Here is my own wording on PD9:
"Because the pleasures are of differing lengths in time, and occur spread out through time and in differing parts of the body, this is why they feel different from each other."
Yet I still think that there is an implication that the underlying sensation of pleasure is the same for all types of pleasure inducing stimulus - the only thing that varies is the intensity, the duration, and the part of the body that feels the pleasure.
My own wording on PD9:
"Because the pleasures are of differing lengths in time, and occur spread out through time and in differing parts of the body, this is why they feel different from each other."
The way I understand it is a "good" or to be more specific a "natural good" is condition or a virtue which leads to pleasure and pleasant life.
So just like you can have goods that you buy from a store (which are physical and extrinsic) then you have intrinsic goods which are conditions or virtues.
...for the record - I have no problem with "tranquility."In fact, I'm coming around to the idea that ataraxia and aponia actually refer to something like homeostasis or basically just the sensation that the body and mind are working well and in-tune. One can more easily or readily experience pleasure - of all kinds - when neither the body nor the mind are troubled.
Thank you Don, what you say is very helpful, and I realize that I need to study up more on this.
I find that it makes more sense for me to think of "peace of mind" instead of "tranquility". So essentially anytime the word tranquility comes up then substitute that. Also to think about how pleasure can be at its greatest when there is "absence of stress and anxiety".
What is further interesting about this article (which I haven't quite finished reading yet) is that it seems to point toward goods that we can cultivate -- personal Epicurean goods as those that are possessed through the efforts of those who cultivate them (they are internal and which we come to possess due to our own efforts rather than through fortune).
And it gives VS 45 as a reference:
"The study of what is natural produces not braggarts nor windbags nor those who show off the culture that most people fight about, but those who are fearless and self-reliant and who value their own good qualities rather than the good things that have come to them from external circumstances."note]
The above article needs to be critically read since it does touch on tranquility, and kinetic/katastematic pleasure. Read this article with care. I would say that we here on the forum view tranquility as an abstract ideal which is not the ultimate goal of living. I find that reading this opens up the whole tranquility question, all over again. And so then this question pops up: Is a life of tranquility happy or pleasureable? It really all depends on how you define tranquility, and how you make choices. Do you stay home and do nothing?
From the article:
That which causes or leads to the elimination of bodily and mental pain is an instrumental good. A constitutive good is an intrinsic good. Not clear about what benefit the categorization of instrumental vs. constitutive goods hold.
VS 32 -- reverence is an instrumental good (showing reverence for a wise man is itself a great good for him who reveres).
PD 27 / VS 28 -- wisdom is an instrumental good (of all the things that wisdom provides for the complete happiness of one's entire life, by far the greatest is friendship).
Self-suficiency is a constitutive good (Ep. Men. 130)
Phronesis is a good (Ep. Men. 132)
Friendship is a good (PD 27 / VS 28)
There is also a section on personal goods.
The topic of natural goods briefly came up in last Wednesday's Zoom discussion. So thinking about what are natural goods within Epicureanism, as well as references such as the Principle Doctrines, etc.
It seems that friendship, freedom, and self-sufficiency are all natural goods, and there could be others?
Also, I just found this article (written in 2021) by Alex R. Gilham.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/27007901
This article starts out with saying that pleasure is the only intrinsic good, but that there are various other non-intrinsic goods, and the aim of the paper is to classify the Epicurean goods. Will post more after I read it. And if anyone else wants to post thoughts after reading the article, or about the natural goods question, please do so. 
The image in this week's meeting announcement is Bacchus by Italian painter Caravaggio, painted in 1598.
I thought it was fitting for Principle Doctrine 8:
"No pleasure is bad in itself; but the means of paying for some pleasures bring with them disturbances many times greater than the pleasures themselves." (Monadnock)
Thanks Don for sharing the article, simple as it is.
I think his negative opening comment on Epicurus was because he might think that the fear of death will help motivate someone to enjoy the present moment.
