Posts by Kalosyni

I think I better add in here that if a person interprets the Epicurean principles to be "tranquility is the goal" (as it appears that the above blogger J. Crago does) then it will appear that there are more differences between the ethical Epicurean and Cyrenaic teachings. There are however more differences between the epistemology of each one, than the ethical. I think it would be right to say that Cyrenaic leans toward skeptical and Epicureanism is empirical.

Here on this forum we use the Epicurean principles and interpret the "why" of pleasure to lead to our goal of the fullness of pleasure. And so we wouldn't agree with some of the points that J. Crago put forth on Epicureanism.

It does seem that Cyrenaic philosophy puts more emphasis on pleasure in the present compared to Epicureanism.

This also by Jordan Crago:

Quote

...Aristippus prided himself on his mastery over the pleasures he indulged, ensuring that he never made the mistake of believing a particular source of pleasure to be essential to his happiness, which allowed him to forego it if needed. For example, Aristippus said that he possessed the infamous courtesan Laïs, but that he was not possessed by her, and that “what is best is not abstaining from pleasures, but instead controlling them without being controlled.” This ability to indulge pleasure but also forego it, for example, if it will ultimately bring you greater pain in its wake, brought Aristippus a sense of freedom and self-mastery.

Like later Cyrenaics, Aristippus held that bodily pleasure was greater than mental pleasure. This seems plausible, for who would argue that the memory of fine food rivals the eating of fine food in enjoyment? Nevertheless, Aristippus put great stock by the avoidance of mental suffering. Indeed, part of Aristippus’ teaching on never becoming dependent on a particular source of pleasure, which is to say, seeing them as essential to your happiness, has to do with avoiding the distress you would feel if you lost that pleasure.

...The next Cyrenaic virtue I’ll discuss is temperance, which Aristippus defines as disdaining excess. The following letter written by Aristippus to his daughter illustrates Cyrenaic temperance. He is advising his daughter on how to react to the local government threatening to seize her properties: “I instruct you to manage this business with the rulers in such a way that my advice benefits you. That advice was not to desire what is excessive. In this way you’ll live out your life in the best fashion, if you’re disdainful of every excess. Those men will never wrong you so much that you’ll be in want, since you still have the two orchards, and they suffice even for a luxurious life. Even if only the property in Berenice were left, it wouldn’t fail to support an excellent lifestyle.”

Aristippus reminds his daughter that although she will lose some land, she will still have some left, and what remains is sufficient for a luxurious lifestyle. Now, for those of us who own no property, this anecdote isn’t enormously relatable. However, Aristippus does insist that “Those men will never wrong you so much that you’ll be in want”, which implies that even if the government seized all her properties, rather than just some, she would still have enough to be happy.

What Aristippus is implying, I think, is that although luxuries add spice to happiness, they are not ultimately essential to it. Another anecdote supports this idea: “Since you share this pleasant lifestyle with those women, let the officials in Cyrene wrong you as much as they want: they won’t wrong you with respect to your natural end”. This reminds me very much of Epicureanism, which is unsurprising since Epicurus was so influenced by the Cyrenaics.

In particular, I’m reminded of the Epicurean distinction between necessary and unnecessary desires. Some desires are necessary to the pleasant life, for example, one’s basic bio-psychological needs (food, water, shelter, friends), but others are unnecessary to the pleasant life, i.e. desires for luxuries. For Epicurus as for Aristippus, I suggest, luxuries add variety to the pleasant life, but one could still live pleasantly without them. The difference being, of course, that Epicurus taught voluntary asceticism from luxuries, whereas Aristippus taught controlled indulgence of them.

Thus, we might say that to desire excess is to desire what you cannot have. The importance of disdaining excess lay in the danger of undermining enjoyment in what you have available to you by replacing it with unhappy longing and toiling for what you don’t have, which is hedonistically irrational. Disdaining excess, then, offers an antidote to the unnecessary unhappiness of those who have everything they need to be happy — basic needs and, for most people, a ton of luxuries to boot — but who nevertheless make themselves unhappy by desiring what can’t be had.

https://jordancrago.medium.com/how-to-be-a-cyrenaic-d6b06041beb0

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Just adding this in here, as it has some usefullness. And to further see how this is beneficial:

When a particular thing that we want is very difficult or impossible to get or we have lost something that we thought was very pleasurable and can no longer get it, then we may feel angry or sad (and also may begin to feel feelings of hopelessness) -- then we need to survey the situation and see some important truths about happiness -- that our own happiness doesn't depend on just one thing -- happiness comes from multiple sources. So we can then stop "knocking our head against a wall" with regard to a certain thing that we want and can't get -- and not be so uptight about it. Further down the line we may decide that it is still something to put effort into achieving, and we can go about it clear-headed. Or we may simply see that we really don't need that thing as much as we thought we did, and so creatively pursue other enjoyments in life.

