Posts by Kalosyni

There isn't much in Epicurean texts regarding pain. Here are some further thoughts on the subjective perception of pain.

Thinking of how there could be gradations or varying levels of pain, that range from mild discomfort to very painful (in the body)

1) a bearly noticeable feeling of discomfort

2) a slight feeling of pain

3) a moderate feeling pain

4) a strong feeling of pain

5) an excrutiating feeling pain

(or 1 -- 2/3 -- 5 --7/8 --10 on a scale of 1 to 10)

But for mental pain there are emotions and feelings which feel unpleasant, and the worst ones involve both the mind and the body (such as extreme anger, fear, or panic).

What is terrible is easy to endure. (fourth point of the Tetrapharmakos) and also:

PD 4 - Pain does not last continuously in the flesh; instead, the sharpest pain lasts the shortest time, a pain that exceeds bodily pleasure lasts only a few days, and diseases that last a long time involve delights that exceed their pains.

We've talked about this in many other threads, and maybe could use this thread to post links to previous discussions.

He has a few of his own interpretations, ideas, and "self-help" twists thrown in. And he focuses on the Tetrapharmakos.

From the very ending of the article:

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After doing something new, or even something you’ve always done, ask yourself after, “Was this worth it? Did it make me happy?” This seems like such an obvious question — but it often goes unasked, and people become unintentional gluttons for punishment.

Second, ask, “Does this serve me in some other way in the future?” This could mean — building a skill, or stepping outside of your comfort zone.

Ideally, at least one of these two questions should have a yes answer. If not, consider moving on to something else. Conversely, if you answered yes to both, it’s probably time to double down.

Another key point, is to implement what Dr. Arthur C. Brooks calls, “A Happiness Portfolio”, which is rooted in the epicurean philosophy. This means your life includes family, friendship, helpful beliefs, and work that provides meaning to your life and, better yet, society. Consider this a well-diversified portfolio of life principles that can guide you forward.

Remember to think like an Epicurean — and know that hardship isn’t required for every beneficial and meaningful activity in life. Stay mindful and reflective of things you engage in, and people you engage with, and continually audit if they are bringing value in your life. Outside of that, take a load off, and enjoy your day.

This is a fascinating article:

Excerpt of the start of the article:

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Distinct days and nights have helped life flourish on Earth. But many alien worlds capable of supporting life may not have such clear delineations.

Do aliens sleep? You may take sleep for granted, but research suggests many planets that could evolve life don't have a day-night cycle. It's hard to imagine, but there are organisms living in Earth's lightless habitats, deep underground or at the bottom of the sea, that give us an idea what alien life without a circadian rhythm may be like.

There are billions of potentially habitable planets in our galaxy. How do we arrive at this number? The Milky Way has between 100 billion and 400 billion stars.

Alien worlds might not have a night and day. How would that change evolution?

Distinct days and nights have helped life flourish on Earth. But many alien worlds capable of supporting life may not have such clear delineations.

www.bbc.com

Quote from Cassius

The switch has to be made from thinking that Epicurus was preaching tranquility and asceticism as his goal to understanding it as it appears the ancients understood it: that "pleasure" includes every aspect of life that we find valuable, and that given the shortness of life - every aspect that isn't unproductively painful is in fact pleasurable. We even choose pain on a regular basis when we expect it to lead to greater pleasure.

On an individual level we can make choices, based on our sensations and our needs. The entire spectrum from quietude/rest to fully active/fast movement is all conducive to bringing pleasure when a person is clear-minded.

Yet, there are still the needs of the "group" and here I am refering to a given group of Epicurean students and friends -- and I think the ultimate goal would be to hold in-person gatherings. If the group has mostly introverts, then the choices for the group will be different than the choices for a group of extroverts. And if you end up with a mixed group of both introverts and extroverts, then perhaps there will be less group cohesion with differing ideas, wants, and needs.

I would venture say that some introverts are more physiologically sensitive to their pain receptors (both bodily and mentally) and also process sensory input differently -- I think I posted some articles over in the "Practical applications/Lifestyle" section of the forum a while ago on this (will need to find them).