I think everyone is at their own level of dealing with time and the idea of death, depending on how much they have contemplated their own mortality. Unlike the author of the article, I personally think that no matter how old one is, that some amount of planning is a good thing. But of course if one is retired, then one will plan different types of activities compared to if one is still employed. Also, it does take some planning in order to organize social events, so hopefully we all keep that up until the day we die. I think some amount of planning also can help make life more enjoyable, but also not being too attached to any one specific outcome (being able to go with the flow as things unfold).
This was a fun quote, as I myself do tend to live in the future:
The result is what’s been called the “when-I-finally” mindset: the sense that real fulfilment, or even real life itself, hasn’t quite arrived yet, so that present experience is merely something to get through, en route to something better. The person stuck in such a mindset, wrote John Maynard Keynes, “does not love his cat, but his cat’s kittens; nor, in truth, the kittens, but only the kittens’ kittens, and so on forward for ever to the end of cat-dom”.
beasain, I just looked up about propolis, and found an online article which says that
Greek and Roman physicians used it as mouth disinfectant and as an antiseptic and healing product in wound treatment, prescribed for topical therapy of cutaneous and mucosal wounds.
Joshua, hope to see you next week.
New folks are welcome to drop in to our next Open Invitation Epicurean Zoom, Wednesday evening, June 8th, at 8:30 ET!
We start out each meeting by going "around the table" and giving an opportunity for each participant to introduce themselves as they wish, such as a brief reference to previous background, level of interest in Epicurus, or current areas of study within Epicureanism.
This week we will discuss PD 6 & 7.
PD06. Whatever you can provide yourself with to secure protection from men is a natural good. [see note below]
PD07. Some men wished to become famous and conspicuous, thinking that they would thus win for themselves safety from other men. Wherefore if the life of such men is safe, they have obtained the good which nature craves; but if it is not safe, they do not possess that for which they strove at first by the instinct of nature.
*Note: The translation given is by Eugene O’Connor from “The Essential Epicurus.” Bailey: “To secure protection from men anything is a natural good by which you may be able to attain this end.” New Greek Version: “In order to obtain security from other people, there was (always) the natural good of sovereignty and kingship, through which (someone) once could have accomplished this.”
You can find the link to join the zoom here:
Welcome to the forum Beasain!
Thank you for your introduction and for sharing about your reading of Lucretius.
What are the reasons of hiding Hellenistic philosophy, and especially Epicurism? The Plato mafia of Hegel?
I don't know enough about Hegalian philosophy, but this question is interesting to me. I tend to focus mostly on the ethics of Epicureanism, and I would say that it is a very subtle teaching that not everyone can understand. Not only does it require a certain ability to critically think, but it requires one to think outside the box of Western civilization and the abstractions of thinking which come down from Platonic philosophy, and which have been reinforced and continue to be reinforced by Christianity. I think Epicureanism will remain a philosophy only for the few, as it requires one to move beyond "either-or" thinking and live a viceral and sensorial life within the physical world, while always remembering that this very life is all that we have. So we have this focus on the importance of making it a pleasant and pleasurable life, which goes against the current understanding of pleasure -- pleasure as being an escape from responsibility, or pleasure always leading to excess (and even being synonymous to excess). But we who are Epicureans are wiser than this. First we have to overcome all our previous conditioning with regard to experiencing pleasure. So at the beginning, it may seem that dancing with pleasure is like walking across a sharp edge of a razor blade: one misstep and you fall off. But yet with the practice of paying attention, then it is more like learning to ride a bike, and you see that it is quite natural actually, and it is the best way to live.
Continuing on with more on the "Medicine of Epicurus":
Vatican Saying 81 (from Monadnock)
"One will not banish emotional disturbance or arrive at significant joy through great wealth, fame, celebrity, or anything else which is a result of vague and indefinite causes".
From a practical standpoint, I would say that emotional disturbance is anything above and beyond natural reactions and natural emotions. Both positive and negative emotions are part of life. Emotions give us feedback to know what to move toward and what to move away from in a given situation, so all emotions are life serving, even painful ones.
