Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Cassius

Epicurus has no direct observational evidence of atoms or void, but he found strong circumstantial evidence from the observation of other things which he could observe directly. We therefore logically do not require direct evidence on all issues, but we require that any theories be consistent with what evidence does exist.

Just an aside here -- of what might have caused the theory of atoms -- "visual snow" --

"Visual snow (VS) is a form of visual hallucination that is characterized by the perception of small, bilateral, simultaneous, diffuse, mobile, asynchronous dots usually throughout the entire visual field, but it can be partial, and it is present in all conditions of illumination, even with the eyes closed." -- which is listed as an eye disorder.

However -- it could come on during states of meditation.

Here is a good article:

The Safest Places To Retire Outside the US

Some retirees want to stretch their dollars, while others are most concerned with proximity to family, fishing holes or golf courses. Plenty of other folks…

finance.yahoo.com

The above pyramid is incorrect and has incorrect names for the levels -- there are only 5 categories -- physiological, safety, belonging, self-esteem, and self-actualization. So it seems there are many variations that have cropped up over time -- and also funny memes:

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23902918

(This is both a good article and an easy quick read).

I would say that if we take the five categories we can compare them to "natural goods" and also to "natural and necessary" for happiness, so I see it as compatible to Epicureanism.

For an Epicurean, self-esteem would be about self-confidence that one can make good choices in life and that one is responsible and competent in life, and also skills of understanding pain and pleasure and how to deal with them in one's own life -- so skills of one's inner life.

As for self-actualization -- this would be doing activities which lead to a feeling of living a fullfilled, enjoyable, and happy life -- so developing skills within certain activities.

Quote from Matteng

But for example for self-improvement, learning new languages could be a desire without a limit, so -> unnecessary, but natural to have such desires ?

Or is this a complete wrong take ? Because there are the virtues.

In what category is the desire to become more virtuous ?

Or do I make here a category error ? For all desire´s we need virtue. And here lurks the mistake to confuse the goal (pleasure) with the means (virtue).

Virtue is the greatest -> means <- for a happy life

Desires without limit: this is when you desire to do something not for the joy of doing it but rather to achieve an abstract ideal of approval or perfection -- these goals can't ever be reached.

Instead of seeking abstract approval we need to find true friendship, and enjoy the pleasures of friendship.

If we first understand that virtue brings with it the idea of striving for perfection, then we can set aside the idea that virtue is better than pleasure -- striving for perfection won't bring a happy life. If a person thinks they have reached perfection in a certain area, then they will next have to seek out some other area of life to strive toward perfection -- so it is a desire without limit, and brings dissatisfaction.

If instead we seek for fulfillment in natural areas of life -- belonging, friendship, and enjoyment of fullfilling activities.

If we realize that we need to do work to establish or maintain future security, we don't need virtue (harsh discipline) to spur us on -- rather we think about what will bring a good life in the future and even if there is some pain in the present we will pursue what we need to do.

As for the other meaning of the word virtue such as kindness, patience, wisdom, etc, -- we see these as necessary for good friendship or a good life -- so virtue of this kind works toward the service of pleasure.

Quote from Kalosyni

it may appear that that Epicureanism is for the "well-to-do" person, but I don't agree. I see pleasure as an antidote -- one pursues "pleasure as medicine" -- and then in this way the philosophy can be applied regardless of one's level of wealth.

For example, it may appear that there is no way to change or improve one's situation -- but if 10 years later things CAN change -- what do you do while you are waiting to get there? You enjoy life the best you can!

I realize my own life reflects a situation in which I was not happy (living in an unpleasant house) and it took me 8 years to figure out what to do differently, to start moving in a different direction.

Don, I still stand by my word choice of "striving" -- because some of us need to choose to strive toward happiness, and strive to move toward pleasure. I suppose another choice of words would be "put in some effort" -- because we need to put in some effort into creating a good life.

Quote from Don

My first thought on reading this was: If modern life - in fact, life in any time - is at odds with being "pain free or untroubled," why do we find this acceptable? I don't want to think that "that's just the way things are." I don't want to accept that.

