Posts by Kalosyni

I hope to eventually get more of an understanding around Epicurus' ideas/beliefs about the gods. In the meantime I found this interesting article on impiety, but lots of Greek words (maybe Don might enjoy decifering) and I have only read first few paragraphs of introduction.

Here is an excerpt:

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Impiety is an offence, an ἀδικία – i.e., to put it crudely, a wrong that you might do and that is likely to be punished in some way.6 Imperative formulations used in preventive laws, such as ἀσεβὴς ἔστω, ἀσεβείτω and ἔνοχος ἔστω ἀσεβείᾳ, categorize a given ἀδικία as an impiety, but also imply that from now on the culprit will be regarded as impious, and this status will legitimize the application of sanctions from other members of the community. In other words, ἀσεβὴς ἔστω, “let him be impious”, should be understood as a shorter version of “let him be punished as one who is regarded as impious”.7 Far from being a simple linguistic twist, the connection between committing an ἀσέβεια and being ἀσεβής has not insignificant consequences for how we should understand impiety and its implications in Greek society, as well as the Greek legal system in general.

Impiety in Epigraphic Evidence

The concept of impiety (ἀσέβεια) in ancient Greek religion is complex. Firstly, definitions provided by ancient authors themselves point out, as potential…

journals.openedition.org

My idea right now is this: that it would not detract from my respect for Epicurus even if he was "not honest" in his piety -- and here is why: because the lying does not cause any harm or pain to any other person. But is seems we can't ever know whether he was "honest" or "dishonest".

Thinking further (after listening to the podcast) I must state that I firmly believe that this forum is "pro-social" as Epicureanism brings helpful (and healing) wisdom and ways to living life. And eventually we might want to organize into a non-profit. Yet that would take some time to clarify exactly what our "mission" as a non-profit would be. We would definitely want to preserve the teachings of Epicureanism, and preserve the database of writings, teachings, essays, podcasts, and helpful thread discussions. The other goal would be to have activities to "spread the word" of Epicureanism.

A few points from the podcast:

1. The quiet before - is incubation/strategizing, back and forth communication, agreeing on a common goal (not using twitter or facebook) but using genuine conversation using signal or a text chain, direct messages between a small group of people.

2. Importance of focus

3. Mechanism of spread, slowly recruiting to your world view - making it public, going beyond the coffeehouse discussions and thinking about how to make it attractive (he mentioned the use of twitter hashtags (?) as coffee shop is not useful now due to covid)

Thank you Godfrey, I like this idea of "quiet whispers" and will give a listen to this soon.

The section on page 7 - "Epicurus: a Crypto-atheist?" Is highly informative and illuminating.

Here is a quote from Sedley's paper:

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Even according to the alternative, realist interpretation, Epicurus sides with atheism to the extent that he denies all divine intervention in the running of the world, thus claiming to liberate his followers from the fear of divine wrath. But on the idealist

(p. 147) interpretation his position is one that in most theological contexts would be called fully atheistic, and indeed was so called by Epicurus’ own critics. Why, if so, would he not declare his atheism openly? Part of the answer may be that Epicurean communities, wherever they sprang up, relied on toleration from the local authorities, and a reputation for atheism, with its implied rejection of civic cults, would have hampered that objective. But in any case, Epicurus on moral grounds sincerely recommended participation in religious cults as a proper expression of respect for ideal beings, a stance which would have sat very oddly with an outright assertion that these beings do not actually exist.

Quote from SimonC

As to the original question I think it boils down to the belief that the universe is fundamentally observable

And with this there is also a similar parallel to the belief in "free will", since they are both complex ideas that can't fall into an "all or nothing" conception. To insist that we have absolute free will would be incorrect, just as insisting that the universe is absolutely fundamentally observable.

The human mind has some "hiccups" when it comes to observing things, as can be seen in optical illusions.

Thank you Cassius, and I totally see what you mean about leading with the positive.

