Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Cassius

We haven't talked about cognitive behavioral therapy in a long while, and i am not up on the details. In general, it's definitely more related to Stoicism, and in fact the leading internet Stoic, Donald Robertson, is primarily (from what I gather) a CBT teacher.

Oh wow, I didn't know that.

For myself, I just notice that occassionally I get caught in some kind of circular thinking which makes me feel sad. And it has to do with something that I want, but it is difficult to get, or it is something that I may never be able to have. And then I might think: "If I can't have (xyz) then I can't be happy in life." Which is followed by "And there is probably something wrong with me and that is why I can't get it/have it."

So REBT is a way to talk yourself out of your false beliefs about reality. And yet it leaves a sort of empty feeling.

But if this particular "thing" that I want is something which I feel would fall into the Epicurean category of "necessary for happiness" -- and if there was an Epicurean community, then someone could step forward to help resolve the situation, or as a community everyone could put their heads together to figure out a solution. So if we are living in this modern isolated world, and thus there is CBT to deal with the modern world problems, problems coming out of consumerism and individuality, and divisive or guilting political and religious ideologies. And people go through life with way too serious of an attitude.

In addition to the above post, here is more. There isn't anything in Epicureanism like this, but this could be helpful for dealing with feelings of worry which can get in the way of the enjoyment of pleasures.

Quote

Here are the questions to ask yourself, outlined in our Disputing Irrational Beliefs Handout:

1. What is the self-defeating irrational belief I would like to dispute and reduce?
2. Am I able to support this belief with objective facts?
3. What proof is there that this belief is false?
4. Is there any proof that this belief is true?
5. What is the worst possible outcome that could occur if I fail to get what I believe I must? What’s the worst possible outcome if I do get what I believe I mustn’t? What other negative things could happen to me?
6. What positive things could I cause to happen if my undesirable scenarios pan out?

Source: https://positivepsychology.com/rebt-technique…ses-worksheets/

In the past I studied this mode of therapy and attempted to apply it to myself. One is supposed to do this with a certified therapist rather than on one's own. But I did find some benefit from it from studying it. I think this might be compatible with Epicureanism? ( even if it might be more likely associated with stoicism). What do you all think?

Here is an brief over-view:

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REBT is the pioneering form of cognitive behavior therapy developed by Dr. Albert Ellis in 1955. REBT is an action-oriented approach to managing cognitive, emotional, and behavioral disturbances.

According to REBT, it is largely our thinking about events that leads to emotional and behavioral upset. With an emphasis on the present, individuals are taught how to examine and challenge their unhelpful thinking which creates unhealthy emotions and self-defeating/self-sabotaging behaviors.

REBT is a practical approach to assist individuals in coping with and overcoming adversity as well as achieving goals. REBT places a good deal of its focus on the present. REBT addresses attitudes, unhealthy emotions (e.g., unhealthy anger, depression, anxiety, guilt, etc.) and maladaptive behaviors (e.g., procrastination, addictive behaviors, aggression, unhealthy eating, sleep disturbance, etc.) that can negatively impact life satisfaction. REBT practitioners work closely with individuals, seeking to help identify their individual set of beliefs (attitudes, expectations and personal rules) that frequently lead to emotional distress.

REBT then provides a variety of methods to help people reformulate their dysfunctional beliefs into more sensible, realistic and helpful ones by employing the powerful REBT technique called “disputing.” Ultimately, REBT helps individuals to develop a philosophy and approach to living that can increase their effectiveness and satisfaction at work, in living successfully with others, in parenting and educational settings, in making our community and environment healthier, and in enhancing their own emotional health and personal welfare.

https://albertellis.org/rebt-cbt-therapy/

I wouldn't want to say that anyone should do this on their own, so this is just a reference to a possible mode of therapy. And I am re-visiting it now, due to feeling some life stressors and circumstances which have me feeling off-kilter.

In some sense this is like "worm-wood" medicine. But as Epicureans we need to use some honey with it -- so to be gentle and kind and give oneself some Epicurean pleasure, while applying this.

This link has more specifics: REBT

Hi reneliza,

Welcome to the forum!

There is so much material and interesting threads here that you will find of help in the study of Epicurean Philosophy.

You might like to check out the FAQ section for quick answers to common questions, and short summaries as well:

Frequently Asked Questions - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

Quote from Pacatus

"The sweetest kind of life"!!!

The trick is figuring out how to do it when you don't live in Italy, lol -- "Le dolce vita!"

Spending more time outdoors:

This is good stuff! And I can imagine it all being assembled into a short Epicurean reader -- titled as "Epicurean Pharmakos" (will put this on my to-do list).

Quote from Cassius

"I will read his works," said Theon, "and question the writer.

