Posts by Kalosyni

I am not sure we need allegories or parables for explaining Epicureanism. It might be best to be more straight-forward on most ideas within Epicureanism.

I found definitions:

"There are a lot of stylistic devices that are used in literature. Two examples are allegories and parables. Both tools are used to help someone present important messages, key lessons, and linguistic tools. Even though many people believe an allegory and a parable or the same thing, there are actually some major differences. An allegory is usually an image, poem, or story whose interpretation can communicate a hidden meaning. In contrast, a parable is a simple story that is used to illustrate moral or spiritual lessons." Source

This thread started out with the idea to create new forms of expressing Epicurean philosophy -- to make something analogous to Plato's "Allegory of the Cave" --- but yet illustrating Epicurean ideas. Then, since I didn't fully understand Plato's cave allegory, I got curious about it. After reading about it on Wikipedia, I then found this (a take-off from Plato's Cave) which I think could be food for thought as we think more about what allegory is, and if it could be used for Epicurean ideas.

Just for reference:

Allegory of the cave - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Some thoughts on PD39...since it has come up in this thread...and apparently I am incorrectly interpreting the meaning of this PD.

"The man who has best ordered the element of disquiet arising from external circumstances has made those things that he could akin to himself, and the rest at least not alien; but with all to which he could not do even this, he has refrained from mixing, and has expelled from his life all which it was of advantage to treat thus." PD39 (Bailey)

"The person who has put together the best means for confidence about external threats is one who has become familiar with what is possible and at least not unfamiliar with what is not possible, but who has not mixed with things where even this could not be managed and who has driven away anything that is not advantageous." PD39 (St. Andre)

This is one in which it would be good to be able to directly translate from the original. Here is how I interpret this PD regarding "external circumstances".There is a chance that an astroid will hit earth and cause an apocalypse. Also, a coronal mass ejection (CME) could wipe out all electrical systems, satellites, and the internet.

So I see this PD as dealing with threats and how you make peace with these threats -- the understanding of those threats -- what is true and what is not true about those threats. About a year and a half ago, my mom was telling me that an astroid was soon going to hit the earth. Her Christian friend had given her "reliable" information about the Apophis astroid, and that scientists had made an error in their calculations -- that the astroid was going to definitely hit earth. But instead of taking any "bait" on this, I calmly replied: "Oh that's interesting", and proceeded to do research about an nearby astroids. After my research, I was sufficently reassured regarding the unlikelihood of an astroid collision. (Also knowing that there is a still a future chance of impact by an astroid, but not for a long time to come).

Regarding coronal mass ejections, I also researched this, but what I learned was not encouraging -- there is a high likelihood of this causing problems if/when it occurs, and at what level of intensity. So this is one in which we should be ready to recognize the signs of this and realize how it will affect all of us -- and make peace with it. Enjoy life now, prudently, knowing that the continuance of life has uncertainties.

So I see this as expelling mis-information and understanding the natural world.

In a post-podcast Episode 155 discussion, the question came up: "do our senses correctly perceive reality?"

Here is an interesting idea that we have evolved for fitness and not to correctly see reality:

There are many videos of Donald Hoffman explaining this idea, a possibly some are better than others. If I find something in addition to this I will add to this thread.

Brief presentation on Epicurus and Lucretius -- Introduction to Philosophy, at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, BC, Canada

Welcome @Lori

Note: In order to minimize spam registrations, all new registrants must respond in this thread to this welcome message within 72 hours of its posting, or their account is subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself -- tell us a little about yourself and what prompted your interest in Epicureanism -- and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

I'm thinking that we need a thread for encouragement as well as outreach (possible facebook posts). This could be ideas for flyers or brief summaries. Also anything of an Epicurean "therapeutic" nature.

Here is a graphic I made today:

Wishing everyone a Happy New Year filled with hedone and eudaimonia!

Welcome Plantpierogi

Quote from Joshua

Since I've only focused on sensations in the chart I'm going to restrain myself to one thing right now--which is that I question whether error really does enter in that late in the process. I think there are numerous visual tests that demonstrate that the brain starts lying pretty much immediately upon receiving input. The retinal blind spot test is a good example. Rather than reporting two gaps in the visual field,

I see you've talked about observing a round tower vs a square tower at a distance. Now what about the sensations of pain or pleasure? These come in through ears, eyes, nose, tongue, and skin -- and these sense faculties always tell the truth regarding pain or pleasure.

