Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Cassius

But even as we debate this practical angle, the ultimate philosophical point remains and I think we all agree on it -- that in the end life is a balance between pursuing pleasure and avoiding pain, but while we sometimes choose pain in order to pursue pleasure, we never set "avoiding pain" as the primary overriding purpose of life.

Yes, I agree with this. And it is all much more complex than this - and in certain situations we really do need to be sensitive to the balance of pain and pleasure that we feel inside our bodies.

I was pondering today, that there is a strange paradox in the pursuit of pleasure -- it is as if nature gives us a reward to reinforce certain behaviors.

For example: When we are hungry there is pain present from the hunger. The stomach growls and there is a slight feeling of stomach acid in the empty stomach prompting us to eat to relieve the discomfort. As we eat, there is enjoyment of the taste and smell of the food to reinforce the behavior of eating. When we get full, there is the sensation of fullness which signals that it is time to stop eating, and depending on the level of fullness can cause varying levels of discomfort. Of course we can eat at times when we are no longer hungry and enjoy the variation of the experience of taste and smell. But eating more than necessary can lead to a sluggish feeling (not to mention weight gain). When food becomes a source of emotional comfort, we are also potentially eating too many calories (and we may be taking the easy way out of a situation instead of doing the harder work of finding ways to get emotional support or activities which relieve the pain of boredom).

If we know how (or learn) to stop eating when we are at the right level of fullness, then that in itself can bring a kind of pleasure, since we will have relieved the hunger and also have good energy (and not feel sluggish).

So what I am saying is that there is a complex mix of pleasure and pain - removing pain and adding pleasure. And there may be other areas in life that have this interplay.

Quote from Cassius

Not all of us are going to rank the pleasures of risk and danger as highly as Knievel did, but since there is no absolute standard of how you *should* rank your pleasures, I would say Epicurus would have no issue with Knievel's choices, at least on an abstract level.

I can't agree with you here, because:

PD16: "Chance steals only a bit into the life of a wise person: for throughout the complete span of his life the greatest and most important matters have been, are, and will be directed by the power of reason."

I feel certain that Epicurus would not approve of Knievel's choices and actions, because he was clearly leaving it up to chance, when he said he knew that several of his jumps were questionable but he went ahead and did it anyway. And he had a hard time getting insurance. He was badly injured with broken bones countless times (and I would guess he probably was addicted to pain medication, though didn't read the full Wikipedia article). He was definitely into it for the fame and the money.

That is an interesting analogy, and if it was a choice between certain death and less likely death but still a highly risky maneuver, then you gotta choose.

But this doesn't show how we take into account that the ability to maximize pleasure requires us to stay alive. There is no pleasure when you are dead. And that means that Epicureans are not going to be daredevils like Evel Knievel. So the sensory pleasure of flying through the air and the "vain" desire to be able to say you successfully jumped a wide ravine will be set aside, and we would choose to pursue wiser pleasures.

I was just thinking about how we may need varying study levels, which will depend upon how much time a person has available:

-- Basic Understanding - simplified summary of key concepts (the least you need to know)

-- Moderate - use of an outlined study guide (a thorough overview)

-- Advanced - further study after completion of the study guide (on-going study and research)

Quote from Scott

I think you bring up an important point, Kalosyni. I personally plan to put a good deal of effort into understanding EP, and I've only begun. I can already see how incredibly much value there is in this philosophy, but with my brief introduction so far, it is obvious there is a LOT to figure out and understand. And there are those who will put in the time, and who have the ability to digest and work with this complex material. But those are few.

I doubt this philosophy was so wildly successful for 7 centuries without being able to be presented in simpler form, easy to understand and remember (of course from there, individuals could continue to learn more as they were motivated, but most folks then and now would only dive in if initial content made sense and drew one in to learn more).

If only we had more of the original content! Some of this must surely have existed. Since we don't have that (and even any we might have already or will yet find would have been prepared for presentation to ancient cultures, not to people in our modern world), I agree it would seem worthwhile today to develop basic materials that make this philosophy engaging and accessible to as wide an audience as reasonably possible.

