Posts by Kalosyni

We need to balance it all with the fact that before modern medicine the infant/mother mortality rate and the mortality rate in general was much higher. Also in modern times, more safety for more people (much less warfare, although depending on when/where you are living).

On the flip side, you could say that modern science has resulted in germ-warfare and nuclear weapons. Also, modern medicine has the ability to resuscitate an unconscious person and prolong "life" (in a vegetative state). Unless you have a "Do not attempt resuscitation order", CPR will be performed on you (no matter how old you are or your condition - read about it here) and even though it has a low likelihood of success in certain conditions.

We must remember the Epicurean idea that it isn't the longest life but the most pleasant (whenever discussion of the doomsday clock comes up).

Quote from Rolf

That said, I think we can both agree that ice cream is not necessary for a pleasant life.

What!!!? Ice cream isn't necessary? (lol ) That's like saying sex isn't necessary!

For the most pleasant life I would recommend both.

But I think you could still be happy with vanilla yogurt and massages.

Quote from Rolf

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you Kalosyni, and please correct me if I am, but it seems that your definition leads to an ascetic view of Epicureanism in which we should only pursue what is strictly necessary.

Lol, I was thinking the other way around...lol, that you Rolf were coming from an ascetic view (due to your comment about ice-cream).

Quote from Rolf

Movies are clearly not necessary for happiness or survival - countless people have been happy and healthy without them. And yet watching movies is not an inherently harmful or empty desire. In which case, what are movies other than natural but unnecessary desires?

I think that I talked about movies in another thread (but have forgotten exactly what I said, and forgotten what thread that was in). But this is a good time to talk about it again...because I would question whether or not harm might come about to an individual if they were to watch a lot of movies about people who desire and chase after great wealth, status, power, control, perfect beauty, perfect safety, or non-stop sensory variations...but it will depend on the person and the circumstances...so no absolute rules.

I wouldn't call myself ascetic...because I hold to Principal Doctrine 8 as being very important:

PD08: "No pleasure is bad in itself; but the means of paying for some pleasures bring with them disturbances many times greater than the pleasures themselves."

Quote from Kalosyni

And yet I see it differently, as "unnecessary for survival" - and you only label something as natural/unnecessary when it is difficult/impossible to get or depleting/reckless to ones resources.

Because if something is necessary for survival, then you would endure pain and struggle for the sake of attaining it.

Quote from Rolf

I don’t know if I agree that natural/unnecessary desires are “difficult or impossible to attain”, or that they should be viewed negatively at all. From what I understand, this category simply refers to things that are pleasurable but not strictly necessary for happiness.

"pleasurable but not strictly necessary for happiness"... maybe the word "optional"?.

And yet I see it differently, as "unnecessary for survival" - and you only label something as natural/unnecessary when it is difficult/impossible to get or depleting/reckless to ones resources.

Something that causes pain would go into the "empty" category (as in empty of pleasure).

Ooops, meant to type in that my "mistaken" idea of just two categories was in post 16.

Okay, regarding my "mistaken" idea in post 22 post 16 above (of only two categories)...now revising back to three, lol:

• natural/necessary = necessary for life and for well-being
• natural/unnecessary = difficult or impossible to attain, and beyond ones means or recklessly depleting ones needed resources in order to attain
• empty = greed for status/wealth/power/control/perfection/non-stop sensory variations

Quote from Cassius

But do not there remain very many desires that are not easy and not affordable to attain, and which we would go on pursuing forever without limit if we did not identify their nature as such?

The things that are not easy and not affordable are also "empty", such that they come about from a desire for status or control (a futile attempt at controling circumstances to make them "perfect" in some way (perfectly beautiful, perfectly safe).

Quote from Rolf

What about the desires that are natural but not strictly necessary for survival and well-being?

I would now say that it is best in our modern times to not have "natural/unnecessary" as a category. And that also means discarding the labels of "luxury" and "extravagant". Our current civilization makes it easy and affordable to attain many "luxuries" and many "extravagances".

You can eat all the ice cream that you want (but just see what happens, lol...because the stomach can't take unlimited ice-cream and you'll get a tummy-ache). If you can easily find and afford to buy ice-cream and it causes you no pain, then it leads to pleasure. But if you are lactose intolerant or diabetic, then ice-cream would be "empty" of pleasure/well-being for you.

Quote from Kalosyni

I like this idea of only: "natural, necessary, and empty".

Actually it should just be:

--- natural and necessary = Is it natural? Does it come to us from nature? (We will need to be clear about what exactly are all the desires that nature gives to us). And... Do we need it to survive? Do we need it for our well-being (and to feel blessed/happy).

-vs-

--- empty = Is it actually unnecessary for both survival and well-being? Is it an opinion not from nature but generated by greed for massive riches, non-stop variations of sensation, massive power/control/status (all of which are empty opinions).

Quote from Don

it takes back or reclaims that "negative connotation" and turns it on its head. That negative connotation of "extravagant" strikes me as potentially Puritanical.

I personally feel that "extravagant" still ends up keeping the Puritanical connotation, and seems to convey that you "should" only indulge very rarely.

Quote from Don

Quote from Rolf

Would you say “natural”, “necessary”, and “empty” are suitable terms to use?