Quote from Cassius

The podcasting team had a good conversation during the last recording session but given the importance of the subject we decided to postpone the recording of the first program on Chapter Seven till our next recording session. We expect to be back on a normal schedule next week.

The good topic of conversation which occurred was on the importance of friendship, while we waited for a podcast member to join. There were some good ideas brought up for future exploration. The postponement was due to a technological glitch -- an alarm clock malfunction -- so our window of time was too short to dive into the anticipated DeWitt material.

Off the top of your head Cassius, can you remember what we discussed regarding friendship?

Welcome to the forum!

Moving forward with The "Why" -- I'll start with my questioning beliefs regarding God -- after being raised Christian, in my teens I came to the question of why God allows suffering in innocent children -- and this caused me to doubt, and then eventually I moved on to atheism.

And I just today found this image on the internet of the "Epicurean paradox", which sums it up:

Gathering my thoughts -- Another Outline - December 23, 2022

As an Epicurean, here is what I believe:

--That there is no God who created the Universe, or is involved in human affairs, both in this life or after death.

--That the soul only exists as a phenomenon tied to the physical body, so it ceases to exist when we die. There is no heaven or hell after death.

--That there is matter which is composed of atoms, just as in modern science. And it follows natural causes, and is subject to natural laws. So that supernatural beliefs are incorrect regarding function of matter and the universe. Matter is subject to physical causes and conditions and my thoughts cannot physically affect the outcome of things -- only direct actions affect the physical world.

--That creating and living the most enjoyable life is a worthy goal. This means that I take charge of doing what needs to be done to set up the circumstances which will bring about the most pleasant and enjoyable life according to my unique personality and feelings. Other people may require differing elements or modes of living to experience an enjoyable life, and it is up to my own self to direct my pursuit of happiness -- no one else can do it for me. And therefore how I go about doing this may differ from others.

--That using wisdom and evaluating choices and avoidances to acheive the best outcome is an important part of creating a pleasant life.

--That understanding the nature of pain, pleasure, and desire is necessary for making good choices and avoidances. And that a pleasant life and a pleasurable life are equally important.

--That it is good to have good friends who share this same worldview and who wisely consider their actions in creating a pleasant and pleasurable life. And that the sharing of pleasure in friendship is a pleasure.

The Why -- This is important if others question my beliefs or if I am needing to explain to someone what I believe (more on this in the future).

Quote from Don

And why do they want to do that? What is their motivation?

Fear and lack of true friendship.

Quote from Todd

choose the alternative we imagine will be most satisfactory

Also, the word "satisfactory" doesn't fully encompass pleasure, happiness, sweetness in life. I have to contemplate and consider that these are my goals, otherwise the value system of "appearances" (status, wealth, high fashion, etc) can distract me from living the best life given my means.

Quote from Todd

So everyone is always choosing pleasure, in the broad sense that we always choose the alternative we imagine will be most satisfactory.

I can't completely agree with this, since you used the word "everyone". Some people do make choices out of how they want to appear to others, so as to gain respect. And then if that is to impress those who chose according to "God's will" , then this is based on idealistic virtue not on pleasurable outcomes.

Edit note: I should have said: so as to try to gain respect or in an attempt to gain respect

Todd, I am sensing perhaps a bit of resistence toward pleasure? And maybwe there could something deeper going on in your resistence? Possibly you may be uncertain if you can trust your inner sense of pleasure?

We subjectively know what pleasure is, just as honey is sweet. And as Epicureans, we remember that we don't always choose for immediate pleasure, but we sometimes make choices that will lead to greater pleasure in the future. This means that we at times will be using trial and error and will observe the results from our choices -- and evaluate which choices were best -- and then we learn. For example: I used to drink more beer and wine, but then as I applied "choices and avoidances" then I could see that I actually had more pleasure by abstaining or only drinking small quanties. And also this points to both pleasure and pain are considered in choices and avoidances. What we have left of Epicurus' teachings is sometimes not as clear about all of this, but over time I believe we can develop the philosophy so that it is much easier to explain and discuss.