Posts by Kalosyni

Don I was just re-reading through post number 5 above, and pondering that there is a lot there - if only we had the full text - there are so many lines and words missing...(if we had it things would be so much clearer).

And wondering...for the 4th on the list, perhaps instead of "easy to endure" it should say "easy to avoid"?

And also recalling in what Cassius wrote above, about avoiding the over-simplified version of the Tetrapharmakos.

Perhaps needing to revisit the best way to state the four points to their fullest

Those are great Bryan !

And gives me some creative ideas of my own (envisioning ovals)

In last night's Zoom we briefly talked about this thread, and it was helpful for me. It seems that the above scenerio was not translating to others in the same way as it happened in my own thinking.

I was attempting to isolate and produce a sense of awareness of how mortality is complete - that any and all sense of "who I am" and "what I have done" is gone when consciousness ends. What remains after my death is: 1) an ephemeral memory within the minds of people who still live 2) some essence of what I have taught others through my words and my actions 3) written books or other creative endeavors which may last beyond my death, but which will at some point in time be destroyed or lost.

And now a slightly different scenerio:

Imagine yourself having just come out of having lived an entire year, but you cannot remember anything that happened. But other people can remember what you did during that year, and you also still experience any consequences of what you did. The point of this exercise is to bring into focus the choices around pleasures of the body and what you will pursue and what you will reject (and as in the Letter to Menoeceus not the pleasures of a profligate).

Also, so that after you die will it have mattered if you were an astronaut, a college professor, a parent, a retail sales worker, an internet blogger, etc. etc. - but more that as you lived you went through life with a clear mind and "an enjoyable smooth sailing".

Coming up this next Monday night, at 8pm ET, is our First Monday Epicurean Philosophy Discussion and meet-and-greet!

This month we have one new member looking to attend, and if there are any other introductory members (or established members who have never attended) interested please let us know and we can add you to the Zoom link list (link goes out the day before the meeting).

Looking forward to seeing you there!

Happy Birthday Cassius !

Quote from Don

Hmm... I'm still struggling with the hypothetical, even in light of your revision.

I'll need to think about if it is possible to revise it (and add in the element of how much money would be available for the hypothetical "vacation"...and that there is also the option that it could be a "stay-cation").

Quote from Don

To me, that finality has more to do with being content with the idea of dying right now.

There is the aspect of accepting death when the time arrives, and there is also the aspect of making choices during a lifespan.

Of course in the real world, we need to work and do household upkeep so that we can have suffiency and a certain level of comfort...so there is the necessity of procuring the necessities for the continuation of life.

Quote from Don

If your memories are solely your own with no one who experienced them with you?

Ultimately we each have a unique vantage point on reality which gives rise to our subjective inner experience - so much of what we experience is held subjectively. After we die it won't matter if we sat on the butt our whole life or if we were a globe trotter. But the quality of either choice does matter - was the moment to moment unfolding experience of sitting on the butt "okay"? Or was the moment to moment unfolding experience of globe trotting "okay"? (and did unwanted consequences come about from aquiring the wealth which was required to be a globe trotter?) By "okay" I mean that it was satisfactory and not painful in some way.

For the thought experiment, I should state that during that one year, everything including your memory functions as normal. It would be only after the one year is over that your memory is erased.

Looks like more explanation is needed... ( Don this is not about dementia, but I see how you might have thought that).

After you die, you won't be around to know that you can't remember anything that happened during your life.

But by running through the thought experiment, my idea was that we can recreate a portion of what the lack of knowing would be like. As the body dies our consciousness also disperses (dies), and we won't remember anything because there won't be a brain to remember. This thought experiment is to help step outside of our "business as usual" frame of mind which has trouble cognizing the state of death.

So here is again, what I wrote for the scenerio:

Quote from Kalosyni

Set-up:

You must take a year-long vacation, but your memory of it will be erased, all your photos and notes to yourself will be lost or deleted, and anything you buy during that time will also be taken away at the end. In essence it will be as if it never happened, except for the people that you talked to during that time will still remember.