We are making good progress on a 7-Part Study Guide (which could also be used for a "Basics of Epicureanism Seven Week Course").

remikit Welcome to the forum!

Quote from remikit

I was intrigued by the article and it reminded me of a long ago college read for a Victorian Lit class - Marius the Epicurean, written by Walter Pater

Thanks, I wasn't familiar with that, and I found Marius the Epicurean on Wikipedia, and after skimming through it I can see that it is very different than how we here on the forum understand Epicureanism. Marius the Epicurean has too much emphasis on asceticism (and looks to be heavily influenced by Platonism and Stoicism also). I would advise that you set any past recollection aside and start afresh.

Our take on pleasure as the goal is open to everything so long as it doesn't cause harm or harm others. So while ascesticism could be pleasurable for some people, it is not in the least bit the goal or the path for every Epicurean.

My own understanding of Epicureanism: remember to seize the day, not recklessly but always in a manner which results in the best outcome. I base my choices or avoidances on what will bring an outcome of pleasure for a "sweet life". Cultivate friendships -- the importance of having supportive friends who also have this same way of navigating the world.

Here is a presentation by Cassius, giving an overview you might find helpful:

And you may enjoy A Few Days in Athens, a fictionalized account of a young philosophy student in the time of Epicurus.

And feel free to ask questions

Curt welcome to the forum!

Quote from Curt

I’m just trying to find happiness in life, to hopefully alter my view along this endeavor.

Yes, sounds like something we all want. And yet, if you don't mind, I am curious what you mean when you use the word "happiness"? If you had to be more specific about it...

What specific kinds of feelings do you want to have more of, and in which specific situations?

...at work? (maybe engagement, enthusiasm, etc.)

...with friends? (maybe love, understanding, enjoyment, etc.)

....with family? (maybe closeness, appreciation, fun, etc.)

...or in other situations?

I just found this thread, which might be of interest to you:

Thread

On "Happiness" As An Abstraction / "Pleasure" As a Feeling

[Admin note 1/11/21 - Something has happened the image from the autarkist blog referenced below. I'll try to rconstruct what the image was, but in the meantime the article referred to is probably this one.]



Some time ago Hiram pointed to a book by Lampe entitled "The Birth of Hedonism" and made this statement on his Autarkist blog:

epicureanfriends.com/wcf/attachment/1594/



I have been wanting to track that down and finally today I found the page which is being referenced here:

…

Cassius

October 1, 2019 at 12:13 PM

@PaulO welcome to the forum!

We can only guess why Epicurus chose to have the Garden in a private location (and not a public place like the Stoa). We can guess about the causes that lead Epicurus to decide to not teach in public, such as the controversial nature of some of his teachings. Another possiblity is that Epicurus was a HSP (20% of all people are).

It is very possible that at least 50% or more of us here on this forum have heightened senses and are highly sensitive people who at times experience sensory overload.

There are times I experience sensory overload in a noisy, crowded room. Also, I have noticed that I can often hear things (like alarms or a cell phone ringing off in a distant room, etc) that others are unable to hear. I am also sensitive to certain scents, usually ones that contain harsh chemicals or harsh perfumes in which the scent "hits me" over and over (it seems natural products don't bother me).

Here is very good article (link is inside the following quote) explaining that there are multiple reasons why sensory overload occurs:

Quote

What causes sensory overload?

The input from your environment doesn’t stop at your senses. Several areas of the brain process the sensations you experience. When this processing can’t keep up with new input, the result is sensory overload.

The reasons for this mismatch between input and sensory integration can vary. A busy environment might be the culprit. For example:

• The person experiencing the overload might be tired or hungry, so their brain circuitry might not work as well as usual.
• Some people’s neurology might be sensitive because of mental health conditions or medical issues.

Sensory overload activates a fight, flight, or freeze response in which you try to escape triggers. This is when you see signs like meltdowns in children and irritability in adults.