Quote from Cassius

Epicurus taught that there are no absolute and artificial rules to which everyone must conform, but that we should live our lives by the standards that Nature herself teaches us through the senses and our feelings of pain and pleasure.

I think that would need its very own zine to explain, as would some of the other points in your post 8, as well.

As far as my post 6 above, maybe simply focusing on pleasure and the supporting text.

I can also imagine simple categories of basics presented with specific Principle Doctrines referenced.

Also thinking to explain the specific and pragmatic "what" and "why".

In the middle of a night (after being woken by the sound of the train horn) I began this possible text for a zine, based on some earlier writing by Cassius. This could be given out (or made available) at Epicurean meet-ups. Just now finished, and thinking this is pretty good introductory material as well.

"On Pleasure" -- (first draft) (possible text for a zine)

"Stranger, here you will do well to tarry, here our highest good is pleasure." This is the slogan traditionally attested to have been the "motto" of the original school of Epicurus in Athens.

Epicurus advocated living in such a way as to derive the greatest amount of pleasure in one's lifetime, yet doing so through "choices and avoidances" so as to prevent suffering from overindulgence which might detract from pleasurable experiences.

In some books, and also on some places on the internet, you may encounter people who talk as if Epicurus held "painlessness" or "tranquility" or "stillness" to be the highest good, as if they know better than Epicurus what he "should" have said. We hold this philosophical emphasis on tranquility as incorrect. 

Our Epicurean philosophy group is devoted to a classical interpretation that takes Epicurus at his word based on his canonics and epistemology. We incorporate within this classical Epicurean system all his statements about tranquility and absence of pain in such a way as to give full effect to everything he said, without rewriting Epicurus to suit modern neo-Stoic idealism about the nature of virtue and pleasure. So while tranquility and absence of pain is considered to be pleasurable, it not considered an end goal, nor is it the guide to living the best life.

We welcome and encourage you to study and participate in our group with the goal of pleasure in view. We are mindful that there may be some who disagree with the "pleasure" emphasis, and we moderate our group discussions to ensure that those of us who wish to associate with the classical view have a safe place here to study with like-minded people.

We ask that you respect our goals within this group and if you find that you are firmly of the view that the word "painlessness" represents the ideal that you wish to be associated with in studying Epicurus, then we ask that you find other places outside our group to express your views (such as on the internet and at Facebook).

For those who are new to our group or to Epicurean Philosophy, we suggest studying the Epicurean texts to understand the path of pleasure within Epicureanism.

Since there is ambiguity in interpretation, please take your time in order to thoroughly understand the subtleties.

For those with previous study of Epicureanism, citations alone may not convince anyone who has previously made up their mind on this subject. Yet with curiosity, time, and observation of one's own life experiences, the wisdom of this understanding may come to be self-evident.

And now, if you feel the desire and patience to dive into examining this topic, we suggest the study of several of the most clear statements in the ancient Epicurean texts on this issue:

(1) Epicurus' Letter to Menoeceus:

And for this cause we call pleasure the beginning and end of the blessed life. For we recognize pleasure as the first good innate in us, and from pleasure we begin every act of choice and avoidance, and to pleasure we return again, using the feeling as the standard by which we judge every good.

(2) Torquatus in Cicero's On Ends:

I will start then in the manner approved by the author of the system himself, by settling what are the essence and qualities of the thing that is the object of our inquiry; not that I suppose you to be ignorant of it, but because this is the logical method of procedure. We are inquiring, then, what is the final and ultimate Good, which as all philosophers are agreed must be of such a nature as to be the End to which all other things are means, while it is not itself a means to anything else. This Epicurus finds in pleasure; pleasure he holds to be the Chief Good, pain the Chief Evil. This he sets out to prove as follows: Every animal, as soon as it is born, seeks for pleasure, and delights in it as the Chief Good, while it recoils from pain as the Chief Evil, and so far as possible avoids it. This it does as long as it remains unperverted, at the prompting of Nature's own unbiased and honest verdict.

...

