Today, it serves as a reminder of what I thought success and happiness were.....and I think it looks kind of cool
Okay thanks, so that "running guy" is putting out fires, and not on fire himself.
You mentioned Emily Austin's book, so guessing maybe you have already listened to the interview on the Lucretius Today podcast? Part 1and Part 2
Silverwater, Welcome to the forum! 
I notice you added an interesting avatar to your profile. If you don't mind, I would be curious to hear about any symbolism or meaning behind it?
mwilliams, Welcome to the forum!
Hi Everyone,
Tomorrow is our special Epicurean philosophy meet and greet and open discussion Zoom, for the European time zone. All members are invited to attend this one. If you haven't already done so, RSVP here and I will get the Zoom link to you
Saturday at 2pm US eastern time.
I just found this very interesting article, which may be kind of out there because it questions the validity of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM).
For anyone who is interested in an alternative understanding, this very good article made a lot of sense to me.
Thank you @Nate for sharing. Many people who have deeper or longer depression will need the help of a therapist or psychiatrist.
And also there is important benefits for everyone, in finding supportive community and friends. Eventually I hope to have a handbook for people to start their own meetings in their own cities, as a way for people to find like-minded friends. Because friendship can be so healing.
This is a very good (and long) article which covers the ever evolving science and research going into understanding depression -- and also a possible role of inflammation in depression, which can come through an number of causes, including viral (such as Covid-19 inflammation).
Depression has often been blamed on low levels of serotonin in the brain. That answer is insufficient, but alternatives are coming into view and changing our understanding of the disease
https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-cause-of-depression-is-probably-not-what-you-think-20230126/
Thanks Pacatus, after reading your story, I added in something about feeling "different" to the table
Here is a list of possible worries with possible practical solutions and Epicurean philosophy contemplations. Epicurean philosophy may not have direct answers to all of these worries, but understanding the nature of the world and the cosmos as being material (and not supernatural) will lead to a very practical and matter-of-fact way of dealing with life's problem. I will update this with a few more references to the philosophy soon. Do you see any "worries" that are missing?
| Worrying about not having enough money to buy necessities. | Which necessities? Prioritize the most important. Spend less money on what you buy (make a budget). Go back to work, or get a second job. | |
| Worrying about not being able to get or hold onto a job or the experience of losing a job. | See what lines of work need workers. Get training. Research (or ask) about how to increase skills on your current job. Get counseling. | |
| Worrying about not having friends or not being able to make or keep friends. | Research how to make and keep friends. Get out and meet people by doing activities in which you will meet people with similar interests. Keep in touch and invest time in your current friendships. Get counseling. | |
| Worrying about wanting a girlfriend/boyfriend or spouse but not being able to get one. | Research all the important aspects involvled in how to find a partner. Get counseling. | |
| Worrying about difficulty getting along with family, spouse, friends, or boss. | Research communication/mediation techniques. Choose to remove yourself from a situation that is abusive or toxic. Get counseling. | |
| Worrying about the well-being of kids, spouse, family, or friends. | Talk to someone else to determine if your worries are realistic. Offer support but realize you can't control others. Research or get help for your kids if they are still minors. | |
| Worrying about your own health, the experience of being sick, or dying. | Get evaluated by a doctor. Research about health issues. Contemplate the nature of death. Spend more time with friends and family. Add more pleasures into your life. Get counseling. | PD02 and PD04 |
| Worrying about your reputation, or being judged as "not good enough" at work, or by family, spouse, or friends. | Consider how to make prudent decisions and act in a prudent manner. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. Realise you can't please people who have unrealistic expectations. Find a different job or different friends. Get counseling. | PD07 and VS15, VS64, VS70 |
| Worrying about how to make the right decision. | Write out a list of pros and cons for each possible choice, and be sure to list both short-term and long-term possible outcomes. Research decision making methods. Talk to a friend or get counseling. | PD08 and VS71 |
| Worrying about the current state of the world, the future state of the world, or civilization coming to an end. | Understand what things you can and can't influence or take action on. Research things to get a big picture view. Make peace with the understanding that there are uncertainties regarding the length of one's life. Talk to a friend or get counseling. | PD20 |
| Worrying about not having enough time, being disorganized, or struggling with household management. | Research time management tips, organizing tips, or household management. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. Decide what is most important to you in your life and simplify your life by eliminating things which aren't necessary. | VS41 |
| Worrying about death or the idea of existence after death, God, or perceptions of paranormal/supernatural. | Reflect on Epicurean teachings on the nature of death, God, and the material qualities of the world. Get medication if you are having hallucinations. Get therapy. | PD02 |
| Worrying that you are somehow different than everyone else and don't fit in. | Don't let consumerist-culture dictate to you who is "cool", smart, or beautiful. Find and focus on your own unique strengths and gifts. Focus on activities in which you find pleasure and enjoyment. Find friends who have similar hobbies and interests, and accept you for who you are. If you are struggling with a disability, find a therapist or support group. |
If I see a tornado in the distance, having anxiety about it doesn't help me or anyone around me.