I think it is important to remember that this isn't the easiest to impliment -- there may be a feeling of internal resistence (I want what I want, no matter what!). But unlike Buddhism (which appears to me to teach "letting go, doing nothing, and having no further desires") I see this as different in that we are active and seek out new pleasure and enjoyments to replace what we can't have or have lost. So the emphasis is on personal responsibility and freedom -- making choices and taking actions that lead to enjoyment and happiness.

Here is a blog which explores Cyrenaicism and compares it to Epicureanism, by Jordan Crago.

I forgot that I started this thread, and need to reread it. I have still been curious to understand the differences. Also, if there is something helpful within it's approach. (Pleasure in the present moment is the antidote to low-level anxiety arising out of uncertainty). Further study may lead me to an eclectic "Epicurean-Cyrenaic" understanding

Here is a website which references Cyrenaic writings:

The Cyrenaics Resource [The Lucian of Samosata Project]

There are a lot of books on Existential therapy, and I am sure each author has their own unique twist.

And I think that Epicureanism would put a unique twist on "finding meaning in life" or "making meaning in life" and it would probably be different that the way that existential therapists suggest -- though everything I read seems to indicate that Existential therapy is very open for each person -- there is no one right way to think about things. It is more about making sense of things like death, freedom and responsibility, the subjective sense of having an isolated self, and the on-going process meaning-making (and making sense of life).

Epicureans will make meaning out of life in a very different way than say Christians. We believe that meaning is individually constructed, not handed down to us. There is a lot more to think about than just "Pleasure is the goal in life". And one Epicurean might say: Oh my meaning in life is to understand: "how to live as the gods". But another might say something very different.

Epicureanism says "Death is nothing to us" but that is really just the tip of the iceberg in considering how and what to believe about death.

Exploration of our beliefs about death are also important within Existential therapy, so this is where there is an overlap, as the belief that this very life is important to live to the fullest and we must choose and take action.

Here is another overview of Existential therapy:

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Existential therapy takes a philosophical/intellectual approach to therapy. It sees humans as:

• having the capacity for self-awareness, experiencing tension between freedom and responsibility
• creating an identity and establishing meaningful relationships
• searching for the meaning, purpose and values of life
• accepting anxiety as a condition of living
• being aware of death and non-being

Having the capacity for self-awareness means that we as humans can reflect and make choices. We can expand our awareness through realising that:

• we are finite: time is limited
• we have the potential and the choice to act or not to act
• meaning is not automatic – we must seek it
• we are subject to loneliness, meaninglessness, emptiness, guilt and isolation

Accepting Freedom and Responsibility

Existential therapy posits that we are free to choose among alternatives, and thus we are responsible for our lives, actions and any failure to take action. If clients blame others for their problems, therapists in this modality would help them recognise how they allowed others to decide for them and the price they pay for doing so, and would encourage them to consider the alternative options.

Identity is the courage to be: we must trust ourselves to search within and find our own answers. Our great fear is that we will discover that there is no core or self. Clients who are struggling with their identity need to be challenged, asking them in what ways they have lost touch with their identity and are letting others design their life.

Relationship to Others

Existential therapy suggests that we are alone. We as humans must therefore give a sense of meaning to life, decide how we will live, have a relationship with ourselves and learn to listen to ourselves. Humans need to create close relationships with others. Therapists might challenge clients on what they get from their relationships, and how and why they avoid close relationships.

Search for Meaning

Existential therapists encourage clients to ask themselves what they want from life, and where the source of meaning lies for them in life. A trusting therapist–client relationship is important in teaching clients to trust their own capacity to find their way of being. Finding meaning in life is a by-product of engagement, which is a commitment to creating, loving, working and building. Meanwhile, meaninglessness in life leads to emptiness and hollowness (sometimes known as an ‘existential vacuum’).