The truth of the position that pleasure is the ultimate good will most readily appear from the following illustration. Let us imagine a man living in the continuous enjoyment of numerous and vivid pleasures alike of body and of mind, undisturbed either by the presence or by the prospect of pain: what possible state of existence could we describe as being more excellent or more desirable? One so situated must possess in the first place a strength of mind that is proof against all fear of death or of pain; he will know that death means complete unconsciousness, and that pain is generally light if long and short if strong, so that its intensity is compensated by brief duration and its continuance by diminishing severity. Let such a man moreover have no dread of any supernatural power; let him never suffer the pleasures of the past to fade away, but constantly renew their enjoyment in recollection, and his lot will be one which will not admit of further improvement.

(3) Diogenes of Oinoanda, Fragment 32

If, gentlemen, the point at issue between these people and us involved inquiry into "What is the means of happiness?" and they wanted to say "the virtues" (which would actually be true), it would be unnecessary to take any other step than to agree with them about this, without more ado. But since, as I say, the issue is not "what is the means of happiness?" but "What is happiness and what is the ultimate goal of our nature?", I say both now and always, shouting out loudly to all Greeks and non-Greeks, that pleasure is the end of the best mode of life, while the virtues, which are inopportunely messed about by these people (being transferred from the place of the means to that of the end), are in no way an end, but the means to the end. Let us therefore now state that this is true, making it our starting-point.

A small zine could be used for simple presentation of a few Principle Doctrines, together with some kind of illustration.

A longer zine could be 8-1/2 x 11 sheets of paper folded in half and stapled on the spine, and could be formated in a "booklet format". I am thinking this might make more sense because more information could presented.

It will be important when making zines, to present ideas while also maintaining the overall congruity of the teachings. The following quote by Cassius is from this thread -- could be used in creating an advanced booklet format zine to be given out at meet-ups.

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1. That Epicurus was attempting to be absolutely consistent from bottom to top of his philosophy. In other words, I think he did his best to make his ethics (which seems to be the focus of this current conversation) as consistent with his physics and his epistemology as possible.
2. That means that any interpretation of Epicurus' ethics which would appear to conflict with Epicurus' physics and epistemology is not likely to be a correct interpretation of what he actually taught.
3. That his physics established without room for doubt (in his system) that:
   1. There are no supernatural gods or other forces.
   2. There is no "fate" either supernatural based or through hard determinism in physics (because of the swerve)
   3. There is no life after death (there is no immortal soul; mortal cannot unite with immortal; etc) which means we only have one life to live.
   4. There is no absolute virtue or eternal "concepts" of any kind (because there is nothing eternal in the universe except the atoms, which means that there are no eternal combinations that could form a basis for anything absolute; and because there is no "center" to the universe from which there could be a single perspective by which to judge all others; because there is no supernatural god whose perspective could be deemed to be the only correct one, etc.)
4. That his epistemology establishes without room for doubt (in his system) that:
   1. The senses are the ultimate foundation for all reasoning that can be deemed to be correct.
   2. That there is ultimately no standard for "good" except pleasure and no standard for "bad" except pain.
   3. That knowledge we can have confidence in is possible in many things, even in some important things that we can't observe directly, such as items 1-4 above. However omniscience about everything we might like to speculate about is not possible and not therefore we can't hold our own conclusions up to a standard of omniscience.

I just remembered that this came up in a different thread, and found this good outline for a zine, by Don:

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Okay, so here's my quick rough draft of a basic outline of what could be covered in an 8-page zine from a folded 8.5x11 paper. Each page would need illustrations and be eye-catching. In any case, for your consideration:

1 General invitation/intro/cover

2 Who is Epicurus?

3 Living in a material world (physics, atoms and void, etc)

4 Knowing what you know (Canon, evidence from senses)

5 Choosing the best life (Ethics, personal responsibility)

6 If it feels good, consider the consequences (all pleasure feels good, some pleasures aren't chosen)

7 Epicureanism vs Stoicism

8 Where do I find more information?

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I am thinking about making zines which could be handed out at meet-up groups (or any where). Zines could feature short sayings and/or basic outlines of some good points in Epicurean philosophy.

