Posts by Kalosyni

Here is a work-in-progress outline for a course on the Ethics of Epicurus. (I will be adding in more details, and still needing to incorporate the above tips by Don, and others, as well as add in from Cassius' wiki list: Epicurean Ethics).

The Ethics of Epicurus 7 Week Course

Week 1: Introduction to Epicurean Philosophy Basics

Topics:

• Epicurus' life and historical context
• Brief overview of basic concepts: a materialist universe of "atoms and void" and Epicurean canonics (senses, feelings, and anticipations)
• no supernatural gods and everything has natural causes (non-supernature nature of the universe)
• the nature of the soul, and death is the end of both the body and soul.

Readings:

• "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt – Chapter 2: "Samos and Athens"
• "Philosophy for the Millions" essay by Norman DeWitt

Week 2: The Nature of Pleasure and Pain

Topics:

• The definition of pleasure and pain based on sensation, and Nature's goal.
• Pleasure as the telos (highest good).
• The absence of pain as pleasure. Reframing the cognition of pleasure - there is no neutral state, so if you are not feeling pain then that is understood as feeling pleasure.
• The limits of pleasure and pain, and dealing with physical pain.
• The relationship of happiness to pleasure.
• Types of Desires: natural and necessary desires, natural but unnecessary desires, and vain desires.
• Choice and Avoidance - circumstance and outcome determines choiceworthiness.
• Continuous pleasure - the role of making and recalling happy memories.

Readings:

• Letter to Menoeceus
• https://newepicurean.com/the-true-natur…urean-pleasure/
• Cicero's "On Ends" Torquatus section

Week 3: The Role of Virtue

Topics:

• The relationship between virtue and pleasure, instrumental value of virtues - tools not rules.
• “Good” and “evil” according to Epicurus.
• Prudence and Temperance, and how Epicurean beliefs lead to ethical living. "Moderation in all things" is an incorrect way to make choices -- prudence uses reason as well as evaluation or pleasure/pain and unique circumstances.
• Justice and how the choice of non-harming leads to a pleasant life.
• Courage - sometimes short-term pain must be endured to for the most pleasant outcome (or to avoid a worse pain) or for the health of the body

Readings:

      
Week 4: The Epicurean View of Gods and Death; Nature, Science, and Well-Being

Topics:

• Epicurean views on god(s)
• Working through the fear of death
• Nature and natural causes (no supernatural forces)
• Science vs Epicurean canonics (and the ancient idea of observations followed by hypothesis)
• Dealing with the incorrect notion of the need to find meaning (this comes out of Christianity or a lack of social connection)
• The "Epicurean Trilemma" (which was not originated by Epicurus)
• Removing religious anxieties of death and god (the nature of death and the soul) and developing rapport with Nature.

Readings:

Week 5: Friendship, Community, and Reverence for the Wise Man

Topics:

• Importance of friendship, social bonds, and community in achieving a pleasurable life.
• The role of studying together and the Twentieth celebration as community sustaining rituals.
• The role of honoring those who are wise in Epicurean understanding and practice.
• Tips on how to create strong friendships.

Readings:

Week 6: Freedom, Personal Agency, Self-Sufficiency, Tranquility vs Risk-taking, and Clear-minded Living

Topics:

• Definition of autarky
• Free will and personal responsibility - free will frees us from determinism and fate.
• Further discussion on choices and avoidances (natural, natural and necessary, natural and unnecessary, unnatural: vain/empty and unnecessary
• Risk-taking as an individual choice (there is only this life)
• Sound mind in a healthy body

Readings:

Week 7: Applying the Philosophy of Epicurus in Modern Daily Life

Topics:

• Choice and avoidance and practical applications (thinking through career choices, marriage or staying single, and discussion of other practical dilemmas)
• Living with non-Epicureans who are religious or believe in supernatural powers
• The avoidance of being in the spotlight (pros and cons)
• Tips for starting an Epicurean philosophy study group

Readings:

Quote from Cassius

Maybe this thread "Give Us An Example of A God!" should come after examination of "Give Us An Example of A Prolepsis!"

