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There is a concept called the “Ladder of Abstraction” created by American linguist S. I. Hayakawa in his 1939 book Language in Action. It describes the way that humans think and communicate in varying degrees of abstraction.
From concrete at the bottom to abstract at the top:
Up and Down the Ladder of Abstraction – Choosing the appropriate abstraction level – jtoy
This thread is relevant for tonight's discussion:
Found this interesting fragment...that the rituals to the gods were not followed at Epicurus' Symposium:
Athenaeus, Deipnosophists, V p, 179B: Again, Homer tells us what we are to do before we begin to eat, namely, we are to offer as first-fruits some of the food to the gods. ... Homer also shows us the feaster at least offering libations ... all of which Plato also retains in his symposium. But with Epicurus there is no libation, no preliminary offering to the gods; on the contrary, it is like what Simonides says of the lawless woman: "Oftentimes she eats up the offerings before they are consecrated."
Tonight Vatican Sayings 65 & 66!
Open to Level 03+ members (and Level 01 by pre-approval of the moderating team).
Tonight's Agenda:
VS65. It is vain to ask of the gods what a man is capable of supplying for himself.
VS66. Let us show our feeling for our lost friends, not by lamentation, but by meditation.
Today it is coming up in my mind about this particular topic, that since there isn't very much remaining --- Diogenes Laertius lists that Epicurus wrote a book "On Love" (we can only hope it is laying in waiting to be digitally read amongst the chard scrolls of Herculanium) --- and so we will need to gather all the scant evidence from the extant texts and make inferences about it.
Love and the "objects" of love (and with relevance to Valentine's Day since now marketing includes every kind of relationship).
We have this section on the forum (which I will need to study):
This article mentions Epicurus:
Empirical philosophy begins in Greek medicine, which formulates the first imperative to use experience as an instrument of knowledge, and initiates European thinking about methods of empirical inquiry. Antiquity’s greatest thinker on empirical methods was Galen, its greatest doctor. Many leading empirical philosophers had medical training or studied medical writings and collaborated with physicians. This began when Democritus and Epicurus drew medical empiricism into natural philosophy, but their efforts were swamped by the prestigious rationalism of Plato, Aristotle, and the Stoics. The chapter also considers the empiricism of the Babylonians, and the career of empiricism under Islam.
Here is this excerpt from Diogenes Laertius Book X:
Also that in his letters he wrote to Leontion, "O Lord Apollo, my dear little Leontion, with what tumultuous applause we were inspired as we read your letter." Then again to Themista, the wife of Leonteus : "I am quite ready, if you do not come to see me, to spin thrice on my own axis and be propelled to any place that you, including Themista, agree upon" ; and to the beautiful Pythocles he writes : "I will sit down and await thy divine advent, my heart's desire." And, as Theodorus says in the fourth book of his work, Against Epicurus, in another letter to Themista he thinks he preaches to her.10 [6] It is added that he corresponded with many courtesans, and especially with Leontion, of whom Metrodorus also was enamoured. It is observed too that in his treatise On the Ethical End he writes in these
terms11 : "I know not how to conceive the good, apart from the pleasures of taste, sexual pleasures, the pleasures of sound and the pleasures of beautiful form."
wow, that makes sense, well I'll be ready then!
It should be a fun discussion!
I can...or anyone else, who wants to post here some direct quotes from Lucretius, Vatican Sayings, Diogenes Laertius, etc. ...anything that touches on the special topic "On Love"...would be great! 
(In our upcoming discussion, of course we will need to consider all the many meanings of the word "love").
Coming up next Monday is "First Monday Epicurean Philosophy Discussion" - Via Zoom at 8pm ET - Open to forum members.
We now see in stores all the Valentine's hype, so a fun special topic to discuss is: "What does the philosophy of Epicurus have to say about love?" And if we take the big picture view of Epicurean philosophy, let's see if there is anything which we can apply to our lives today.
We'll also have time for open discussion beyond the special topic, such as current popular forum threads or questions.
For those who haven't attended before, let us know if you are interested by posting in this thread or message Cassius or myself.
For any women out there, here is a YouTube which reflects a good understanding regarding groundless opinions (which comes up in the Letter to Menoeceus) which are neither natural nor necessary. This presents some practical ideas about common unrealistic beauty standards, which apply to all women no matter what race or nationality.
and one to illustrate an Epicurean alternative of the same scene.
I made this last year, which by using the bride as representative of pleasure and the bridesmaids as attendants gives it a more modern twist which is likely slightly different than what Cassius was envisioning.
As far as the question "is it a religion" to me goes. Does it take the place of a contemporary religion in your daily life? IE Does it inform your sense of morality and justice, do you draw comfort or strength from it's teachings? Do you endeavor to live as an Epicurean or is it just a discussion topic, would be the dividing line for me.
It is coming to me, that there can be lots of ways that one could decide to refer to how they feel about Epicurean philosophy...and now the idea of "life philosophy" is popping into my head...or "world view" -- and probably the benefit of deciding on a particular label is that if you want to talk about it to a friend who doesn't know anything about it, then you could use your chosen label to convey what you feel about it. And I could imagine that if one said it was a religion, then their friend would be asking different questions than if one said "life philosophy" but everyone can choose to go there or not, depending on how they feel.