If you have anything you think should be in a zine, please add it here to this thread. And you are welcome to create your own zines as well, and share them on this thread.

To read about the history and art of making a zine, click here.

For a simple folded one page zine, click here.

Meditations on the importance of friendship -- this writing by Michele Pinto (which I just discovered today) starts off with an idea of solitary happiness and then moves forward to cite Epicurean references on friendship and the importance of friendship.

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Epicurus traveled to friends, and wrote letters such as these: "I am quite ready, if you do not come to see me, to spin thrice on my own axis and be propelled to any place that you, including Themista, agree upon." (U 125), "The way in which you have provided for me in the matter of sending the grain was godlike and magnificent, and you have given tokens of your regard for me that reach to high heaven." (U 183).

Epicurus and his friends worked to build a network of relations throughout Greece, so much so that the wise man of the Garden came to sing: "Friendship dances around the world, bidding us all to awaken to the recognition of happiness!” (VS 52).

Friendship is therefore an essential ingredient in the recipe of happiness, so much so that Epicurus no longer speaks of the happiness of the wise, but of the happiness of the community of friends: "As many as possess the power to procure complete immunity from their neighbours, these also live most pleasantly with one another, since they have the most certain pledge of security, and, after they have enjoyed the fullest intimacy, they do not lament the previous departure of a dead friend, as though he were to be pitied." (PD 40) and "The noble soul occupies itself with wisdom and friendship; of these, the one is a mortal good, the other immortal." (SV 78).

Blog Article

Michele Pinto: "Friendship: A Natural And Necessary Desire"

Inspired by the considerations on the Epicurean friendship of Phillp Mithis in the book "The Ethical Theory of Epicurus - The pleasures of Invulnerability," I want to summarize the thought of Epicurus on friendship, trying to use his own words as much as possible, and adding mine where necessary. I am indebted to Carlo Diano because his thematic collection of Epicurus's maxims was essential. The first Epicurean festival, whose general theme was about friendship, was also very useful. I thank

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Cassius

November 1, 2019 at 3:38 PM

For easier reading, here is my list in simple text format:

1. Pleasant sensations - sights, sounds, flavors, scents, skin sensations

2. Pleasant relief - from hunger/thirst; hot/cold; sickness/pain; fear/worry; fatigue/stress

3. Enjoyment of vigor and health - in bodily movement or exertion

4. Enjoyment of novelty - of sensation, new places, new friends, new information, new learning

5. Enjoyment of possessions and the act of acquiring the objects of necessity, well-being, security, or enjoyment

6. Enjoyment of skill, craft, or work - competence of control of tools, technology, or knowledge

7. Enjoyment of friendship - conversation, commonality, emotional intimacy and support, and mutual fun

8. Enjoyment of community - participation, acceptance, and belonging

9. Enjoyment of sports and games

10. Enjoyment of aesthetics - art, music, theater, world culture

11. Enjoyment of pleasant memories

12. Enjoyment of imagination and anticipation

13. Enjoyment of leadership and teaching

14. Enjoyment of giving - service and aid

15. Enjoyment of loving and gratitude

16. Enjoyment of relaxation - solitude, meditation, sleep

My list of pleasures is very different than Bentham's, and in case anyone is curious about Bentham's list, you can find it here:

An Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation - Econlib

The First Edition of this work was printed in the year 1780; and first published in 1789. The present Edition is a careful reprint of ‘A New Edition, corrected…

www.econlib.org

As a starting point, I looked at Bentham's list of pleasures, but greatly modified the elements. This is just one conception. Not all of these will apply to everyone (nor appeal to everyone) and this is still a work in progress. Will appreciate any feedback.

Instead of a Buddhist wheel of Samsara, my next idea for a drawing is an Epicurean wheel of Pleasure!