fyi...Don started this thread not too long ago:

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Prolepsis Citations from Long & Sedley

This thread is an offshoot of this thread:

epicureanfriends.com/thread/?postID=31229#post31229 In dealing with the prolepseis over there, I decided to turn to Long & Sedley's The Hellenistic Philosophers (which is available to borrow on Internet Archive with a free account) to see what they have to say. It turns out they cite a number of instances of mention of the prolepseis/preconceptions. Their numbering system (ex. 21A 4) uses their individual section, cited text, then their subsection of…

Don

July 2, 2024 at 11:04 PM

At the link I posted above (in post 29) I found a transcript further down that page, and found this:

Quote

For the Greeks, dreams were not imagined stories or even narratives, they were actually real visitations, the gods or the Oneiroi appearing to them as a vision. So I want to read you a passage from the book An Ancient Dream Manual by Peter Thonemann. I think he does a really perfect job of explaining how the Greeks understood dreams. He says,

“Greek and Roman authors do not speak of ‘having a dream’ or ‘dreaming that x happened’, but rather of ‘seeing a dream’, where the dream is objectified or personified as a thing or person that appears to the dreamer in his or her sleep. The archetypal Greek or Roman dream is therefore not an experience…but a kind of apparition.”

OK, but that’s not to say that what appears in the dream is necessarily literal for the dreamer.

As Thonemann continues, “In their dreams [they] ‘see’ a sequence of discrete and isolated dream-elements (an eagle, a flock of sheep, a whale), each of which is then individually decoded as a symbolic representation of a person or thing in their waking world.”

Perhaps there were those who had a feeling that dreams of gods were part of reality, vs. those who saw dreams as only symbolic.

Quote from Twentier

Eh, I don't know. I really want to dream about Zeus once and put an end to it.

Eikadistes you may like this...and it looks like the main explanation is a podcast recording...I only listened to the first ten minutes, but it seems like it may have some good stuff!

Hypnos & the Poppy: Ancient Greek Dream Incubation — Mira Karakitsou

In this episode, we’ll be meeting the Greek gods of Night, Sleep, and Dreams — Nyx, Hypnos, the Oneiroi, Mnemosyne, and more. We’ll explore dream rituals in…

atemplewild.com

Eikadistes Wishing you a Happy Birthday!

So it seems to me that Absurdism is very much coming out a feeling of an absence of meaning.

I recall that Joshua said both on a podcast and somewhere on the forum, that trying to find meaning was actually a very recent occurrence...was it not until sometime in the 1800's ? (I need to find that thread, or Joshua can you remind me what you said about the history of the question of the meaning of life?)

And I wonder if it comes from western civilization's paradigm of passing through Christianity. Christianity has us live this life only as a kind of preparation for an eternity in heaven. But when you question and reject the existence of God and heaven, you can be left with a kind of "now what?" It's like telling someone "Don't think of elephants" and all you can do is think of elephants. So then we need a new paradigm, and perhaps a modern Epicureanism is exactly what is needed.

Quote from Kalosyni

To be more clear, I would say no, that pleasures of the mind are not more important - they are equally important.

And something else to add...it is always contextual, so sometimes mental is more important and sometimes physical is more important. (I apologize for the disjointed reply).

Cassius could explain this better I think.

Quote from Kalosyni

Quote from UnPaid_Landlord

I have a question Kalosyni I have heard somewhere that Epicurus favoured the pleasures of the mind over the pleasures of body, is that true ?

In some sense you could say that is true: if your mind is full of anxiety then you cannot fully experience and savor the pleasures of the body.

But there is the quote by Diogenes Laertius Book 10, states that Epicurus says: [Section 06] ‘I know not how I can conceive the good, if I withdraw the pleasures of taste and withdraw the pleasures of love and those of hearing and sight.’

To be more clear, I would say no, that pleasures of the mind are not more important - they are equally important.

Because daily you are experiencing both physical and mental pleasures. If you said that mental pleasure was more important, you then would have to try to suppress or avoid the naturally occuring enjoyment of various daily activities.