Here is an actual problem: I have a type of mole that I should go in to a dermatologist to make sure it isn't cancer. But I wonder why I keep procrastinating. I ought be more worried. So here is an example of how there can be healthy anxiety/worry. This discussion makes me realize that I need to stop telling myself there is nothing to worry about. I am going make an appointment this week.
Which brings me to the question about anxiety in the Epicurean life. That's not an issue we can settle, though we benefit from continuing to discuss it, but I tend to split the difference between Don and Cassius.
Yes, I was thinking that "split the difference between Don and Cassius" also. And then we will need to ask ourselves "Is this a healthy worry or an unhealthy worry?" and also "should I be worrying more than I am?"
Case in point is friendship, which plays a central role in the Epicurean philosophy as one of the main ways of achieving tranquility through safety.
@waterholic, it sounds like perhaps you see tranquility as an important goal within Epicureanism? Here on the forum some of us find that to be a good goal, where as others of us insist on seeing a broader understanding of pleasure -- or as I personally like to think of it -- "a sweet life" is the goal. (So we are often having to clarify and redefine things, and perhaps things can get confusing).
There are several places within Epicurean philosophy in which it appears that tranquility is the goal (such as in the Letter to Meneoceus). However, in this forum we attempt to examine the big picture and when we do so then we are able to interpret the Epicurean goal as simply "pleasure" -- and this pleasure also includes some tranquility. So instead of tranquility being an end, it is a tool for pleasure. ( Cassius maybe we need to set up a chart to explain this better?).
I could say more about whether or not "tranquility" was possible in Epicurus' time (since there was often the looming threat of brutal war and political strife). And now in our own time there are many things which can get keep us up at night worrying about the future. And I believe there are ways to deal with all of this.
For our current times, I would say also that friendship provides a kind of sweetness in life (and perhaps less security) -- so friendship is a tool for pleasure, which begins in mutual benefit, but over time evolves into mutual appreciation and enjoyment of getting to see, know, and experience another human being. It is true that in our times friendships can be somewhat transitory. When I moved from the West Coast to the Southeast of the US, the friendships that I had there are now altered forever (though I still keep in touch with a few, it is a very distant feeling of connection).
I believe that one needs to "keep the faith" so to speak -- keep the faith in friendships, and that friendship is possible.
I envision Epicurean philosophy becoming a helpful tool for building community and friendship. We still have lots to do to prepare the teaching materials before we can create a program in which to introduce people to the philosophy. The materials also need to include how to create and build communities. These communities would be more like "churches" or a club/society.
In the meantime you might like to check out this thread here which has some practical tips on friendship:
Hi Everyone,
Meet-and-greet and open Epicurean philosophy discussion -- this next Saturday February 25th at 2pm US Eastern Time -- We have several members who have already given an RSVP to say they would like to attend. And this meeting is open to all forum members -- please RSVP here and we will get the Zoom link to you by private Forum message.
The right track to what?
Here in this thread I want to point out an example of the complexity (and difficulty) of thought and language.
I think Buddhists would say "to want less, to control and tamp down our desires" is the right track.