And I do think you'd have two slightly divergent groups if one group says "we have a church and this is a religion" compared to "we have a life philosophy, and this is a practice group".
Some thoughts this morning...So there could be these two desires:
1. A desire to bring an internal "religious/spiritual" aspect to one's thoughts regarding the importance and application of Epicurean philosophy. This could be done on one's own. And there are as many ways to give words to this as there are individuals.
2. A desire to bring a group of people together for an "Epicurean Church".
My thoughts coming up: as soon as you move from what is internal to creating an externalization of this in a group or church setting, then you will have a few problems on your hands. 1) The problem of power vs. submission - who will lead the church and how will they do it. 2) How will the church deal with those who are not properly submitting to the leaders or goals of the church 3) How will the church remove a leader that is doing unethical actions, behaving in a overly-controlling manner, or working against the long-term goals of the church. 4) Since the idea of being "tax-exempt" came up and usually churches give monetary support to their leaders, there is the question of how does paying someone for their time affect how the leader leads a group, and how does it affect the people who are giving money to the leader (how they all relate to each other, and which further feeds into the problem of power vs. submission).
Tonight Vatican Sayings 63 & 64!
Open to Level 03+ members (and Level 01 by pre-approval of the moderating team).
Tonight's Agenda:
VS63. Frugality too has a limit, and the man who disregards it is like him who errs through excess.
VS64. Praise from others must come unasked, and we must concern ourselves with the healing of our own lives.
This brought up the idea that the label "superstition" has not always been understood in the way that we do in the modern scientific world. Just found this book "Superstition: A Very Short Introduction"
Abstract (Chapter 1 - The Origins of Superstition):
‘The origins of superstition’ describes practices of magic, prophecy, and divination in the ancient world, and the changing meaning of superstition through time. Throughout its long history, superstition has been a transactional concept with no fixed meaning of its own except in contrast to some other, more accepted world-view. The origin of the concept is found in ancient Greece in the 4th century bce, and for the next 2,000 years, superstition stood in contrast to the religious practices recommended by the elites. The word ‘superstition’ has often been levelled at practices that, even today, we would consider magical or paranormal, and yet versions of most of these practices are still with us.
Source link:
Happy Birthday! EricR
There appears to be two camps within the current resurgance of Epicurean philosophy:
- One camp who may wish to see a special kind of reverence and a special way of interacting and disseminating the historical ideas of Epicurus, by labeling it "a religion", and there-by appealing to those who are looking for something "bigger-than-themselves", and perscribing certain behaviors in line with "religious feelings", as well as creating a "priestly/teacher class" and a "student/disciple class" within a tight-knit community that shares the same urge for how to view Epicureanism.
I feel fairly certain that most of us here on this EpicureanFriends forum do not fall into this first camp. However if there are some who do, then you may enjoy the company of others who have that same belief by checking out what is offered by the Society of Friends of Epicurus. From their FAQ page there is a link to a page explaining more about how they view things regarding Epicureanism as a Religious Identity.
Now for the other camp, as I see it myself regarding my personal view of Epicurean philosophy, and which many others here on this forum may also hold as a beneficial view: Epicureanism is (and should be seen as) a philosophy and not a religion.
Here are a few benefits of seeing Epicureanism as a philosophy rather than a religion:
1. Your personal understanding comes first rather than having to depend on interpretations outside of yourself - you interprete the extant texts as it pleases you, because you apply them to modern life and your own unique situation.
2. If you are dealing with very troubling issues, you visit a therapist rather than rely upon Epicurean teachings (and rather then relying on religious rituals or potentially relying on "teachers" who are not therapists).
3. You are free to test Epicurean philosophy and reject the parts that do not work for you.
4. You are not expected to do any rituals or attend any meetings, and you will still be respected if you don't participate, and your respect will be based on your understanding rather than adherence to "religious goals" - and there are no religious goals or rituals, rather only personal goals which you freely choose for yourself.
5. It feels safe, free, and open for those who are atheists to participate in studying the philosophy of Epicurus - because there is no group requirement regarding the "gods/god" and this is something to be considered for each person privately.
Kalsoyni here, answering on behalf of Cassius.
Cyrano, This new feature was just added, so you can just click on the dialog bubble under each person's profile on the left hand side of any post.
Wednesday Night Zoom at 8pm ET:
Open to Level 03+ members (and Level 01 by pre-approval of the moderating team).
Tonight's Agenda:
VS61. Most beautiful too is the sight of those near and dear to us, when our original kinship makes us of one mind; for such sight is great incitement to this end.
VS62. Now if parents are justly angry with their children, it is certainly useless to fight against it, and not to ask for pardon; but if their anger is unjust and irrational, it is quite ridiculous to add fuel to their irrational passion by nursing one’s own indignation, and not to attempt to turn aside their wrath in other ways by gentleness.