This brings up a question, which may be answered somewhere else already, yet here it is --

Back then it was said that Epicurus did not teach publicly. And we know he wrote many books, and copies were given out (or sold?) And this was a way to convey the teachings, and also this might have served the purpose of preventing errors in understanding, or errors in incorrect repetition. [Think of the game of "telephone" in which children sit in a circle and whisper a sentence into the ear of the person sitting next to them, and by the end of the circle that phrase is very different than the original].

The question is: Did Epicurus actually have people read the teachings themselves instead of giving lectures?

This is great to see what is happening over on Facebook!

This discussion points to the many helpful aspects of Epicureanism and practical application.

This entry was a one was good:

"A philosophy for community not individual supermen made out of stone. Meet friends, have good conversation..."

And this one:

"I sincerely think we should discuss forming groups irl to build some sense of Epicurean community."

As we here are planning for a new Wednesday night Zoom format -- I'd like to see that start up at the very latest on May 11th. We need to seize the day on it -- not worry so much about having it "perfectly" planned or "perfectly" named.

"Wednesday Night Epicurean Zoom Community" will hopefully be starting up soon!

Thank you Scott, and I forgot that I had that dance video blog, though nothing is posted to it currently. I thought I could do dance improv to a reading of Lucretius, or maybe do a Greek dance. I discovered the perfect back drop!

This will be a work in progress, so this is just a rough draft.

My Personal Epicurean Life Philosophy -- April 27, 2022

I understand the existence of everything best as a materialist universe. The notion of God (and all gods) is to be understood only as the idea of a being (or beings) which is (are) blessed and immortal, and they are not involved, able to assist, or influence human beings. God (and all gods) are not supernatural. (This paragraph edit: 01/03/25).

I reflect on this materialist universe through the modern scientific understanding of the nature of the cosmos.

Whatever appears or feels like a spirit or soul within me will cease to exist when I die. The sense of self and consciousness depends on a physical body in order to be experienced. Also, there is no heaven or hell after death, but only the dissolution of consciousness as the bodily processes cease to function.

My personal goal in life is finding enjoyment in the sweetest kind of life. This for me means finding and maintaining friendships with like-minded people who also seek to enjoy the sweetest kind of life. I also strive to improve my ability to be a good friend to others, for the sake of mutual enjoyment.

The sweetest kind of life comes about with both action and non-action -- diligently striving at times toward goals, but at other times surrendering or finding solace in stillness and quietude. I am able to find a sense of engagement, flow, and ease through various personal creative projects.

The sweetest kind of life must be nurtured into being -- this takes effort, but the effort will be felt within myself as well as shared with others. I believe it is very important to cultivate an attitude of optimism, gratitude, joy, and smiles and hugs.

The sweetest kind of life also includes contemplation -- for me this is a combination of study of wisdom, and then pondering how to impliment wisdom. In the past I have studied various wisdom teachings, and now I continue to do so through a primary focus on the study of Epicurean Philosophy, to learn and understand, and also to be able to teach it to others. Out of contemplation comes philosophy for the sake of living the sweetest life.

Quote from Cassius

Yes I agree that there are many options that could be made to work. I joke in mentioning "nudist colony"

I would say that not so much a nudist colony, but rather a "Clothing Optional Resort"

After I write my best seller on Epicurean Philosophy, I could travel to Palm Springs (or probably they have them in Florida) and teach philosophy seminars -- that is, when I need a break from my "Epicurean Garden Bed and Breakfast"

(Sometimes brainstorming ideas get a bit carried away, lol, but that is how the best ideas happen, when you just let the creativity flow).

Yes, the "Garden as Prep School" is another good take on things.

Disken Clay in "The Athenian Garden" writes:

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Epicurus' Garden was not a school. Seneca had it right when he commented: 'it was not the school of Epicurus that made Metrodorus, Hermarchus and Polyaenus great men but their shared life'.

Just because there is not yet an "Epicurean Garden as Refuge" in existence now, doesn't mean that I or someone else can't create one.

I am in an transitional phase in my life, but eventually I will move to a location where I can and must create something for myself (and for others). Since I want to surround myself with people of like-minded philosophical worldview -- as well as be free from and safe from my family and their guilting/fearful "Nothing but the blood of Jesus" ways of thinking.

At 51 years of age, I have no spouse, and do not have my own children, so that is also why I want to create a philosophy Garden. I am all alone, while everyone else is partnered up already. The effects of Covid have further insulated people into small family units. People are very busy with their work, and spouse and children, and have very little free time for friends, let alone making new friends.