It’s more than just an aversion to loud noises. Sensory overload can affect any one of your senses, such as:

Read more about it here:

https://psychcentral.com/health/sensory-overload

Display More

And here is another good one...I may have already posted about HSP's elsewhere, but posting about it again (link is inside the following quote):

Quote

A highly sensitive person (HSP) is a neurodivergent individual who is thought to have an increased or deeper central nervous system sensitivity to physical, emotional, or social stimuli.1 Some refer to this as having sensory processing sensitivity, or SPS for short.

While highly sensitive people are sometimes negatively described as being “too sensitive," it is a personality trait that brings both strengths and challenges.

The term highly sensitive person was first coined by psychologists Elaine Aron and Arthur Aron in the mid-1990s. Elaine Aron published her book, "The Highly Sensitive Person," in 1996, and interest in the concept has continued to grow since then.

Read more here:

https://www.verywellmind.com/highly-sensiti…-stress-4126393

We don't have any evidence that meditation was part of Epicurean practices. But I can completely testify that meditation has helped me deal with the internal feelings that arise during overload. If anyone struggles with this, I would recommend trying out a mindfullness meditation group (a group setting with a skilled meditation teacher is a must, for getting the most out of meditation and learning how to deal with this).

And most importantly never feeling guilty about enjoying quietude!

Just for the record, there is nothing wrong with intense pleasure. Overindulgence which leads to pain is generally avoided. Epicureans do eat more than just bread and water, but if that is all there is they will be fine with it.

The following Epicurean verses which further shed light on what is incorrect in the above text by IDRlabs:

PD8: "No pleasure is bad in itself; but the means of paying for some pleasures bring with them disturbances many times greater than the pleasures themselves."

VS21: "Nature must be persuaded, not forced. And we will persuade nature by fulfilling the necessary desires, and the natural desires too if they cause no harm, but sharply rejecting the harmful desires."

VS59: "The stomach is not insatiable, as most people say; instead the opinion that the stomach needs unlimited filling is false."

VS:71 "Ask this question of every desire: what will happen to me if the object of desire is achieved, and what if not?"

From Letter to Menoeceus: "Fourth, we hold that self-reliance is a great good — not so that we will always have only a few things but so that if we do not have much we will rejoice in the few things we have, firmly persuaded that those who need luxury the least enjoy it the most, and that everything natural is easily obtained whereas everything groundless is hard to get. So simple flavors bring just as much pleasure as a fancy diet if all pain from true need has been removed, and bread and water give the highest pleasure when someone in need partakes of them. Training yourself to live simply and without luxury brings you complete health, gives you endless energy to face the necessities of life, better prepares you for the occasional luxury, and makes you fearless no matter your fortune in life."

VS63: "Frugality too has a limit, and the man who disregards it is like him who errs through excess."

For further reading visit:
https://epicuruscollege.com/coursematerial…NotTranquility/

Goblin welcome to the forum!

Jane welcome to the forum!

I've just posted this new entry on my "21st Century Epicurean" blog...

Here is an excerpt from the opening:

Quote

Does the Epicurean lifestyle lead to a happier life?

I would like to present the idea that happiness is a practice that can be learned. So it is possible to enhance one's happiness by doing and thinking certain things.

In several of the Epicurean verses we see indications of the feeling tone present in an Epicurean lifestyle:

"One must laugh and seek wisdom and tend to one's home life and use one's other goods, and always recount the pronouncements of true philosophy." (VS 41)

"Friendship dances around the world, announcing to each of us that we must awaken to happiness." (VS 52)

"It is not the young man who is most happy, but the old man who has lived beautifully; for despite being at his very peak the young man stumbles around as if he were of many minds, whereas the old man has settled into old age as if in a harbor, secure in his gratitude for the good things he was once unsure of." (VS 17)

Consider the feeling tone of your last three days. What kinds of feelings predominated?