Quote from Cassius

As long as the false focus on "tranquility" and "simplicity" and other aspects that are not ends in themselves remains the standard interpretation, Epicurean philosophy will remain in the shadows.

We need to have a detailed yet quick way show how this false interpretation is incorrect, and use qoutes from Epicurean sources -- likely there already something in the FAQ section of the forum. And we all need to be able to explain it in just a few sentences.

Quote from Eric

I am able and willing to attend : )

Thank you Eric . You'll receive the link by private message the day before the meeting.

Quote from Don

αὔριον εἰς λιτήν σε καλιάδα, φίλτατε Πείσων,

ἐξ ἐνάτης ἕλκει μουσοφιλὴς ἕταρος,

εἰκάδα δειπνίζων ἐνιαύσιον: εἰ δ᾽ ἀπολείψεις

οὔθατα καὶ Βρομίου χιογενῆ πρόποσιν,

ἀλλ᾽ ἑτάρους ὄψει παναληθέας, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπακούσῃ

Φαιήκων γαίης πουλὺ μελιχρότερα:

ἢν δέ ποτε στρέψῃς καὶ ἐς ἡμέας ὄμματα, Πείσων,

ἄξομεν ἐκ λιτῆς εἰκάδα πιοτέρην.

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Don English translation?

This month the 20th falls on a Sunday, and we are holding the Twentieth at a special time:

-- 1pm EDT (USA) --

This time should hopefully help make it easier for members in Europe and other places to attend -- This meeting is open to all forum members. (In November we will go back to our usual meeting time).

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Background: The Twentieth as a commemoration and assembly date was established by the ancient Epicureans in memory of Epicurus and Metrodorus.

From the will of Epicurus in Diogenes Laertius:

"The income of the property left by me to Amynomachus and Timocrates shall be divided by them as far as possible, with the advice of Hermarchus, for the offerings in honor of my father and mother and brothers, and for the customary celebration of my birthday every year on the tenth of Gamelion, and likewise for the assembly of my disciples which takes place on the twentieth of each month, having been established in recollection of myself and Metrodorus. Let them also keep the day of my brothers in Poseideon and the day of Polyaenus in Metageitmon, as I have done myself."

*******************

October 20th Agenda:

• Welcome
• Short reading in commemoration of Epicurus and Metrodorus
• Short biography of this month's notable Epicureans: Titus Lucretius Carus and Rabirius and Catius Insuber
• Open discussion on Epicurean philosophy and popular forum threads, current topics on the forum, the podcast, Epicurean musings and projects, etc.
• Closing comments

*******************

Anyone who has attended the 20th in the past, will automatically be added to the private Zoom link conversation.

For anyone else, please let us know here in this thread or by private conversation, so that we can get the link to you.

Quote from Cleveland Okie

(I ran a search for "Epicurean" to see if there are any such blogs on Substack, and all of the ones I could find with the word "Epicurean" in the title were food blogs!)

That gave me an idea...perhaps a food blog combined with Epicurean philosophy! All the epicurean foodies out there may be ready and needing some philosophy!

Quote from SillyApe

I think our society is slowly becoming more aligned with Epicureanism, even if most people have never heard about Epicurus.

Quote from SillyApe

the wisdom of how to deal with life in a way that maximizes pleasure and minimizes pain.

Yes, you can certainly see situations in which individuals are implementing good choices and avoidances.

And, yet there are many areas in which some of the "stickier" existential Epicurean philosophical points are not making much headway.

For example, death with dignity: on the one hand it may seem like this is moving forward, but you can read an article here about how few states in the US allow it (and you cannot just fly to another state, but you have to be a resident of that state and go through a very long process). And if you read the news about what happened with the Sarco pod, you will also see how the resistance (likely due to deeply held religious/spiritual beliefs).

Patrikios you have been added to the link conversation, so check for that in your private conversations section. Looking forward to meeting you.

I am adding this here rather than over in this thread, because while it isn't exactly what Philodemus wrote (point 4 is modified), I feel that it is in alignment with Epicurean philosophy.

There could be multiple ways to express a "Four-point Cure":

1. God minds their own business and thus we have no need to fear them.

2. There is no need to dread death for no consciousness will remain to sense it.

3. The goods which are necessary for life and happiness are readily available to aquire.

4. The evils which bring the most terrible pains to the hoi polloi are actually easy to avoid.

(But then maybe an 8-point cure could encompass more .)