Anxiety in Existential Therapy

Anxiety is seen by existential therapists as being a condition of living, naturally arising from a person’s striving to survive. This is known as ‘existential anxiety’ and is a normal outcome of facing the four ultimate concerns in life: death, freedom, isolation and meaninglessness.

Once existential anxiety is recognised, it can be dealt with constructively. Anxiety can be a stimulus for growth as we become aware of and accept our freedom. If we have the courage to face ourselves and the challenges of human life, we may be frightened but we can change.

Awareness of Death

Death is seen as providing the motivation for us to live our lives fully and take advantage of each opportunity to do something meaningful.

How Existential Therapy Works

This modality aims to help clients to expand self-awareness, increase potential choices, accept responsibility for their choices, and experience authentic existence. The therapist seeks to understand the client’s subjective world, encourage the client to accept personal responsibility, and get them to take responsibility for their role in any problematic life situations.

Existential therapy is not technique-oriented; instead, the interventions used are based on philosophical views about the nature of human existence, and use the therapist’s self. It is particularly well-suited to clients who are bereaved, facing significant decisions or developmental crises, coping with failures in marriage and work, or dealing with physical limitations due to age.

Strengths and Weaknesses for Multicultural Working

Existential therapy is applicable to diverse clients who are searching for meaning in their lives, including examining whether their behaviour is being influenced by social and cultural factors. Therapists can help clients to weigh up the alternatives and possible consequences, to recognise how they contribute to their situation, and to identify how they can change their external environment.

However, critics of existential therapy see it as excessively individualistic; for many cultures, it is not possible to talk about self and self-determination outside the context of the social network. This modality can also be seen as ignoring the social factors that cause human problems: even if clients change internally, there may be little hope that the external realities of racism or discrimination will change.

Existential therapy can also be difficult for clients who expect a structured and problem-oriented approach instead of discussion of philosophical questions.

https://counsellingtutor.com/counselling-ap…ential-therapy/

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I can imagine that there could be a way to combine Epicureanism and Existential therapy ideas together, and then develop this into a "peer-led support group".

Quote from Cassius

So the question is "From WHAT philosophical perspective?"

Existential psychotherapy comes out of the philosophy of Nietzsche and Kierkegaard. Then there were later therapists who expanded and adapted new perspectives, and it does appear there is a humanist approach.

I want to explore the compatibility of Epicureanism and Existential Therapy and also applying philosophical thinking to the practice of therapy. A quick online search brings several articles -- Existential therapists have the potential for using the philosophy of Epicurus in their practice of therapy.

First to explain Existential Therapy:

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Existential therapy is a form of psychotherapy that explores the difficulties that an individual experiences but from a philosophical perspective. This type of therapy focuses on the holistic aspects of the human condition as a whole. Existential therapy focuses on the individual and not the symptoms that the individual is presenting with but also recognizes the power of the individual to choose their actions. Emotional and psychological difficulties are viewed as an inner conflict caused by an individual’s confrontation with the givens of existence. Rather than exploring the past, the existential approach looks at the here and now. It can be highly effective with adolescents and adults that are struggling to make healthy life choices, as well as the consequences of their choices.

What is Existential Therapy?

Existential therapy is a type of talk therapy that is based on some of the main ideas behind existentialism as a philosophy. The goal of existential therapy is to assist individuals in accepting and overcoming existential fears that are inherent in being human. An example of these existential fears includes freedom and responsibility, isolation, meaninglessness, and death. Existential therapists evaluate a person’s experience in four dimensions of existence; physical, social, spiritual, and psychological. Through these dimensions are the existential fears of that individual’s life explored. Existential therapists look to help individuals live more authentically and to be less concerned with superficiality. Existential therapy focuses on each individual’s uniqueness as well as how their choices shape their life. It also helps guide individuals on their journey to self-understanding and self-acceptance. Within existential therapy, the individual is empowered to take responsibility for the choices that shape their lives. There is no structure to existential therapy therefore the number of sessions is not predetermined like with most cognitive-behavioral therapy. Existential therapy encourages individuals to:

• Evaluate their values, beliefs, and situation.
• Acknowledge their limitations as well as the possibilities for their lives.
• Find meaning and purpose in their lives.
• Develop more effective ways of communicating. (CRC Health, 2019)

The existential approach stresses that:

• All people have the capacity for self-awareness.
• Each person has a unique identity that can be known only through relationships with others.
• People must continually re-create themselves because life’s meaning constantly changes.
• Anxiety is part of the human condition.

https://www.claritychi.com/adult-therapy/…al-therapy/amp/

Quote

The existential approach is first and foremost philosophical. It is concerned with the understanding of people’s position in the world and with the clarification of what it means to be alive. It is also committed to exploring these questions with a receptive attitude, rather than a dogmatic one: the search for truth with an open mind and an attitude of wonder is the aim, not the fitting of the client into pre-established categories and interpretations.