Display More

A Happy Life: the Emotional Feeling Tone of the Epicurean Lifestyle

Does the Epicurean lifestyle lead to a happier life? I would like to present the idea that happiness is a practice that can be learned. ...

epicureanphilosophyblog.blogspot.com

Quote from Yudaimon

Is there a zoom group this evening? If so how do I join?

Welcome to the forum Yudaimon. Currently our Zoom meetings are only open to Level 3 members. There is a vetting process which takes about one to two months, before Level 1 members are promoted to Level 3. We would love to get to know you better first here on the forum through your posts, in this thread or in other threads. You can ask questions or comment. During the next 2 months we will evaluate your participation, and then at the end of 2 months time we will decide whether or not you are ready for being promoted to Level 3.

You can start out by telling us a little about yourself, your background, any studies of philosophy or specific interests in Epicurus or any questions you might have about the Epicurean philosophy -- please share here in this thread.

Looking forward to hearing from you

Wow! Thanks Cleveland Okie ...This is a very interesting podcast presentation! -- some areas were buried in 50 feet of volcanic ash/debris...the papyri were discovered in 1752...untold numbers of scrolls were burned or thrown away before someone realised what they were! (this is from the first few minutes and I hope to listen to the rest of it still).

Quote from Cleveland Okie

...found out about the Emily Austin book, "Living for Pleasure." I bought it and I'm reading it now, very interesting so far. After I finish it, I'll look for comments about it in this forum.

For ease of reference here is a link to the section of the forum set up for Austin's book:

Living for Pleasure: An Epicurean Guide to Life - Emily Austin

We may do a Zoom "book reading/review" starting end of April or beginning of May (or maybe in the fall).

Don, Wow, that is amazing!

Quote from Don

Oh that link is cool!!

FYI:

P.Herc. 89 = Philodemus, On God's.

P.Herc. 118 = Philodemus, On Epicurus.

P.Herc. 1005= Philodemus, To... (This is the end one with the Tetrapharmakos in)

P.Herc. 1044 = Life is Philonides of Laodicea

Display More

Are you able to read them? I only have android, so seemed like it wouldn't open for me. What was on there?

I found this interesting article, newly published, with tips and also compares Herculaneum vs Pompeii. Perfect for "armchair travelers" (such as myself) ...or others who may hope to some day travel to Italy. ( Martin)

The Villa de Papyri is in Herculaneum, but I am not certain if that is open.

This article is long (be sure to keep scrolling past the many pictures/ads, as there are lots of details).

How to visit Herculaneum (and 3 huge reasons why you should) - Helen on her Holidays

Visiting Herculaneum, a Roman city destroyed at the same time as Pompeii, is really rewarding. Here's how to visit Herculaneum on your trip to Italy.

www.helenonherholidays.com

In Letter to Menoeceus, it says:

"...train yourself to hold that death is nothing to us, because good and evil consist in sensation, and death is the removal of sensation. A correct understanding that death is nothing to us makes the mortality of life enjoyable — not because it gives you an unbounded span of time, but because it removes the desire for immortality. There is nothing terrifying in life to someone who truly understands that there is nothing terrifying in the absence of life."

Joshua brought up during the last podcast the phrase "accustom yourself" to hold that death is nothing to us -- and that can be contemplating that the dying process is a natural process. And we have modern medicine now to help with the process.

Here is a very good article about the process of dying -- death due to incurable illness in old age.

Quote

It's hard to ask your doctor what dying will be like. Death is a reality everyone will face one way or another. If you have an incurable illness, knowing what to expect as your body shuts down helps you prepare for as "good" of death as possible.

https://healthnews.com/family-health/end-of-life-care/what-is-dying-like-a-nurse-explains-what-dying-bodies-do/

I think it is important to contemplate this, and to let this be motivating toward living a full and pleasurable life.

Quote from Matteng

Stoics tend to see the happy life as erasing frustrations ((a)pathe).

What would be the alternative in Epicurus' philosophy?

Here is the Vatican Saying 21:

"Nature must be persuaded, not forced. And we will persuade nature by fulfilling the necessary desires, and the natural desires too if they cause no harm, but sharply rejecting the harmful desires."