I want to envision a way of living in the modern world in which my mind *can* be untroubled, in which I can face any issue that comes up with composure and clear thinking.

That's great and I also think it is highly dependent upon life circumstances. So perhaps your circumstances are supportive of living untroubled -- once one is settled down in life and lives in a happy and safe community/city, is secure with one's living situation (owns one's own home), feels fully confident in financial security (with enough savings to last till the end of one's life) has a safety net of good family and friends, and has no doubts about future well-being. Anyone who doesn't have any of these will have to use the very painful attempt of a "mind over matter" approach and try to repress their worries if they want to feel at peace -- perhaps this is why we have religion (and stoicism) as one way to try to deal with a troubled mind.

And as such it may appear that that Epicureanism is for the "well-to-do" person, but I don't agree. I see pleasure as an antidote -- one pursues "pleasure as medicine" -- and then in this way the philosophy can be applied regardless of one's level of wealth.

Quote from Don

I suggest replacing "stress" with "pain" to see how that feels. I can certainly see how "things can be a mix of pleasure and pain"; but, to me, the word "stress" adds an emotional dimension - "stress" is a way of adding our emotional reaction to the immediate feeling of pain.

Good point here, and yes it would be better to be more specific with words for emotions and feelings. Anxiety, fear, worry, feeling tense, anxious, frustrated -- immediate reactions followed by further reactions -- and then further reactions might be worry that one can't change one's circumstances.

Some after-thoughts perculating (post-podcast):

"Become accustomed to the belief that death is nothing to us."
"For all good and evil consists in sensation, but death is deprivation of sensation."...

"...so long as we exist, death is not with us; but when death comes, then we do not exist."

Believe that there is no need to be concerned about what exists after death,

because after death there is no consciousness and no sensation.

Quote from Don

As I think some more, I still am becoming enamored of the idea that a pleasurable life's foundation is a mind and body free from trouble, pain, and anxiety. Ataraxia and aponia. That's where it starts! That's the foundation upon we can build experiences of pleasure arising from natural desires, both necessary and unnecessary. Without that foundation, we are anxious that we won't be able to fulfill desires we want to choose; we're troubled that our desire won't completely fulfill our expectations; we fear the pleasure coming from our chosen desire won't last long enough. The fears, anxieties, and troubles can spiral out of control. If we have a sound mind in a healthy body, we can pluck the desires we find appealing with no mental anguish, large or small. If your mind is already at peace, sink your teeth into the ripe peach, experience the juice dripping down chin, close your eyes and taste the sensuous sweetness on your tongue. Experience the pleasure undimmed by some mental baggage because you're already at the limit of pleasure and the peach is varying that feeling.

I think that ataraxia and aponia are important, however I view them differently -- because modern life is really at odds with being "pain free or untroubled".

We certainly wouldn't want to wait to be completely untroubled in order to enjoy life. In a given day we might have moments of feeling untroubled, but an active modern life will bring us into "stressful" moments. Also things can be a mix of pleasure and stress -- for example going to a coffeehouse can sometimes be too noisy (or unpleasing music is playing), but as long as there is over-all more pleasure than stress we will choose this activity. Also over time what might originally feel stressful can be adapted to.

Also, it came to me early this morning, that life requires a certain amount of "striving" or work. Most people until they are retired work at a job to make money for the purpose of survival (there are stay-at-home moms which is a big job in itself). Striving brings with it a certain amount of stress, but hopefully we can find ways to adapt which isn't too stressful (or jobs which aren't too stressful). Then beyond this for people who are retired, life still needs some form of striving, or else the will to live diminishes. And the striving could be any type of interest or goal (big or small) which requires some effort but also feels engaging and important in some way. And striving will always bring with it a small amount of mental stress. I would say that it is very important to make sure the level of stress does not become overwhelming.

So then for me "ataraxia and aponia" are focused toward creating more ease and comfort while still engaging in life -- and the amount of ease and comfort needed can vary from person to person, or from week to week.

Quote

we're troubled that our desire won't completely fulfill our expectations

This is where I believe that certain "natural goods" are important -- such as the need for friendship/companionship (and all the enjoyments that come with it) which can make life situations feel better or less stressful or less disappointing.