My own possible idea for the future -- perhaps it could be an "Epicurean Bed and Breakfast" where people can come, stay, and study in the library, and enjoy the outdoors (perhaps a rose garden) - advertized on online on airbnb for a good nightly rate -- but it would be free for good friends to come and visit

We can only imagine what things might have been like back in the time of Epicurus. And now here we are, only in the beginning stages of imagining and creating an Epicurean Philosophy Garden. The current task has many challenges, but we must continue to press forward. We have this little corner of cyberspace in which to build our online Garden, and from this we can move out into the world to create something even more pleasurable.

Last night, feeling some ability to write...first a quote of some study material and then some of my thoughts follow:

The Garden as Refuge

Quote:

"I grant that although mental pleasure brings us joy and mental pain brings us trouble, yet each feeling takes its rise in the body and is dependent on the body, though it does not follow that the pleasures and pains of the mind do not greatly surpass those of the body. With the body indeed we can perceive only what is present to us at the moment, but with the mind the past and future also. For granting that we feel just as great pain when our body is in pain, still mental pain may be very greatly intensified if we imagine some everlasting and unbounded evil to be menacing us. And we may apply the same argument to pleasure, so that it is increased by the absence of such fears."

--Torquatus section, from Cicero's "On Ends"

Let us imagine the community of philosophers at the time of Epicurus. It most likely was not like a commune, but rather more like a daily meeting place. Everyone was fairly certain that they would see their fellow Epicurean students on a regular basis, and perhaps on a daily basis. This anticipation for the comradery was a kind of pleasure in itself. There also was the sense of near certitude that Epicurus the teacher would also be present, and his guiding words would bring new insights. All this would create a sense of community, and a sense of refuge and reliance on each other's friendships, as well as the enjoyment of on-going discussions.

In this way, going to the Garden itself was a kind of medicine, as each person could count on the sense of friendship and engagement that could daily be found within it's gates. So the followers of Epicurus were freed from the fear of abandonment and the fear of loneliness, and freed from the anxiety of uncertainty as to when next they might see their friends, for they knew they would easily and soon renew their joy of their shared presence, happy discussions, and shared mutual worldviews.

I can imagine the following being words of a student back in the time of Epicurus:

What primordial urges we hide within ourselves, and deny their very existence. Our natural humanity has this tender craving for friendship, and now here we can come to find a refuge and a medicine to satisfy our long-lasting thirst. And some may feel this more strongly than others. This feeling is difficult to describe, but reflected in the very nature of infants and animals. Just as the helpless infant continually seeks for the face of its mother to feel safe and secure, and just as the loyal dog wines to be reunited to the presence of its owner, so too within our own hearts we hear that secret hidden calling to be with those we love, and we feel a yearning for our fellow students, and most of all for our great teacher Epicurus.

I invite anyone to share thoughts, reactions, ideas, Epicurean quotes, art, etc. that come up regarding this

Here is a short new blog, just posted, which proposes answers to the following:

Why study Epicurean philosophy?

How does Epicurean philosophy help one live a better life?

Life Enhancing Benefits of Epicurean Philosophy

Why study Epicurean philosophy? There could be many reasons why a given individual might want to study this philosophy. 1) An enjoyment of...

epicureanphilosophyblog.blogspot.com

Quote from Don

That last part (underlined) sounds to me like the the images are coming from the temples and the images are coming from whatever is in the temples.

I found this line of thinking intriguing, maybe simply because its novel to me. But maybe that's one reason Epicurus was able to enthusiastically advocating taking part in the regular worship of the Greek gods. It was the statues of the gods, the images in the temple as well as seeing the statues themselves that gave the Epicurean access to an image in the mind of a literally larger-than-life, blessed, incorruptible being to which the Epicurean could aspire.

A little late to this thread, replying to Don's post number 47. Having just been to the Parthenon replica in Nashville just two days ago. I think that statues do have an effect on the human psyche. As a modern, I am completely innocent/lacking in belief of ancient Greek religion, but there is something that comes to life through statues (could this be why in Islam all images and also all reproductions of living things are banned?) So the creation of this statue brings Athena to life. It can't affect me the way it might affect someone who is culturally inculcated, so there is no sense of reverence. The sense of what this is goes beyond words and thoughts. Yet perhaps I am uniquely affected and others might not feel anything at all (it's a very subtle feeling anyway).

Quote from Matt

You can probably infer from my veiled language what the change is. But it’s astonishing the hold that some circumstances have on us and how long we are willing to be miserable for.

I have a certain understanding of "free will" that may or may not be purely Epicurean, and sometime in the future may go further into that -- but basically be kind to yourself and forgive yourself, and congratulations on your spring renewal, as sounds like something finally shifted in your life!!!

From my own experience, I have found that sometimes it can take some time to figure things out and find a way forward to a better life. And then a small shift begins a quantum leap. Yet life is a mix of experiences -- in our human bodies we will all feel pleasure and pain, both physical and mental. As we use reason and wisdom to move toward pleasure, we can begin to trust ourselves and life -- we can trust that whatever might come in the future, we will find pleasure and enjoyment, and move toward a fullness of pleasure and joy in life.