Question:

Given the above scenario, what do you do during that one year time?

Set-up:

You must take a year-long vacation, but your memory of it will be erased, all your photos and notes to yourself will be lost or deleted, and anything you buy during that time will also be taken away at the end. In essence it will be as if it never happened, except for the people that you talked to during that time will still remember.

Question:

Given the above scenario, what do you do during that one year time?

SillyApe I would say there are differing views amongst forum members about "risk assessment" and "risk avoidance".

In the opening of Book 2 of Lucretius ' De Rerum Natura, we read:

Quote

Tis sweet, when, down the mighty main, the winds
Roll up its waste of waters, from the land
To watch another's labouring anguish far,
Not that we joyously delight that man
Should thus be smitten, but because 'tis sweet
To mark what evils we ourselves be spared;
'Tis sweet, again, to view the mighty strife
Of armies embattled yonder o'er the plains,
Ourselves no sharers in the peril; but naught
There is more goodly than to hold the high
Serene plateaus, well fortressed by the wise,
Whence thou may'st look below on other men
And see them ev'rywhere wand'ring, all dispersed
In their lone seeking for the road of life;

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As far as space travel of any kind, my own feeling is to watch others do it rather than do it myself. Zero gravity is very hard on the human body, and there is the potential for mission mishaps and failures. I find it amazing that anyone even chooses the risk. It is just a hobby of mine to read up about what is happening.

As far as the above Lucretius quote, I would take it to mean that you just can't stop war (or space travel), but you can be happy when you yourself are safe and free from the troubles that accompany those endeavors.

Welcome to the forum SillyApe

Quote from Julia

Just to avoid confusion ("to come up with" can be: invent or find/remember), the numbered sentences are all historic (CIL is the Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum).

Thanks and editing my above post

Here is a very long way of saying it (lol):

For an eternity I did not exist, but then I was born.
I died, and now for an eternity I will no longer exist.
Nothing of me remains to be concerned about this.

Quote from Julia

If I may add:

olim non fuimus, nati sumus unde, quieti nunc sumus, ut fuimus, cura relicta (CIL 8.4840) [This one is a bit long]
non fui, fui, non sum, non desidero (CIL 6.38506) [Too Buddhist for me…]
non fui, et sum, non ero, non mihi dolet (CIL 6.9258) [Too Stoic for me…]
non fui, deinde fui, modo non sum (CIL 2.404) [Getting closer]

→ "Non fui, nunc sum, non ero"

Seeing various collected versions and also the very last, brings up wanting to try out a version myself. (Edit 12:29 ET)

I put it all into Google translate and this is what I got:

once we were not, whence we were born, now we are at rest, as we were, care left (CIL 8.4840) [This one is a bit long]
I was not, I was, I am not, I do not miss (CIL 6.38506) [Too Buddhist for me…]
I was not, and I am, I will not be, it does not hurt me (CIL 6.9258) [Too Stoic for me…]
I was not, then I was, but I am not (CIL 2.404) [Getting closer]
→ "I was not, now I am, I will not be"

Plus this article:

Spirit in the Stacks  | American Libraries Magazine

Public libraries across the US are lending out ghost-hunting kits to patrons.

americanlibrariesmagazine.org

This morning I saw a headline in the Washington Post about libraries loaning out ghost hunting kits.

Here is the USA, as we head into the "Halloween Season" time of the calendar (which seems to get longer and "bigger" each year) I have been thinking about how important it is to be grounded in a realistic worldview of matter and phenomenon having natural causes. Back in the September first Monday Zoom, we discussed what this worldview should be labeled, and the concensus in that meeting was the label "materialism". However I see a problem with that label because it has a double meaning (the belief that money and material possessions are the most important thing in life - which is not what Epicureans believe at all) and wondering if we could come up with a better label. I think that the "philosophical materialist worldview" is a very important aspect of Epicurean philosophy for many reasons.