Yet I would say that there are certain feelings that indicate a need for some kind of intervention (help from friends or a therapist). These would be overwhelming feelings (or emotional disturbances) such as hopelessness, long-lasting anger or sadness, chronic lethergy, or long-lasting feelings of anxiety or overwhelm. I can only recommend finding a therapist to help sort through these kinds of chronic emotional disturbances.
This Vatican Saying 81 also points to the idea that there are specific and definite causes of joy in life. What is joy? Is it the same as happiness? When the naturally good things in life come to us, we feel happiness. A good meal (and the right kind of food and the right amount of food) brings pleasure and we can feel happy in that experience. Also, spending time with those we love brings happiness. Doing activities we enjoy brings happiness. Having work that is interesting and not too taxing on the body (and not too mentally stressful).
Some ideas about: What are some mental conditions which lead to happiness?
1. You don't compare yourself to others as being less than in some way, but instead you know what your strengths and weaknesses are and you keep those in mind or in perspective as you navigate through life.
2. You don't feel badly about yourself or internally put yourself down -- instead you feel effective, and you feel you have a certain amount of control or choice over your circumstances. (See PD16)
3. You have supportive relationships in your life and people who you enjoy talking to, and you can share smiles and laughter, because you have things which you share together that you both can smile about. (See VS 52)
4. You have interesting things that you like to do, and have fun and enjoyment engaging in those activities.
5. You don't spend a lot of your time worrying about the future. (See PD39).
6. Of the people in your surrounding community, you don't think badly of anyone and they don't think badly of you. (See PD40)
Thoughts? Is there anything else that should be on this list?
Ancient Greek clothing / Ancient Roman clothing, if anyone is interested.
An idea -- that it could be fun at some point to dress up for the 20th celebration, as a way to make it more festive. And I could help anyone with getting their costume together.
For ancient Greek clothing:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_in_ancient_Greece
And for ancient Roman clothing:
This thread is for Epicureans in ancient Greece and Rome, focusing on historical events, culture, clothing, and lifestyle (Edit note: 02/21/25 - moved earlier posts into this new thread).
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I found this book "The Invention and Gendering of Epicurus" (when Googling "Epicureans and effeminancy") which looks like it could shed some light on the culture of Epicureans. Though tracking down a library copy might be a bit difficult, unless anyone lives near a good university library.
Description
The school of Greek philosopher Epicurus, which became known as the Garden, famously put great stock in happiness and pleasure. As a philosophical community, and a way of seeing the world, Epicureanism had a centuries-long life in Athens and Rome, as well as across the Mediterranean.
The Invention and Gendering of Epicurus studies how the Garden's outlook on pleasure captured Greek and Roman imaginations—particularly among non-Epicureans—for generations after its legendary founding. Unsympathetic sources from disparate eras generally focus not on historic personages but on the symbolic Epicurean. And yet the traditions of this imagined Garden, with its disreputable women and unmanly men, give us intermittent glimpses of historical Epicureans and their conceptions of the Epicurean life.
Pamela Gordon suggests how a close hearing and contextualization of anti-Epicurean discourse leads us to a better understanding of the cultural history of Epicureanism. Her primary focus is on sources hostile to the Garden, but her Epicurean-friendly perspective is apparent throughout. Her engagement with ancient anti-Epicurean texts makes more palpable their impact on modern responses to the Garden.
Intended both for students and for scholars of Epicureanism and its response, the volume is organized primarily according to the themes common among Epicurus' detractors. It considers the place of women in Epicurean circles, as well as the role of Epicurean philosophy in Homer and other writers.
Pamela Gordon is Chair of the Department of Classics at the University of Kansas and the author of Epicurus in Lycia: The Second-Century World of Diogenes of Oenoanda.