And Don has explained:
Just to be clear, I'm saying the Buddhists are wrong too. They would say tamping down desires is the right track.
But maybe Cassius was asking this:
There is the question of the goal: "the right track to what?"
Just like there is the idea within religion of Perennial philosophy, so to we need to watch out for some like this when comparing Epicureanism to other philosophies (such as the philosophy of Buddhism). I once read a very good explaination about why the belief in "perennial philosophy" is incorrect -- since the end goal of each religion is actually slightly different.
I want to force the other "Hedonists" to defend their "brand" of Hedonism with apologetic adjectives, like, "Unrestrained Hedonism", or "YOLO Hedonism".
Looked up "YOLO" -- On Urban Dictionary, scroll down as you read a few of the entries, cause it is kind of funny:
Thing is...that if "you only live once", then you shouldn't screw it up, and so this points to incorrect thinking regarding the best way to pursue pleasure -- and a disregard for the future and the long-term outcome.
Thinking of phrases...perhaps...Epicureanism = "Best Life Hedonism"
I am a little late in weighing in on this, but my first reaction is "be careful". And could there be something "stoic" about being frugal -- that it leads to the elevation of a type of virtue -- and the perfection of "frugality"?
The definition of frugality on the internet:
/fro͞oˈɡalədē/
noun
the quality of being economical with money or food; thriftiness.
"he scorned the finer things in life and valued frugality and simplicity"
synonyms: thriftiness, carefulness, scrimping and saving, conservation, good management, caution, prudence, providence, canniness, abstemiousness, abstinence, austerity, asceticism, self-discipline, restraint, moderation, puritanism, monasticism, monkishness, miserliness, meanness, parsimoniousness, niggardliness, close-fistedness, tight-fistedness, tightness, stinginess, sparingness
Note that the definition includes "asceticism" as a synonym.
I would say that it is important to think of yourself as possessing prudence as a tool for making good choices, rather than being "frugal". There aren't any hard and fast rules for a pleasurable and pleasant life, and we judge each situation uniquely according to our given resources.
Looked up the definition of "prudence":
/ˈpro͞odns/
noun
the quality of being prudent; cautiousness.
"we need to exercise prudence in such important matters"
synonyms: wisdom, judgment, good judgment, judiciousness, sagacity, shrewdness, advisability, common sense, sense, caution, cautiousness, care, carefulness, canniness, chariness, wariness, circumspection, far-sightedness, foresight, forethought, discretion, thrift, thriftiness, providence, good management, careful budgeting, economy, frugality, abstemiousness, forehandedness, sparingness
LOL...frugality is a synonym 
This was interesting from the Wikipedia article on Diogenes Laertius:
English translations
Thomas Stanley's 1656 History of Philosophy adapts the format and content of Laertius' work into English, but Stanley compiled his book from a number of classical biographies of philosophers.[36] The first complete English translation was a late 17th-century translation by ten different persons.[37] A better translation was made by Charles Duke Yonge (1853),[38] but although this was more literal, it still contained many inaccuracies.[39] The next translation was by Robert Drew Hicks (1925) for the Loeb Classical Library,[40] although it is slightly bowdlerized. A new translation by Pamela Mensch was published by Oxford University Press in 2018.[41]
And before these translations, there is the question of how earlier manuscripts might have been affected (or altered) during the medieval ages.
Don do you have a JPASS?
I signed in but looks like I can only read the introduction and not the full book.
Do we know what Burley said specifically?
No, and now I see he may not have been the author of the particular book De vita et moribus philosophorum, (Wikipedia says: "It was formerly attributed to Walter Burley, but is now recognized as anonymous. Its author may be known as "Pseudo-Walter Burley".[3]) Though it would be interesting to see if we can find out more:
I am still back on Diogenes Laertius, Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers,
and found this eyebrow raising qoute in Wikipedia:
He is criticized primarily for being overly concerned with superficial details of the philosophers' lives and lacking the intellectual capacity to explore their actual philosophical works with any penetration. However, according to statements of the 14th-century monk Walter Burley in his De vita et moribus philosophorum, the text of Diogenes seems to have been much fuller than that which we now possess.