The existential approach considers human nature to be open-ended, flexible and capable of an enormous range of experience. The person is in a constant process of becoming. I create myself as I exist. There is no essential, solid self, no given definition of one’s personality and abilities.

Existential thinkers avoid restrictive models that categorise or label people. Instead, they look for the universals that can be observed transculturally. There is no existential personality theory which divides humanity up into types or reduces people to part components. Instead, there is a description of the different levels of experience and existence that people are inevitably confronted with.

Extracts are taken from ‘Existential Therapy’ (chapter Eight by Emmy van Deurzen, in Dryden, W. ed. The Dryden Handbook of Individual Therapy, London, Sage Publications, 2008.

https://nspc.org.uk/about-the-scho…ntial-approach/

To use all of this in a "self-help" manner:

I would suggest reading about Existential therapy and journaling, all while bringing in Epicurean principles.

I hope to post more on this soon.

Quote from Don

Academic commentators who elevate ataraxia and aponia at the expense of khara and euphrosyne do seem disingenuous or even dishonest. Those four are given together in the infamous katastematic/kinetic categorization. Epicurus included all four of these in his definition of pleasure.

katastematic:

ataraxia -

eponia -

kinetic:

khara - joy, delight, joy in or at a thing, in accordance with joyous tidings

euphrosyne - mirth, merriment, festivities, good cheer, cheered with glad thoughts

Don -- Can you post the links to translation entries for the Greek words ataraxia and eponia on the Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon website (I tried using their search engine but nothing came up on ataraxia, probably a user-error, lol).

Quote from Cassius

For both and everyone this episode is a good way to focus on the answer to the question:. When you and Epicurus both accept that you have been nonexistent for an eternity before birth and will be nonexistent for an eternity after you die, do you really think that Epicurus taught that the full description of all you want out of life is to be "calm?"

As I read this: "You have been nonexistent for an eternity before birth and will be nonexistent for an eternity after you die" -- it had a rather sobering affect on me -- and a feeling that I needed to sit down to make sense of it. Which points to the possibility that I don't really understand my mortality. It seems then that the next impulse is to then fully understand what it is to be alive, and that must be done through the senses and through experiencing the world. So that would be fully openning up one's awareness and one's senses -- which is a bit of a frightening thing, because if you open your awareness then you are confronted by everything -- both pleasure and pain!

VS 11 - "For most people, to be quiet is to be numb and to be active is to be frenzied."

I think this is a very important Epicurean principle to consider -- that we are going to navigate through the world neither numb, nor frenzied -- and maybe a better word than "calm" would be "grounded" (?)

Quote from Cassius

Pleasure as defined by normal definitions includes both joy and delight and tranquility. The reverse is not the case in normal or academic discourse - tranquility is not considered to include joy and delight.

As I see it f we want to convey that we value both goals in the online world of discussing Epicurus, the global word which must be emphasized is Pleasure. If we fail to make clear the sweeping definition of Pleasure, the result is that we imply that Tranquility is a separate and equal or even higher goal. At that point we will be indistinguishable from those who consider joy and delight to be second tier goals and that joy and delight are expendable or merely instrumental toward some supposedly higher word.

Thank you Cassius for your continued explainations and to not let us slip down into something that will be misinterpreted and lead back down to an incorrect interpretation. Word choice is everything it seems, and I see how this will continue to be an issue unless we get creative and write out some modern "principle doctrines" -- pithy ways of explaining core truths of Epicureanism. I myself like the phrase: "sweet life" because of the implications that it includes pleasurable sensations. But a full pithy saying is needed, and maybe more than just one pithy saying to better explain things.

Further thoughts on the podcast today:

There are several ways to approach this particular passage -- with a clearly rational/philosophical/thinking mind, or with a "feeling" component and therapeutic approach. And now thinking that perhaps Existential Therapy could be a way to combine both of these approaches -- the thinking mind and the feeling mind together.

Also, I brought up the importance of friendship for a happy life -- and I feel this is an antidote that should be explored for anyone who feels sad, depressed, or in need of some encouragement toward seeing life as good (so there is no reason to shun life).