Quote from Don

I'm trying to think of ways to get away from the vessel metaphor.

Also I am wondering about getting entirely away from metaphors and just thinking about real life. When I first started studying Epicureanism and bringing some of the ideas into my life (back when I was living on the west coast and during all the earlier Covid uncertainties). I was setting an intention to bring in more enjoyment into my life -- and I would wake up in the morning and ask myself "How can I bring more pleasure into my life?" And it was often very simple things. I think it will also matter how one thinks of pleasure -- is it fun? is it sweetness? is it love? is it satisfaction? is it comfort? is it good health? is it a little food treat? or smelling roses or adding cinnamon to breakfast? (We might want to limit certain food treats/sweets to once a week so that they feel more special). And everyone will come up with different desires. And it is so much easier to seek out things by using a gut-level sense of what is needed for a happy life.

Mythology --The Three Graces --- daughters of Zeus and Eurynome:

"It is traditional to offer them the first draught of wine at a gathering to invoke their blessing and aid.”

Quote

The Three Graces are (most consistently named), from youngest to oldest, Aglaia, Euphrosyne, and Thalia (2, 12). Roman mythology depicts these Goddesses as The Graces (The Gratiae), having been previously referred to as the Charities (Kharites) in Greek mythology. In the Roman custom, in addition to their other benefits, The Gratiae signify gratitude (as in gratia), as well as benevolence (9), and according to Seneca, each of the three Goddesses is linked in a chain to causality, which pertains to the divine manifestation of Grace, and as related to their differing ages (15).

• Aglaia – the eldest, (literal: splendor, beautiful, bright) (4), beauty, nature, amusement; sometimes wife of Hephaestus (14), divine artistry; “The Grace symbolizing beauty (9).”
• Euphrosyne – (literal; mirth, merriment, cheerful, or a good mind) (5), good cheer, joy, and being well. “The Grace incarnate of delight (9).”
• Thalia – (literal; luxuriant, blooming) (6), plentiful, rich, festivity. “The Grace of blossoming (9).”

Quote

“It is traditional to offer them the first draught of wine at a gathering to invoke their blessing and aid.”
— 365 Goddess

The Graces vs The Muses vs. The Fates

The Graces are most principle in relationship to Venus (15) appearing as handmaidens within her extended entourage, and spending much time at the Goddess's sanctuary at Cypress. It was in this temple of refuge where Venus was maintained in health and comfort, regularly bathed in the divinely anointed oils of The Gratiae, and where for example, the Goddess was presented with a magnificent immortal robe (10). Eros and The Muses (8) were frequent companions of The Graces as well, and they all loved to spend time together, dancing around in a circle to the music of Apollo (8). Another of their colleagues, the Goddess Dike (one of The Hours), often attended The Graces, and particularly in matters of peace and justice (1).

The individual identities of the nine Muses are often intermingled with the three Graces as the two groups sometimes overlap in benefit. However, The Graces and The Muses dwell from slightly different origins. All of the Goddesses share a parent Zeus, though, in some Roman lore, The Graces are instead, fathered by Bacchus. Eurynome an Oceanid - daughter of Oceanus (God of the Sea) and Tethys (fresh water), (an incestuous Titanian brother/sister marital couple), is their mother (14).

https://owlcation.com/humanities/The-Gratiae-Goddesses

PD19 - "Infinite time contains no greater pleasure than limited time, if one measures by reason the limits of pleasure."

Another twist:

If we are to strive to live like the gods who are immortal, we who are mortal can live equally well because there is no difference in our experience of pleasure vs the god's experience of pleasure -- because "pleasure" functions the same way regardless of time.

Was the word used in this PD "hedone" or "eudaimonia" ?

Quote from Godfrey

But since Epicurus used the word pleasure, is he using the word because it is the goal that he is concerned with or is he making a different point than what I'm understanding?

This is a good question, and I think it also depends on how we interpret the word "pleasure".

Quote from Godfrey

Infinite time contains no greater quantity of dark chocolate eaten than finite time, if one measures, by reason, the limits of quantity of dark chocolate eaten.