For Epicureans it is important to pay attention to needs -- needs of the body and needs for happiness. And to find practical solutions -- by asking "What is in my power to change?"

And in the Letter to Menoeceus: "...keep in mind that some desires are natural whereas others are groundless; that among the natural desires some are natural and necessary whereas others are merely natural; and that among the necessary desires some are necessary for happiness, some for physical health, and some for life itself."

So for practical application, from modern psychology:

Painful emotions and painful feelings are like a warning light that a need of the body or of the soul is not being met, or we are in danger of losing something we believe that we need. The problem being that when we only have one way to meet a need, than we are stuck if we don't get that one way (or can't use that one strategy). So getting unstuck requires us to see other strategies for meeting our needs, as well as making peace with situations in which can't be changed.

Signs that a need is going unmet, or may go unmet in the future:

sadness

frustration

anger

fear

anxiety

worry

Signs that a need is being met effectively:

happy

enthusiastic

thankful

peaceful

satisfied/content

Some universal human needs:

food/water/shelter/clothing

safety/trust

competence/skills

rest/play

belonging/understanding

respect/consideration

autonomy/choice

etc.

I haven't yet studied Philodemus, so can't add anything from that.

Quote from Matteng

Emotions that cause suffering (pain ? )such as anxiety/obsessive-compulsive disorders should probably be countered as the Stoics or CBT envisage, but perhaps in a milder form?

OCD is a complex issue and is a separate issue than just anxiety (and different than phobias) -- there is probably a lot about what kinds of modalities of modern psychotherapy work for these issues, but haven't researched.

In another thread, there was something about CBT having some problems, and could make some conditions worse.

Quote

Philosophical concerns with CBT methods

The methods employed in CBT research have not been the only criticisms; some individuals have called its theory and therapy into question.^[225]

Slife and Williams write that one of the hidden assumptions in CBT is that of determinism, or the absence of free will. They argue that CBT holds that external stimuli from the environment enter the mind, causing different thoughts that cause emotional states: nowhere in CBT theory is agency, or free will, accounted for.^[215]

Another criticism of CBT theory, especially as applied to major depressive disorder (MDD), is that it confounds the symptoms of the disorder with its causes.^[218]

Side effects

CBT is generally regarded as having very few if any side effects.^[226][227] Calls have been made by some for more appraisal of possible side effects of CBT.^[228] Many randomized trials of psychological interventions like CBT do not monitor potential harms to the patient.^[229] In contrast, randomized trials of pharmacological interventions are much more likely to take adverse effects into consideration.^[230]

A 2017 meta-analysis revealed that adverse events are not common in children receiving CBT and, furthermore, that CBT is associated with fewer dropouts than either placebo or medications.^[231] Nevertheless, CBT therapists do sometimes report 'unwanted events' and side effects in their outpatients with "negative wellbeing/distress" being the most frequent.^[232]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive…ith_CBT_methods

Display More

Quote from Kalosyni

I would recommend studying and discussing the Letter to Menoceus, the Principal Doctrines, The Vatican Sayings, and the Torquatus section of Cicero's On Ends.

And also be sure to interpret everything in accord with the following aphorisms (and these will help you avoid the danger of over-emphasis on "minimalism"/"tranquility")

PD05

PD08

PD27

VS14

VS71

Display More

I just realized that VS21 is another very important guide for interpretation of the Epicurean philosophy, and to point out that it is more than just necessary desires that we seek to fulfill -- and therefore a "simple life" of "minimalism" and "tranquility" is not the Epicurean goal. (And btw what I mean by "tranquility" is a life of dawdling or being like a stick in the mud, and so probably another word other than tranquility is needed.) And the true goal could also be better understood by the word "engaged" -- actively engaged with pursuing pleasure.

Vatican Saying 21: "Nature must be persuaded, not forced. And we will persuade nature by fulfilling the necessary desires, and the natural desires too if they cause no harm, but sharply rejecting the harmful desires."