Thank you Don, that was an interesting wikipedia:
Entertainment Weekly said the Kobayashi Maru test is one of the top ten elements of Star Trek with which non-fans are likely to be familiar;[5] writing for Tor, Keith DeCandido said "everyone knows that the Kobayashi Maru refers to a no-win scenario".[6]
...The term has been applied to real-world scenarios with no perceived positive outcome or that requires out-of-the-box thinking, such as climate change,[10] constitutional law,[11] education,[12] and the casting of the Ancient One character in Doctor Strange.[13][14] Commentators have used Kirk's unorthodox answer to the Kobayashi Maru test as an example of the need to redefine the premises upon which an organization operates—changing the rules rather than playing within them.[15][16] Computer security educators have used the Kobayashi Maru to teach students to think like an adversary, and that by stepping outside the rules of the game one can redefine the game.[17] Ideas and products focusing on immersive learning have also been compared to the realistic, immersive nature of the Kobayashi Maru test.
Wondering, do we have a "Kobayashi Maru" situation when it comes to Epicureanism? So perhaps we need to "redefine the rules" -- For Epicurus' ideas to survive, and also our interpretations to survive, we will need to go beyond the scant remaining writings, we will need to thoughly express specific Epicurean interpretations and assertions on modern issues -- and the best way may be to write and publish a book outlining these interpretations.
Also to the tiger example, and Epicurean might say: "What the heck are you doing hanging out around cliffs where tigers are everywhere?"
True!
don't care for hypotheticals
Yes, and this hypothetical story could be interpreted many ways. I see it as dealing with things we can't avoid such as "death and taxes". And dealing with the feeling of fear which might arise at death, and we are not immortal -- and this question: Can you be clear minded enough as you become conscious that your death is imminent? Can you be so awake to the unfolding of every moment that you taste and enjoy whatever delicious things come your way?
Or are we in charge of our lives and moving as aggressively as possible to experience pleasure and avoid pain?
The word "aggressively" conjures up hard work of some kind -- doing hard work to experience pleasure is personally not my cup of tea. The hardest work I think I will ever try to take on for the sake of pleasure will hopefully be sometime in the next three years -- to go on a trip to Greece. I don't travel well (can't sleep on long intercontinental flights) nor adjust to time changes very easily, nor sleep very well in hotels, but I think I am willing to try to make the net result be more pleasureable than the pain that will occur (it may end up being a tie). If there needs to be pain of any kind, it is not for the sake of "looking good" or to appear smart or virtuous, but only as a function of a necessary tool that moves toward pleasure.
Perhaps I have a more delicate constitution than some folks -- too much stress or noise can cause me stomach pains or digestive problems -- I think there is room for all of us under the Epicurean umbrella -- we who are more delicate can root for and applaude the courageous, strong, and daring pleasure-seekers, without needing to apologize or feel guilty or worry about defending our choices and delicate constitutions. 
After this last post by Don, just remembered this Zen story:
A man was walking across a field when he saw a tiger. Fearing for his life, the man fled, but the tiger gave chase. The man reached the edge of a cliff, and just as he thought the tiger would get him, he spotted a vine growing over the edge of the cliff. Grabbing on to it, he swung himself over the edge to safety.
The tiger came to the edge and snarled at him from above. While precariously perched like this, the man saw another tiger growling at him from below. Trembling, he held on to the thin vine that was keeping him from being dinner for the tigers. What could be worse than this, he wondered.
Just then, two mice scampered out and began gnawing at the vine. As they chewed and the man pondered over his fate, he saw a juicy, red strawberry on a ledge next to him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. Ah, how sweet it tasted!
This Zen story always struck me as very different than most Zen stories, as it points toward a the sensual pleasure of taste. It is also a kind of contemplation on mortality. For further reading on this koan click here.
I would say this is a very Epicurean way to deal with death.
This seems like a good Epicurean saying to ponder, regarding the future:
| 41. | One must laugh and seek wisdom and tend to one's home life and use one's other goods, and always recount the pronouncements of true philosophy. |