Coming soon, and please enjoy your anticipation

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Interoception is the perception of sensations from inside the body and includes the perception of physical sensations related to internal organ function such as heart beat, respiration, satiety, as well as the autonomic nervous system activity related to emotions

That is a great article Don (I read a portion and definitely want to read all of it).

Here is a quick sketch of something less "woo-woo" -- though it leaves a lot out and would be open to hearing feedback or additional ideas for labels, etc. And may need to show how to integrate of feelings, emotions, sensations, desires, etc.

It just came to me that there could be a kind of map of pleasure in the body, based on the chakra system. Seeing this as a mix of mental awareness, emotion, and physical sensation. Even as materialists we can have a kind of understanding of "spirit" as arising out of, and dependent upon, the material elements. And would also say that chakras need not be something "otherworldly" but just a way of thinking about the combined energies of the body and mind.

I found this article, which covers all the chakras:

The 7 Chakras and Their Connection to Pleasure

A brief intro

staceyherrera.medium.com

Here are some good excerpts:

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Pleasure is the most sought after feeling on the planet. It is entirely subjective; no two people experience it the same way. A pleasurable event can not be duplicated. Yet it can be experienced, in some form, over and over again.

The human body is designed to feel. Bundles of nerves and miles of synapses make it possible to perceive unimaginable sensations. Pleasure and pain, hot and cold, comfort, and dis-ease can all be felt and recognized, sometimes simultaneously. ....

....

When things appear to be spinning out of control and your instinct is to constrict, pleasure invites you to expand.

Permitting yourself to experience pleasure, not despite, but because of life’s stresses, is an act of radical self-care.

Relish in the flavors of good food. Notice your ears perking when you hear the musical sound of laughter. Feel the hairs on your arms prickle to life when a gentle breeze caresses you. See the beauty in little things: weeds breaking through concrete, puffy clouds against a blue sky. Find comfort in the scent of fresh bread or the smell of your beloved.

Even now, in the midst of so much uncertainty, pleasure is still medicine. 🙏🏾

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I haven't read the full article from the first post, but just the excerpts shown. This thread brings up a lots of good issues, and good contrasts:

I still believe that Epicureanism can be understood and applied in two ways, according to one's disposition:

1) pleasure (and pain) as guiding choice and avoidance, and living a full social lifestyle, from an extroverted disposition and a physically visceral experience.

2) pleasure (and pain) as guiding choice and avoidance, and living a quiet and reserved lifestyle, from an introverted disposition and a mentally rich experience.

So how you choose to live most pleasantly is coming from your in-born nature (or nurtured) disposition.

Also, there are some of us who have come through early life trauma, and so we need a more "therapeutic" approach -- this means that without a certain amount of tranquility we will feel too troubled to fully experience pleasure. Also, if we are confronted by unkind, or anxious, troubled people, then that can pull us down. So it depends on circumstances. And we need support from a gentle and loving Epicurean community.

I will need to re-read various posts above again, and may say more

Quote from EricR

It is this question that holds me back from buying into EP fully since I see other ideas such as the eastern notion that "all is Mind (consciousness or spirit)" as among those other ways of seeing the structure of reality.

I will quietly and gently ask you to consider:

Will understanding the hidden structure of reality help you live a happy life? Will it help you make good decisions? Will it give you motivation to pursue what is natural and necessary for happiness?

About my own experience -- I found that "eastern notions" of reality caused me to feel like giving up on life (no need to do, just be) and so they didn't work as a path toward happiness, for me.

And yet maybe for you, there is something that does work for you in "eastern notions of reality"...and if for you it leads to a happy and content life, then you should continue on with it

Quote from EricR

So, do Epicureans know there are only atoms and void, or do they believe this.

I think of reality as a "fully material universe" -- just as Don put it. So no heaven, no rebirth, just this very life, with all its simplicity, feeling the body, feeling the breath, and everything continually unfolding in awareness.

Maybe an Epicurean would say "Life is body and mind joyfully dancing toward pleasure, and calmly walking away from pain."