a much longer course)

5) Choice and avoidance in decision making

6) Cultivating joy and the the attitude of savoring

7) Healthy diet and exercise for long-term self-sufficency

8 ) Dealing with death and mourning

9) Kepos - developing, maintaining, and enhancing community well-being (could be a much longer course)

10) Modern science and the scientific process

11) Living ethically

12) Enjoying nature

13) Ancient Epicurean canonics and epistemology

14) Ancient Epicurean physics

15) Study of ancient Epicurean texts (could be an on-going course)

16) Epicurean book study groups (on-going)

17) Party planning committee - information sharing festivals, annual symposium, weekly potlucks, monthy 20th celebration, and other planning (on-going)

If anyone has any other ideas, comments, or questions, please share.

Also, if anyone would like to help create this and feels that their city would be a good place for an "Epicurean Church", then please let me know, since I am looking to relocate to any place that is more likely to support a real kepos. We would start with meet-ups and then see where we can go from there.

Yes, a warning, and perhaps remove it altogether, because it appears to suggest a selfish and immature stance in regard to romantic relationships.

I just read the first few pages and must say: THIS IS INCORRECT for a number of reasons:

A modern marriage won't last if it is just based on sex. The article doesn't define the word "love" and in the way it is used it appears to mean "naive lust". It doesn't take into consideration that people marry for companionship. After the sex drive inevitably cools down a bit, then hopefully you have found yourself someone who is a "partner in fun", meaning someone with whom you can enjoy fun things and the simple pleasures of life together. Unfortunately the modern world is so individualized and compartmentalized that only the extremely extroverted people can manage to live happily without being married (because their extroverted nature helps them have a wide range of friends so that they are never lonely). So marriage for introverted quiet people is important for the simple sake of friendship.

Further thoughts on "post-philosophy"...

If we can't or don't want to agree on exact definitions of words (because of several reasons) then how do we do philosophy?

1) We can't agree because certain words themselves are too abstract, and to give an exact definition will mean that we are no longer "doing philosophy" and instead we are now in the realm of psychology/self-help...which personally I am okay with that. But there will not be one "right way"...and I am okay with that too.

2) If we want to agree on one definition that will force us into trying to find the "right" answer or one "right" formula. Do we really think that there is always one right answer to everything?

So I would suggest that the best way out of this conundrum is to accept that we need to move toward a more open-ended way of approaching the world. This is not skepticm, because we can say given the assertion A... then if you do B or if you do C, then there is a likelihood that W, X, Y, or Z will result. The results are not infinite. They are dependent on the inputs. We can be certain that something will result from our actions, and there may be a higher likelihood of one result over the other, but sometimes we won't be able to know until we take action (so you have to choose based purely on which option has the greatest anticipated pleasure without depending on reason). In Buddhism there is a phrase called "skillful means" and we can learn from our previous experiences. You could then analyze backward and ask: "When do the best results happen? What causes the best results in decision making?"

On the flip side of what I just said about there not being one right way...is that as Epicureans we could take specific stands on things, as to which things in life bring the best pleasure and as well as the most pleasure over the longest time...so that would be: don't do such and such, but instead do X Y Z.

Regarding the telos, etc. So certain philosophers wanted to have things so neat and tidy...did Epicurus want things neat and tidy too? (or was this just a tactic of the opposing schools to say Epicurus' ideas were "not right").

Or because he was basing his thinking on the material world did he then see a messy quality to the world?

My questions here could be due to a "post-philosophical" way of thinking...going beyond "cooking with a set recipe" to "using the ingredients on hand" so basically that would mean that sometimes wisdom is a primary tool for making choices and other times pleasure works best as the primary tool for making choices... and sometimes both wisdom and pleasure at the same time. And as for defining the abstractions of good, highest good, pleasure, etc.... If we are forced to set aside "black and white" thinking...then we use "shades of gray...meaning that we must always base things in observable specific situations. There won't be one rule or correct way that can be referred to...so that means that sometimes we don't choose the immediate pleasure at hand, but instead wait for a future pleasure which will be much more fullfilling. But we must see that we are all "cooking without a recipe and using what we have on hand" as we navigate through life.

