Posts by Kalosyni

There appears to be two camps within the current resurgance of Epicurean philosophy:

- One camp who may wish to see a special kind of reverence and a special way of interacting and disseminating the historical ideas of Epicurus, by labeling it "a religion", and there-by appealing to those who are looking for something "bigger-than-themselves", and perscribing certain behaviors in line with "religious feelings", as well as creating a "priestly/teacher class" and a "student/disciple class" within a tight-knit community that shares the same urge for how to view Epicureanism.

I feel fairly certain that most of us here on this EpicureanFriends forum do not fall into this first camp. However if there are some who do, then you may enjoy the company of others who have that same belief by checking out what is offered by the Society of Friends of Epicurus. From their FAQ page there is a link to a page explaining more about how they view things regarding Epicureanism as a Religious Identity.

Now for the other camp, as I see it myself regarding my personal view of Epicurean philosophy, and which many others here on this forum may also hold as a beneficial view: Epicureanism is (and should be seen as) a philosophy and not a religion.

Here are a few benefits of seeing Epicureanism as a philosophy rather than a religion:

1. Your personal understanding comes first rather than having to depend on interpretations outside of yourself - you interprete the extant texts as it pleases you, because you apply them to modern life and your own unique situation.

2. If you are dealing with very troubling issues, you visit a therapist rather than rely upon Epicurean teachings (and rather then relying on religious rituals or potentially relying on "teachers" who are not therapists).

3. You are free to test Epicurean philosophy and reject the parts that do not work for you.

4. You are not expected to do any rituals or attend any meetings, and you will still be respected if you don't participate, and your respect will be based on your understanding rather than adherence to "religious goals" - and there are no religious goals or rituals, rather only personal goals which you freely choose for yourself.

5. It feels safe, free, and open for those who are atheists to participate in studying the philosophy of Epicurus - because there is no group requirement regarding the "gods/god" and this is something to be considered for each person privately.

Kalsoyni here, answering on behalf of Cassius.

Cyrano, This new feature was just added, so you can just click on the dialog bubble under each person's profile on the left hand side of any post.

Wednesday Night Zoom at 8pm ET:

Open to Level 03+ members (and Level 01 by pre-approval of the moderating team).

Tonight's Agenda:

1. Welcome
2. Discuss current forum threads of interest & latest podcast
3. Discussion on Vatican Sayings 61 & 62:

VS61. Most beautiful too is the sight of those near and dear to us, when our original kinship makes us of one mind; for such sight is great incitement to this end.

VS62. Now if parents are justly angry with their children, it is certainly useless to fight against it, and not to ask for pardon; but if their anger is unjust and irrational, it is quite ridiculous to add fuel to their irrational passion by nursing one’s own indignation, and not to attempt to turn aside their wrath in other ways by gentleness.

• We will continue with the same Zoom link as previous Wednesday night meetings.
• Level 03 members - those who haven't previously attended, please let us know here in this thread if you are interested, or message me.
• Level 01 members - message me or Cassius if you are interested in attending (to be considered for approval by the moderator team).

Thank you Cassius for your clarification on this topic in post 12 above.

More thoughts on this today...thinking it may be good to consider how popular "finding meaning" and "meaningfulness" is in "self-help" books and likely also modern therapy. And I think there is a lot of baggage with using these words -- epecially for myself since I've read quite a few "self-help" books and perhaps that is why I find it to be such an issue (and I think this is going to be a little like a hydra monster, in that it could keep coming back over and over, and I still need to think through this some more).

Joshua brought this topic up in the last podcast (Episode 210 will be up soon) and shared the historical context of "finding meaning", and this is a relatively new idea.

Wishing you a Happy Birthday Onenski !

An idea came to me that maybe the text of this could be put into a 2 column table which has a commentary running along side it with further explanation.

Thinking further about "finding meaning", a person is only going to have this question come up when they are feeling in doubt of their internal sense of resilience and when they are lacking in coping strategies -- check out this thread and the post on the BASIC-ph model for a much better way to build resilience.

In another thread the idea of "finding meaning" came up, and it reminded me about this much more useful model, which I think is much more effective for coping -- it is called the "BASIC-ph Model of Coping" created by Mooli Lahad.

It incorporates 6 aspects for good coping...and one of them is physical pleasure (under the label "Physiological").

Here is a diagram I drew:

Here is a website that has brief explanation (but it's not the site from which I created the above diagram).

Quote from Pacatus

Third, when such down-to-earth ideas of “meaning” are seriously considered, the notion that Epicurean philosophy offers no means to (or opportunity for) personal meaning itself seems absurd.

Further thoughts coming up in regard to "meaning". Most concerning to me in the call to "search for meaning" is the implication that happiness is not possible so that the best one can do is have a "meaningful life". This is so divorced from pleasure, especially normal animal pleasures, and shows how there is a mistaken and unnecessary distrust of pleasure. Also, missing is that we have basic human needs for social interaction and for friendship, which we need for living a happy life.

It appears to me that Frankl's advice was born out of an extreme worst case scenario which required extreme coping mechanisms - a scenario that most people thankfully will never need to encounter. We are living ordinary and secure lives which are much much different. I see the "search for meaning" as an attempt to deal with severe mental anguish, but I think it is going about the problem in the wrong way.