Here is a thread I started earlier, on friendship:

Thread

Importance of Cultivating Friendships and Further Advice

Principle Doctrine 27:

27.	Of all the things that wisdom provides for the complete happiness of one's entire life, by far the greatest is friendship.

Principle Doctrine 27 is very important for a happy life. Modern life is busy with work and family, and yet we all still need friends. So it is very important to take the time and put the effort into making friends and maintaining friendships. Some people might be satisfied with the number and kind of friendships in their lives, but others…

Kalosyni

January 16, 2022 at 8:54 PM

I brought up Existential Therapy today, and thinking I want to set up another thread to further explore how Epicureanism and Existential Therapy could be compatible.

Quote

Existential psychotherapy is a style of therapy that places emphasis on the human condition as a whole. Existential psychotherapy uses a positive approach that applauds human capacities and aspirations while simultaneously acknowledging human limitations.

...Existential therapy developed out of the philosophies of Friedrich Nietzsche and Soren Kierkegaard. As one of the first existential philosophers, Kierkegaard theorized that human discontent could only be overcome through internal wisdom. Later, Nietzsche further developed the theory of existentialism using concepts such as the will to power and personal responsibility. In the early 1900s, philosophers such as Martin Heidegger and Jean-Paul Sartre began to explore the role of investigation and interpretation in the healing process. Over the next several decades, other contemporaries started to acknowledge the importance of experiencing in relation to understanding as a method to achieving psychological wellness and balance...

Existential psychotherapy is based upon the fundamental belief that all people experience intrapsychic conflict due to their interaction with certain conditions inherent in human existence, which are known as givens. The theories recognize at least four primary existential givens:

• Freedom and associated responsibility
• Death
• Isolation
• Meaninglessness

A confrontation with any of the aforementioned conditions, or givens, fills an individual with a type of dread commonly referred to as existential anxiety. This anxiety is thought to reduce a person’s physical, psychological, social, and spiritual awareness, which may lead to significant long-term consequences.

For example, the fact that each one of us and each one of our loved ones must die at some unknown time may be a source of deep anxiety to us, and this may tempt us to ignore the reality and necessity of death in human existence. By reducing our awareness of death, however, we may fail to make decisions that can actually safeguard or even enrich our lives. At the other end of the spectrum, people who are overly conscious of the fact that death is inevitable may be driven to a state of neurosis or psychosis.

The key, according to existential psychotherapy, is to strike a balance between being aware of death without being overwhelmed by it. People who maintain a healthy balance in this way are motivated to make decisions that can positively impact their lives, as well as the lives of their loved ones. Though these people may not know how their decisions will actually turn out, they do appreciate the need to take action while they can. In essence, the reality of death encourages us to make the most of opportunities and to treasure the things we have.

https://www.goodtherapy.org/learn-about-th…l-psychotherapy

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Just pondering: How many times might Epicurus have sailed either across or in the Aegean Sea?

Samos to Athens

Athens to Colophon

Colophon to Mytilene

Mytilene to Lampsacus

Lampsacus to Athens

But maybe other trips as well?

Quote from Joshua

John Augustus Shedd.

Just a week or two ago I saw this in a coffeehouse and took a photo, since it captured my interest.

Quote from Cassius

Epicurus has no direct observational evidence of atoms or void, but he found strong circumstantial evidence from the observation of other things which he could observe directly. We therefore logically do not require direct evidence on all issues, but we require that any theories be consistent with what evidence does exist.

Just an aside here -- of what might have caused the theory of atoms -- "visual snow" --

"Visual snow (VS) is a form of visual hallucination that is characterized by the perception of small, bilateral, simultaneous, diffuse, mobile, asynchronous dots usually throughout the entire visual field, but it can be partial, and it is present in all conditions of illumination, even with the eyes closed." -- which is listed as an eye disorder.

However -- it could come on during states of meditation.

Here is a good article:

The Safest Places To Retire Outside the US

Some retirees want to stretch their dollars, while others are most concerned with proximity to family, fishing holes or golf courses. Plenty of other folks…

finance.yahoo.com

The above pyramid is incorrect and has incorrect names for the levels -- there are only 5 categories -- physiological, safety, belonging, self-esteem, and self-actualization. So it seems there are many variations that have cropped up over time -- and also funny memes:

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23902918

(This is both a good article and an easy quick read).