Now you're talking!

This last Wednesday Zoom (on August 17th) we were still talking about PD19 - and I remember trying out this "word game":

Infinite time contains no greater satisfaction than finite time, if one measures, by reason, the limits of satisfaction.

This shows how vibrantly Greek statues were originally painted:

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Ancient Greek and Roman sculpture was once colorful, vibrantly painted and richly adorned with detailed ornamentation. Chroma: Ancient Sculpture in Color reveals the colorful backstory of polychromy—meaning “many colors,” in Greek—and presents new discoveries of surviving ancient color on artworks in The Met’s world-class collection. Exploring the practices and materials used in ancient polychromy, the exhibition highlights cutting-edge scientific methods used to identify ancient color and examines how color helped convey meaning in antiquity, and how ancient polychromy has been viewed and understood in later periods.

https://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2022/chroma

Raphael Woolf - "What Kind of Hedonist was Epicurus?"

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4182759

David B. Hershenov - "A More Palatable Epicureanism"

https://www.jstor.org/stable/20464366

In the introduction the author asserts:

Quote

"However, Epicureanism does differ in one crucial respect to all forms of modern hedonism, in that it treats pleasure as strictly negative or privative: pleasure is simply the absence or removal of pain. Here, my reading departs from that of Hershenov and Woolf, both of whom try to find a place in Epicureanism for a positive conception of pleasure..."

So we need to track down Hershenov and Woolf's writings -- since we here on the forum have a positive conception of pleasure.

Quote from Cassius

It's almost like the issue is whether the glass is half full or half empty - is the real focus of Epicurean philosophy Pleasure - or Pain?

I don't think it is satisfactory even to say both.

I think it is both pleasure and pain, because "choices and avoidances" are very important.

Quote from Cassius

According to the Epicurean account of desire, achieving one’s heart’s desire is no better than not having one."

This guy can really turn a phrase. He does a great job highlighting the issues!

These interesting excerpts you've posted Cassius (I haven't read the article yet).

What came to my mind after reading this particular one, was a concept from Hinduism - "Divine Lila (Leela)" - which translates as "Divine Play" and in a very simplified sense could be thought of just as in Shakepeare's quote:

"All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players"

Ultimately there could be a kernal of truth in "achieving one's heart's desire is no better than not having one" -- yet thinking this way about desire makes life not worth living, and misses the point of making meaning out of life and the human condition ---- The show must go on! We must play the play and engage in life fully. And Epicurus says to make choices wisely -- and my own interpretation is to make choices which lead to a "sweet life" filled with joys of the heart.

This article just proves the importance of needing to explain that the Epicurean aim is to live joyfully. And also the need to define what is a joyful life and how to create one.

Quote from Cassius

We can at one and the same time understand that (1) living in a cave on bread and water may in fact be appropriate under certain circumstances but also (2) that such circumstances and manner of living is not the norm nor should it be accepted as a norm.

This may be outside the orgininal subject matter of this thread, however I feel the need to examine more closely this phrase: "living in a cave on bread and water". I know it represents "asceticism", and that an Epicurean would not choose to live an ascetic lifestyle. Yet what about others who are not yet Epicurean or who are new to Epicureanism -- what would this actually look like? What are the ways in which people try to retreat from civilization?

1) Moving to a remote mountain cabin (or to the desert).

2) Someone who is retired and lives alone choosing to live so frugally that they only leave the house for occassional grocery shopping.

3) Seeking an ascetic spiritual life - moving into a Catholic or Buddhist monastery.

Why would someone choose this for themselves? (I doubt anyone would choose an ascetic lifestyle if they could easily live normally).

1) Lack of finances

2) Social anxiety disorder

3) Spiritual retreat for religious reasons or self-reflection (probably caused by an "existential crisis")

Could there be aspects of Epicureanism which could help people who are considering living as an "ascetic", due to feelings of anxiety, etc? Is it possible that Epicurus had teachings on psychological remedies, and those writings were lost? From Book 10 of Diogenes Laertius we know that he wrote an entire book "Of Choice and Avoidance" (and also other books).