Well, if it was good enough for Epicurus...

PS. Okay, let me add that "Yes, I know Epicurus didn't use “natural”, “necessary”, and “empty” because he spoke Greek." But those translations are about as close to literal as one gets for φυσικαὶ, ἀναγκαῖαι, and κεναί.

I like this idea of only: "natural, necessary, and empty".

We could think about it this way:

• natural = Is it natural? Does it come to us from nature? (We will need to be clear about what exactly are all the desires that nature gives to us).
• necessary = Do we need it to survive? Do we need it for our well-being (and to feel blessed/happy).
• empty = Is it actually unnecessary for both survival and well-being? Is it an opinion not from nature but generated by greed for massive riches, non-stop variations of sensation, massive power/control/status (all of which are empty opinions).

Quote from Rolf

Finally, we have the snow sprinkled atop the mountain representing the natural but unnecessary "extravagant" desires. Once we have everything below, we may take joy in these pleasures and allow them to adorn our life, without feeling like we require them.

I personally would end up choosing a word other than "extravagent" (but not sure exactly what word).

Also, I wouldn't see this as a hierarchy, but instead that they can all occur at the same time.

Welcome to the forum! DerekC

You've now been added to the private group message which contains the link...looking forward to meeting you!

Quote from Bryan

Epikouros fully acknowledged that all pleasures are based in active pleasures, but he identified the pleasure of being satisfied (i.e., "established pleasures") as the natural goal of living things.

Unlike ascetics, we do not deny the body -- and unlike the average man, we do not deny having reached full pleasure when we are satisfied.

"Eating" is pleasurable, but a life dedicated to "eating" is sad and unhealthy -- and so for the rest of the active pleasures. If we reach the point of satisfaction and wonder what else our body needs, we are missing the point. If we form a lifestyle focused on satisfying our physical pleasures, our intellectual abilities will suffer.

But bodily satisfaction is the beginning of the intellectual life -- and once this is achieved, then here it is healthy to settle in, and consume and consume (philosophy and science) as a lifestyle.

Thank you Bryan Well said!

Also, we carry on with our household duties, with joy and laughter [friendship] . --Vatican Saying 41

Quote from Bryan

I think this is typically the case for most people. For me, "clearing the mind" is pleasant before sleep, but when I am awake and ready, then "mind-clearing meditation" feels like intellectual asceticism and it is at this point I will notice the extra sensations you mention.

Thanks Bryan , I also don't like the idea of "clearing the mind" -- as when you are awake there will always be something there. Better to focus on pleasurable sensations such as focusing on the feeling of the breath in the body (as it goes in and out, making it smooth and deep and allowing the speed of the breath to feel good as needed). Or there is the state of mental flow when engaged in concentration (arts, crafts, etc.) when the mind is engaged and focusing fully while also feeling relaxed (just right) as at the same time one is engaged in the craft. (This is just an aside, had to share ).

Hi Everyone!

On the first Monday of each month, is our "meet-and-greet" and Epicurean philosophy discussion - open to all forum members!

How to attend: Please let us know if you are interested in attending by posting here in this thread, in your welcome thread, or messaging Cassius or Kalosyni. You will then be added to our private group message with the link. (Level 01 members must first be approved by the moderator team).

Previous attendees will automatically receive the link via private message (no need to RSVP). If you have been absent from the forum for more than six months, please let us know so we can add you back into the private group message.

We will send out the link and a reminder about the meeting on the day before.

Our monthly agenda:

• Round the table greetings.
• Discussion on an Epicurean philosophy discussion topic, popular forum threads, and the Lucretius Today Podcast - we will go round the table giving everyone an opportunity for participation.
• Time for answering any questions about the forum or Epicurean philosophy.

Looking forward to seeing you there!

Quote from Rolf

When I'm in a "neutral state" - not sick, injured, etc. - and I focus on my body's senses, I pretty much always notice some kind of ache, tenseness, stomach pain, itchiness, or some other uncomfortable feeling that I'm generally able to ignore when I'm not not fixating on it.

This reminds me that it does take work to tune into pleasure (I myself need to put more effort into it).

Have you tried observing the feeling that comes up when you come home from work and then finally sit (flop down) down onto a couch...ahhh what a relief.

Or...on a cold morning jumping into a nice warm shower...ahhh how good the warmth is.

Or...going for a jog and feeling a bit of a runner's high...or a brisk walk feeling the body breathing smoothly and functioning well.

As for sitting still and feeling pleasure, that takes work, and Buddhist meditation is a good way to find it (also it depends on the teacher and type of meditation) -- There isn't any evidence that Epicureans did meditation (but Torquatus explains the meaning of Cryssypus' hand which could be seen as very similar to meditation - I'll look for that thread and edit in the link when i find it).

There is a lot of good stuff here is this thread - I'll need to re-read. (I've struggled with these ideas myself.)

It almost seems that "satisfaction" is the goal...

---> satisfaction which arises with the removal of pain

---> satisfaction which arises from easy pleasures that are not harmful or cause bad consequences

---> satisfaction with the types of pleasures that are available (through-out a given day it is mostly mental pleasures, with a few moments of pleasurable bodily sensations).

Happy Birthday AxA !