Ultimately if we follow that which brings both short-term and long-term pleasure, we will naturally arive at a "meaningful" life - one in which we do not have to prove that we are good or smart or talented in order to try to get approval from others. So Epicureans have a much different understanding of the word "meaningful".

We also can avoid falling into the trap that something isn't truely "meaningful" unless others also see it as "meaningful" (a "meaningful" life for some could just be one step away from a "virtuous" life, for example according to the common idea that serving others is a pathway to a meaningful life.)

BrainToBeing

The "search for meaning" is put upon a pedestal such that the word "meaning" becomes an empty abstraction, as empty as the word "virtue". It means nothing except in reference to something else, and everything always comes back to pleasure and pain, because those are what nature gives us by which to decide what to choose and what to avoid. The Epicurean goal of finding and pursuing pleasure (both physical and mental) seeks for joy and happiness in life. If "meaning" doesn't provide joy and happiness then it is worthless.

It seems that you are coming from a mindset that makes it difficult for you to think about the benefits of Epicurean philosophy, because it appears you don't agree with some basic concepts of Epicurean philosophy - especially with regard to the Epicurean criticism of "virtue". You can read more about it here:

Cicero's "Torquatus" Presentation of Epicurean Ethics - from "On Ends" - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

Here is tonight's agenda:

VS59. It is not the stomach that is insatiable, as is generally said, but the false opinion that the stomach needs an unlimited amount to fill it.

VS60. Every man passes out of life as though he had just been born.

- Level 03 members: for those who haven't previously attended, please let us know here in this thread if you are interested, or message me.

- Level 01 members can attend by pre-approval - message Cassius if you are interested in attending (to be considered for approval by the moderator team).

thatchickinpa Welcome to the forum!

You might enjoy this YouTube video, by Cassius, on the "Major Aspects of Epicurean Philsophy":

Quote from BrainToBeing

... since the classical authors referenced here lived 2000+ years ago, has anything changed? What, if anything, is new in the philosophy of life (contrasted to these classical perspectives)?

We leave it for each individual to clearly see that modern science has greatly developed beyond what was known in the time of Epicurus.

As for the existential issues, these still apply today...the fear of death, unnecessarily becoming anxious regarding mortality or entertaining ideas about an after-life, god, etc, etc...what Epicurus had to say still has relevance.

The goal for this EpicureanFriends forum is to study the extant texts and to apply the philosophy as presented by Epicurus. A student of Epicurus takes the aspects of the philosophy which resonate and tests it, and applies it to their own lives.

So this forum is a place for focusing solely on what Epicurus taught.

I wonder, perhaps you aren't feel the resonance . I'm not out to convert or convince anyone . Of course anyone is welcome to study other philosophies, and one can find elsewhere many other places on the internet for other philosophies.

The current limitation of this Epicurean forum right now is that there is a lot of information which is not presented in a very "linear" manner. The threads are not straightforward, and require a lot reading. Each person will need to dive in for themselves, and also need to study the extant texts in order to make sense of it all. We also recommend a book by Norman De Witt "Epicurus and His Philosophy".

I urge you and wish you well, to pursue what personally works best for you.

Join us for our continued discussion on the Vatican Sayings - tonight is VS 56, 57, & 58.

Open to Level 03+ members (and Level 01 by pre-approval of the moderating team).

Tonight's Agenda:

1. Welcome
2. Current matters to address
3. Current forum threads of interest / latest podcast
4. Discussion on VS 56, 57, and 58:

VS56. The wise man feels no more pain, when being tortured himself than when his friend is tortured.

VS57. On occasion a man will die for his friend, for if he betrays his friend, his whole life will be confounded by distrust and completely upset.

VS58. We must free ourselves from the prison of public education and politics.

• We will continue with the same Zoom link as previous Wednesday night meetings.
• Level 03 members - those who haven't previously attended, please let us know here in this thread if you are interested, or message me.
• Level 01 members - message Cassius if you are interested in attending (to be considered for approval by the moderator team).

Thank you to everyone who attended last night's meeting. We had a total of 9 people attend.

Our brief topic of discussion was: Would Epicurus be in favor of New Year's resolutions? (And people were welcome to add any personal thoughts on setting New Year's resolutions).

Here are some discussion comments from several participants (paraphrased):

• Would not want to guess what Epicurus thought, but he would likely be in favor.
• It works best to think of a resolution as an intention, so setting an intention.
• Being against the idea of "binge and purge".
• Importance of taking "baby steps" when setting a goal or resolution.
• No need to limit setting a resolution to only the start of the year - it can be done all year long.

Here are the slides I included at the start of the discussion:

Hi Raphael Raul thank your for your introduction here and in your Welcome Thread

You have now been added to the Zoom link conversation, and looking forward to meeting you tonight!

Happy New Year 2024 and a Happy First Day of the Gregorian Calendar year!

May you be well and may you be safe, and may you live in the fullness of pleasure!

Cassius I'd like to request that we add back in "Posts" on each person's profile page, which appeared before but is now missing (I used this a lot to navigate to something I had posted within the last few days/week).

Regarding polls...it's a learning experience still for me...I should have included an option for multiple ways of accessing the forum (also I wanted to find out if my hunch was true, that most people use cellphones).

The forum appearance and experience is different when using cellphone compared to tablet or laptop. I think it is much better now for cellphone since the upgrade, because the various tool icons are more visable and user friendly.

Depending on the type of device used, perhaps we still need to compare and contrast between multiple device types to determine if something is missing or could be improved.