I would say that if we take the five categories we can compare them to "natural goods" and also to "natural and necessary" for happiness, so I see it as compatible to Epicureanism.

For an Epicurean, self-esteem would be about self-confidence that one can make good choices in life and that one is responsible and competent in life, and also skills of understanding pain and pleasure and how to deal with them in one's own life -- so skills of one's inner life.

As for self-actualization -- this would be doing activities which lead to a feeling of living a fullfilled, enjoyable, and happy life -- so developing skills within certain activities.

Quote from Matteng

But for example for self-improvement, learning new languages could be a desire without a limit, so -> unnecessary, but natural to have such desires ?

Or is this a complete wrong take ? Because there are the virtues.

In what category is the desire to become more virtuous ?

Or do I make here a category error ? For all desire´s we need virtue. And here lurks the mistake to confuse the goal (pleasure) with the means (virtue).

Virtue is the greatest -> means <- for a happy life

Desires without limit: this is when you desire to do something not for the joy of doing it but rather to achieve an abstract ideal of approval or perfection -- these goals can't ever be reached.

Instead of seeking abstract approval we need to find true friendship, and enjoy the pleasures of friendship.

If we first understand that virtue brings with it the idea of striving for perfection, then we can set aside the idea that virtue is better than pleasure -- striving for perfection won't bring a happy life. If a person thinks they have reached perfection in a certain area, then they will next have to seek out some other area of life to strive toward perfection -- so it is a desire without limit, and brings dissatisfaction.

If instead we seek for fulfillment in natural areas of life -- belonging, friendship, and enjoyment of fullfilling activities.

If we realize that we need to do work to establish or maintain future security, we don't need virtue (harsh discipline) to spur us on -- rather we think about what will bring a good life in the future and even if there is some pain in the present we will pursue what we need to do.

As for the other meaning of the word virtue such as kindness, patience, wisdom, etc, -- we see these as necessary for good friendship or a good life -- so virtue of this kind works toward the service of pleasure.

Quote from Kalosyni

it may appear that that Epicureanism is for the "well-to-do" person, but I don't agree. I see pleasure as an antidote -- one pursues "pleasure as medicine" -- and then in this way the philosophy can be applied regardless of one's level of wealth.

For example, it may appear that there is no way to change or improve one's situation -- but if 10 years later things CAN change -- what do you do while you are waiting to get there? You enjoy life the best you can!

I realize my own life reflects a situation in which I was not happy (living in an unpleasant house) and it took me 8 years to figure out what to do differently, to start moving in a different direction.

Don, I still stand by my word choice of "striving" -- because some of us need to choose to strive toward happiness, and strive to move toward pleasure. I suppose another choice of words would be "put in some effort" -- because we need to put in some effort into creating a good life.

Quote from Don

My first thought on reading this was: If modern life - in fact, life in any time - is at odds with being "pain free or untroubled," why do we find this acceptable? I don't want to think that "that's just the way things are." I don't want to accept that.

I want to envision a way of living in the modern world in which my mind *can* be untroubled, in which I can face any issue that comes up with composure and clear thinking.

That's great and I also think it is highly dependent upon life circumstances. So perhaps your circumstances are supportive of living untroubled -- once one is settled down in life and lives in a happy and safe community/city, is secure with one's living situation (owns one's own home), feels fully confident in financial security (with enough savings to last till the end of one's life) has a safety net of good family and friends, and has no doubts about future well-being. Anyone who doesn't have any of these will have to use the very painful attempt of a "mind over matter" approach and try to repress their worries if they want to feel at peace -- perhaps this is why we have religion (and stoicism) as one way to try to deal with a troubled mind.

And as such it may appear that that Epicureanism is for the "well-to-do" person, but I don't agree. I see pleasure as an antidote -- one pursues "pleasure as medicine" -- and then in this way the philosophy can be applied regardless of one's level of wealth.

Quote from Don

I suggest replacing "stress" with "pain" to see how that feels. I can certainly see how "things can be a mix of pleasure and pain"; but, to me, the word "stress" adds an emotional dimension - "stress" is a way of adding our emotional reaction to the immediate feeling of pain.

Good point here, and yes it would be better to be more specific with words for emotions and feelings. Anxiety, fear, worry, feeling tense, anxious, frustrated -- immediate reactions followed by further reactions -- and then further reactions might be worry that one can't change one's circumstances.