This is sort of what I am envisioning for an oval pendant. The first image below is from a picture I took of the the side profile of a 3-D printed Epicurus bust that I have, and then used Canva to adjust the image. His features look like a young version of Epicurus (and perhap the nose and mouth aren't quite right). The second image is both Dalle and Canva. (not quite satisfied with this one either). I'll need to see what I can find at a craft store for making resin molds. I would need to print it out with a good quality printer. Still thinking about what would be on the other side of it.

Thank you!  Don for explaining the ancient Greek words used, very helpful.

Reason I was asking was that I thought that perhaps "terrible" was refering to "unnatural and unnecessary" - and that came out of my idea that "the pains from the unnatural and unnecessary are easy to avoid" - but looks like I was way off on that.

And as you are saying, the correct translation is: "the terrible is easily endured".

Don I was just re-reading through post number 5 above, and pondering that there is a lot there - if only we had the full text - there are so many lines and words missing...(if we had it things would be so much clearer).

And wondering...for the 4th on the list, perhaps instead of "easy to endure" it should say "easy to avoid"?

And also recalling in what Cassius wrote above, about avoiding the over-simplified version of the Tetrapharmakos.

Perhaps needing to revisit the best way to state the four points to their fullest

Those are great Bryan !

And gives me some creative ideas of my own (envisioning ovals)

In last night's Zoom we briefly talked about this thread, and it was helpful for me. It seems that the above scenerio was not translating to others in the same way as it happened in my own thinking.

I was attempting to isolate and produce a sense of awareness of how mortality is complete - that any and all sense of "who I am" and "what I have done" is gone when consciousness ends. What remains after my death is: 1) an ephemeral memory within the minds of people who still live 2) some essence of what I have taught others through my words and my actions 3) written books or other creative endeavors which may last beyond my death, but which will at some point in time be destroyed or lost.

And now a slightly different scenerio:

Imagine yourself having just come out of having lived an entire year, but you cannot remember anything that happened. But other people can remember what you did during that year, and you also still experience any consequences of what you did. The point of this exercise is to bring into focus the choices around pleasures of the body and what you will pursue and what you will reject (and as in the Letter to Menoeceus not the pleasures of a profligate).

Also, so that after you die will it have mattered if you were an astronaut, a college professor, a parent, a retail sales worker, an internet blogger, etc. etc. - but more that as you lived you went through life with a clear mind and "an enjoyable smooth sailing".

Coming up this next Monday night, at 8pm ET, is our First Monday Epicurean Philosophy Discussion and meet-and-greet!

This month we have one new member looking to attend, and if there are any other introductory members (or established members who have never attended) interested please let us know and we can add you to the Zoom link list (link goes out the day before the meeting).

Looking forward to seeing you there!

Quote from Don

Hmm... I'm still struggling with the hypothetical, even in light of your revision.

I'll need to think about if it is possible to revise it (and add in the element of how much money would be available for the hypothetical "vacation"...and that there is also the option that it could be a "stay-cation").

Quote from Don

To me, that finality has more to do with being content with the idea of dying right now.

There is the aspect of accepting death when the time arrives, and there is also the aspect of making choices during a lifespan.

Of course in the real world, we need to work and do household upkeep so that we can have suffiency and a certain level of comfort...so there is the necessity of procuring the necessities for the continuation of life.

Quote from Don

If your memories are solely your own with no one who experienced them with you?

Ultimately we each have a unique vantage point on reality which gives rise to our subjective inner experience - so much of what we experience is held subjectively. After we die it won't matter if we sat on the butt our whole life or if we were a globe trotter. But the quality of either choice does matter - was the moment to moment unfolding experience of sitting on the butt "okay"? Or was the moment to moment unfolding experience of globe trotting "okay"? (and did unwanted consequences come about from aquiring the wealth which was required to be a globe trotter?) By "okay" I mean that it was satisfactory and not painful in some way.

For the thought experiment, I should state that during that one year, everything including your memory functions as normal. It would be only after the one year is over that your memory is erased.