Quote from UnPaid_Landlord

I have a question Kalosyni I have heard somewhere that Epicurus favoured the pleasures of the mind over the pleasures of body, is that true ?

In some sense you could say that is true: if your mind is full of anxiety then you cannot fully experience and savor the pleasures of the body.

But there is the quote by Diogenes Laertius Book 10, states that Epicurus says: [Section 06] ‘I know not how I can conceive the good, if I withdraw the pleasures of taste and withdraw the pleasures of love and those of hearing and sight.’

UnPaid_Landlord wecome to the forum!

Just a heads up, that we do have a monthly meet-and-greet via Zoom which happens every first Monday of each month. This meeting is open to Introductory Members and provides an opportunity to meet others who are studying the philosophy of Epicurus. We also have a special Epicurean topic of discussion every month, which provides an opportunity to engage in live Zoom-time philosophizing!

Here is the link to find out more (next meeting will happen on August 5th):

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First Monday Epicurean Philosophy Hour (Overview) - 2024

General Overview:

Join us on the first Monday of every month for our forum-wide meet-and-greet and Epicurean philosophy discussion, for registered members of EpicureanFriends.com. Each month we present a special discussion topic, and these will be announced in the dedicated thread for each specific meeting.

For new members who have not attended any previous Zoom meetings: please be sure that you have posted in your personal Welcome Thread, with an introduction of yourself and any background…

Kalosyni

December 26, 2023 at 2:48 PM

*************************************************

**Posts addressing Absurdism have been copied/moved.

**Please post all responses to continued discussion on Absurdism over in this new thread:

Post

The Absurdity of Absurdism (?)

Welcome! @UnPaid_Landlord

[…]

Ha! You're not the only one. Now there are at least three of us here thinking about Absurdism. I don't know exactly what's the link, but I always found Absurdism interesting. Maybe Epicureanism and Absurdism are like moths and fire or peanut better and jelly or something... probably not.

Anyway, if someone wants 10 mins introduction to Absurdism in humorous yet surprisingly insightful way, follow the link. (warning: Parental Advisory Explicit Content)

…

TauPhi

July 4, 2024 at 9:03 PM

Quote from UnPaid_Landlord

What is the Goal of Epicureanism?

It's Aponia and Atraxia, basically a body free of pain and a mind free of trouble,

The highest pleasure itself is Aponia and Atraxia, the limit of pleasure is reached when we attain it.

Here is my take regarding the Epicurean goal:

There are all these pleasures:

• There are pleasures of the body - sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, movement, rest, etc. - and these last for a certain alotment of time (some of these pleasures are very short lived).
• There are pleasures of the mind - joy which arises from friendship, suffienciency, wisdom, learning, gratitude, and remembering pleasurable experiences of the past, etc., ...as well as the cultivated awareness of when body and mind are free from pain - and these pleasures also last for a certain alotment of time (these can have a longer duration (for example it is stated that friendship is an "immortal good").

We do see that eudaimonia is mentioned in the Letter to Menoeceus:

"Reflect on what brings happiness, because if you have that you have everything, but if not you will do everything to attain it."

Eudaimonia is also roughly translated as well-being. So for myself, I see eudaimonia as being the goal (and eudaimonia also includes pleasures).

Being that pleasure is a natural uprising of life, then we accept all pleasures which lead to a life well lived - a full life lived with joy and well-being, and a healthy mind in a healthy body.

Also, if you look at PD 4 again (in post 4), you'll see that there is the word "delight", so to me this points to the idea that pleasure is to actively be sought out.

"Pain does not last continuously in the flesh; instead, the sharpest pain lasts the shortest time, a pain that exceeds bodily pleasures lasts only a few days, and diseases that last a long time involve delights that exceed their pains." - PD 4

So an Epicurean would specifically seek out prudent pleasures.

Quote from UnPaid_Landlord

I am of the nature to die. There is no way to escape death.

And for an Epicurean take on death (which I missed in the above post):

"We are born only once and cannot be born twice, and must forever live no more. You don't control tomorrow, yet you postpone joy. Life is ruined by putting things off, and each of us dies without truly living." - VS14

This could be use some re-wording, so it sounds more upbeat, lol...