I found this article maybe a week ago and finally posting as it presents some interesting ideas, though I myself do not necessarily agree with everything in it. It might illuminate a need to work with our Epicurean definition of pleasure, and also the ways in which non-Epicureans might get "hung-up" on the subtlety of our philosophy.

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2022/03/enjoyment-not-pleasure-creates-happiness/627583/

Here is an interesting excerpt:

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Pleasure can be a boon or a burden, depending on our relationship to it. It can leaven laborious days, or lead us to waste them. The pleasures of a mild stimulant such as caffeine can be harmless or even beneficial, but the pleasures of amphetamines can be deadly.

This creates a puzzle for the happiness seeker, who must navigate between the twin perils of puritanism and indulgence, leading to the much-dreaded rule of moderation, which is more or less the philosophy of leaving any party as soon as it gets really good. Fortunately, there is a better way to solve the puzzle: To stay at the party without letting it get out of control, choose enjoyment instead.

Enjoyment and pleasure are terms often used interchangeably, but they are not the same thing. Pleasure happens to you; enjoyment is something that you create through your own effort. Pleasure is the lightheadedness you get from a bit of grain alcohol; enjoyment is the satisfaction of a good wine, properly understood. Pleasure is addictive and animal; enjoyment is elective and human.

I personally think that one can actively create both pleasure and enjoyment. And also both pleasure and enjoyment can simply "happen" when the circumstances line up in their favor. Pleasure is felt in the body and enjoyment is felt in the mind, and so enjoyment is a mental process of appreciating pleasure. Also, as Epicureans, we use reason to discern what leads to a good long-term result of our "pleasure choices", and short-term pleasures are good as well, when they are life enhancing.

There are other good points which may make sense or not. So if anyone reads this and has ideas or comments, please share.

Mathitis Kipouros regarding Maslow's hierarchy of needs, I found this article which gave some interesting points, as well as a revised pyramid which replaced self-actualization with parenting

The article says regarding the original pyramid:

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The needs described in Maslow's theory appear to be universal. However, research shows that the order in which these needs are met had little impact on people's satisfaction with life.

....The authors of the article suggested that while self-actualization is still significant and interesting, it is not an evolutionarily fundamental need.

Is Maslow's Famous Hierarchy of Needs Still Relevant Today?

The hierarchy of needs has a history of wide acceptance despite little supporting evidence. Does the theory hold up or is it time for an update?

www.verywellmind.com

It seems to me that Epicureanism goes beyond needs to put a value judgment on finding enjoyment in life -- we are out in the garden of the world actively looking for flowers and not for weeds. And the Tetrapharmakos says: "what is good is easy to get".

I hope to eventually get more of an understanding around Epicurus' ideas/beliefs about the gods. In the meantime I found this interesting article on impiety, but lots of Greek words (maybe Don might enjoy decifering) and I have only read first few paragraphs of introduction.

Here is an excerpt:

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Impiety is an offence, an ἀδικία – i.e., to put it crudely, a wrong that you might do and that is likely to be punished in some way.6 Imperative formulations used in preventive laws, such as ἀσεβὴς ἔστω, ἀσεβείτω and ἔνοχος ἔστω ἀσεβείᾳ, categorize a given ἀδικία as an impiety, but also imply that from now on the culprit will be regarded as impious, and this status will legitimize the application of sanctions from other members of the community. In other words, ἀσεβὴς ἔστω, “let him be impious”, should be understood as a shorter version of “let him be punished as one who is regarded as impious”.7 Far from being a simple linguistic twist, the connection between committing an ἀσέβεια and being ἀσεβής has not insignificant consequences for how we should understand impiety and its implications in Greek society, as well as the Greek legal system in general.

Impiety in Epigraphic Evidence

The concept of impiety (ἀσέβεια) in ancient Greek religion is complex. Firstly, definitions provided by ancient authors themselves point out, as potential…

journals.openedition.org

My idea right now is this: that it would not detract from my respect for Epicurus even if he was "not honest" in his piety -- and here is why: because the lying does not cause any harm or pain to any other person. But is seems we can't ever know whether he was "honest" or "dishonest".

Thinking further (after listening to the podcast) I must state that I firmly believe that this forum is "pro-social" as Epicureanism brings helpful (and healing) wisdom and ways to living life. And eventually we might want to organize into a non-profit. Yet that would take some time to clarify exactly what our "mission" as a non-profit would be. We would definitely want to preserve the teachings of Epicureanism, and preserve the database of writings, teachings, essays, podcasts, and helpful thread discussions. The other goal would be to have activities to "spread the word" of Epicureanism.