Quote from Cassius

whatever the electro-chemical process is by which or minds recognize pleasure, that electro-chemical process likely functions in the same way for all pleasures. So in that sense the way in which we perceive pleasures internally likely IS pretty much the same for all pleasures

I'm not sure we perceive all pleasures in the same way...because of the mix of seretonin, dopamine, endorphines, oxytocin, and they each act differently within the brain. So for peak happiness it would be good to pursue activities that trigger each of these chemicals. So just like there are "four food groups" that we should eat from for good health. Then there are these "four brain health groups" that give optimum happiness.

This is a good article:

I just found this paper which may be helpful...feeling too tired to read it tonight, but could be helpful in this discussion thread...

"Cicero as a Source for Epicurus"

by Kyle Tebo

Quote from Don

There *is* a single answer for everyone's telos/summum bonum: The "greatest good" for everyone is pleasure.

I don't think that there is one summum bonum for everyone. For some people God is the summum bonum within Christianity and religions (except Buddhism).

Quote from Godfrey

"the greatest good" is more of a philosophical argument carried on by others. In a materialist universe is it even possible to define a greatest good? For Epicurus I think that it's a functional guide as described in the Canon.

Quote from Cassius

Another way of stating the issue:

If you are going to ask the question "What is the greatest good?" The answer is "pleasure."

But you also have to consider "Should you be asking that question?"

I don't think that trying to prove one type of a "greatest good" as being the best will ever be possible, because it is like saying mashed potatoes are better than baked potatoes. They are both ways to satiate hunger, and some people will prefer the taste of mashed potatoes over baked potatoes.

We have a hunger for happiness. But if nothing seems to satisfy us anymore and mild depression takes hold or mild substance abuse causes health problems, then we need some remedies. (btw...severe cases of these should seek professional help).

God may work as a remedy for some, but for those of us for whom "God is dead" we need something else to focus on as our goal and our summum bonum. Also, the abstract idea of finding perfect flourishing as a summun bonum won't work when circumstances within any human life are so messy...we still must live even when we struggle to meet basic human needs of belonging and acceptance. So Epicureanism provides a way to live and seek happiness when "flourishing" is impossible. We don't have to wait till we are flourishing to be happy...we can seek pleasure right away.

Happy Valentine's Day everyone!

Epicurean wisdom is to enjoy pleasures which do not result in an excess of pain, but to pursue those things which produce more pleasures in the long run. Perhaps then we must use the virtue of love to create pleasure, for it is a pleasure and a joy to love, and to love one's own beloved and to love one's friends.

As an aside...here is a link to "Carte de Tendre"...a 1654 French "map of love", showing the many dangers that can befall the path of romance.

Map of Tendre - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

A wise person will make good choices and will be able to enjoy love and loving with less pain than an unwise person who rushes in too quickly.

It is important to note that Epicurus wrote a book on "Love" and it is listed in third place in Diogenes Laertius book 10...and also a book on "Touch" (much further down on the list)...we can only guess, since these were lost.

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Such then, so numerous are the works of Epicurus; the chief of which are the following:

• thirty-seven treatises on Natural Philosophy;
• one on Atoms and the Void;
• one on Love;
• an abridgment of the Arguments employed against the Natural Philosophers;
• one against the Doctrines of the Megarians;
• Problems;
• Fundamental Propositions;
• a treatise on Choice and Avoidance;
• another on the Chief Good;
• another on the Criterion, called also the Canon;
• Chaeredemus, a treatise on the Gods;
• one on Piety;
• [28] G   Hegesianax
• four essays on Lives;
• one on Just Dealing;
• Neocles;
• one essay addressed to Themista;
• the Banquet;
• Eurylochus;
• one essay addressed to Metrodorus;
• one on Seeing;
• one on the Angle in an Atom;
• one on Touch;
• one on Fate;
• Opinions on the Passions;
• one treatise addressed to Timocrates;
• Prognostics;
• Exhortations;
• a treatise on Images;
• one on Perceptions;
• Aristobulus;
• an essay on Music;
• one on Justice and the other Virtues;
• one on Gifts and Gratitude;
• Polymedes;
• Timocrates, a treatise in three books;
• Metrodorus, in five books;
• Antidorus, in two books;
• Opinions about Diseases, addressed to Mithras;
• Callistolas;
• an essay on Kingly Power;
• Anaximenes;
• Letters.

Since pleasure is our guide, we can know the right path to take by paying attention.

May you love with pleasure, joy, and prudence!

Happy Birthday SimonC !!!

May you be filled with many blessings of pleasure and joy!