...perhaps this:

We are born only once, and we cannot predict when we will die - don't postpone your joy or put off truly living this life.

(Maybe I'll need to work on paraphrasing that one a bit better).

UnPaid_Landlord Great outline!

This section popped out at me:

Quote from UnPaid_Landlord

I am of the nature to grow old. There is no way to escape growing old.

I am of the nature to have ill health. There is no way to escape ill health.

I am of the nature to die. There is no way to escape death.

All that is dear to me and everyone I love are of the nature to change

My actions are my only true belongings and I can't escape their consequences.

While these are somewhat true, I don't think Epicureans would say these kinds of things. (These sound Buddhist?...and they sound a bit depressing to me.)

Here is an Epicurean take on old age:

"It is not the young man who is most happy, but the old man who has lived beautifully; for despite being at his very peak the young man stumbles around as if he were of many minds, whereas the old man has settled into old age as if in a harbor, secure in his gratitude for the good things he was once unsure of." - VS 17

Here is an Epicurean take on ill health:

"Pain does not last continuously in the flesh; instead, the sharpest pain lasts the shortest time, a pain that exceeds bodily pleasures lasts only a few days, and diseases that last a long time involve delights that exceed their pains." - PD 4

Here is an Epicurean take on impermenance:

"The body cries out to not be hungry, not be thirsty, not be cold. Anyone who has these things, and who is confident of continuing to have them, can rival the gods for happiness." - VS 33

...and...

"Misfortune must be cured through gratitude for what has been lost and the knowledge that it is impossible to change what has happened." - VS 55

Here is an Epicurean take on virtuous actions:

"It is not possible to live joyously without also living wisely and beautifully and rightly, nor to live wisely and beautifully and rightly without living joyously; and whoever lacks this cannot live joyously." - PD 5

(All quotes above are Peter Saint-Andre translation).

I am wondering what the "score card" is on this? How many translations say "will" cry out and how many "will not" cry out?

Tomorrow night is our First Monday Zoom Discussion!

The discussion topic is "Guilty Pleasures"...and we'll discuss things like: What qualifies as a "guilty pleasure"...according to whom...and why...what does Epicurus say about moderation...what about guilt/shame...and what was up with Seneca when he said: "Do everything as if Epicurus was watching".

Message me if you need the link...

...hope to see you there!

I just found this which mentions Epicurus at the start yet brings up other philosophers.

It is food for thought about about the role of philosophy:

Existential doubts? Go see a philosopher instead of a psychologist

Philosophical consultation has long operated in the shadows, aiming to resolve crucial dilemmas and foster life tolerance rather than treat mental health issues

english.elpais.com

I don't know if there is a glitch in the software, but at times it appears that private conversations (private messages) go "unread"... and there could be one of the following causes:

1. The android version of the forum doesn't make it very obvious when there is a new private conversation...and either the notification isn't seen or it isn't even showing a notification.

2. The individual is "ignoring" the little red dot that indicates that there is a new message.

3. The message has been read, but the system is registering it as "unread".

So...just a heads up to newer members...to double-check for new private conversations.

Regarding the discussion topic... I'll be presenting some "questions" to spur on a lively and fun discussion.

Hi Everyone, Coming up next Monday on July 1st is our next "First Monday Epicurean Philosophy Hour - Meet-and-Greet and Discussion" - Via Zoom, 8pm ET.

Open to all forum members! And we especially invite those who are new to the forum! This is a great way to meet, converse, and engage with others who are studying the philosophy of Epicurus.

Agenda:

• Welcome (and introductions)
• Discuss some of the lastest popular threads on the forum
• Special discussion topic (includes a very short presentation to introduce the topic)

This month's topic: "Guilty pleasures"? From PD8 to Seneca's "Do everything as if Epicurus were watching you."

We'll be using the same link as last month.

If you have not yet attended a Zoom, please let us know here if you are interested (or send a private message to Cassius or myself) and we will get the link to you by private message (no later than the day before the meeting).

Looking forward to seeing you there!