I found this article about a poll of 1000 people in which 41% said that they believe in ghosts. Here is an excerpt:

Quote

Never before in history have people recorded so many ghost encounters, thanks in part to mobile phone cameras and microphones. It seems there would be great evidence by now. But scientists don't have it.

Instead, there are lots of ambiguous recordings sabotaged by bad lighting and faulty equipment. But popular television shows on ghost hunting convince many viewers that blurry images and emotional reactions are proof enough.

As for all the devices ghost hunters use to capture sounds, electrical fields and infrared radiation – they may look scientific, but they're not. Measurements are worthless without some knowledge of the thing you're measuring.

You can read more about it:

Millions of Americans Believe in Ghosts. An Expert Reveals Why.

Certainly, lots of people believe in ghosts – a spirit left behind after someone who was alive has died.

www.sciencealert.com

Here is the thread that I created on meaning:

Thread

Meaning and Satisfaction for Epicureans

There are a few other threads and posts that bring up the topic of "meaning", but just this morning I was thinking about it again.

It seems to me that "meaning" and "meaningful" - as in "my life has meaning" or "my life is meaningful"...for an Epicurean could be translated to this:

--- I am feeling satisfied with how my life is going ---

We really can't put the "meaning"-genie back in the bottle, and so we need to reframe it in Epicurean terms.

To start, perhaps the idea "meaning of life" comes to…

Kalosyni

August 21, 2024 at 4:20 PM

Quote from Eoghan Gardiner

Figures on social media platforms, such as john vervaeke

I had to look him up because I don't know anything about him. I found this summary of some of his ideas.

The idea that the loss of religion is causing a "meaning crisis"...my first reaction is this: "correlation does not equal causation".

Perhaps (and this just an idea) the "meaning crisis" is that people neither feel a sense of belonging with people within their immediate surroundings AND the people all around them have such vastly differing worldviews (and political views)...which makes the development of a sense of belonging very difficult. So I am thinking it is not so much what exactly people believe but that everyone is believing differently from one another. (And even family members can hold vastly differing views). Add in to that, that there are so many varying hobbies and interests in life, so that finding someone to talk to with who has the same interests (and who has time to talk) can be difficult.

Feeling a sense of isolation can create a crisis for human beings, as we have evolved within family and community.

Quote from Eoghan Gardiner

How would you as an Epicurean answer this meaning crisis? Do you even accept the terms of things needing "meaning"? I have my own thoughts which I'll add later.

I think I started a thread on meaning not too long ago (will need to see if I can dig it up). And there are other threads and places that meaning is discussed.

"Things needing meaning"?

-- the meaning of life? (I'd say this question comes from "religious salesmen")

-- feeling like what you do is meaningful? (worthwhile, pleasurable, gives good results in the long-term, brings happiness)

-- making meaning for yourself? (having a method for choosing the things that you do)

-- that your life matters? (feeling a sense of connection with others, and that they care about you and you care about them)

I have not studies much about Aristotle, and I found this interesting (and fun) video:

As far as I understand, the difference between Epicurus and Aristotle is that Aristotle ends with moderation and the middle ground, rather than an individual's specific experience of pleasure and pain (and for Epicurus the choice and avoidance will vary depending on circumstances). So Aristotle's goal ends with virtue, rather than pleasure.

Just a "fun-fact" ...according to Wikipedia, this time of year (August/September) would be the time in ancient Greece for the Metageitnius Apollo festival.

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Metageitnia (Ancient Greek: Μεταγείτνια, μετά + γειτονία literally change of neighborhood) was an Ancient Greek festival held in Athens during the month Metageitnion (August/September) in the honor of Metageitnius Apollo.^[1][2] The month of Metageitnion was named after the festival Metageitnia, which celebrated the migration of Theseus from Melite to Diomeia.^[3] The celebration of the festival itself declined over time and was replaced by the Apaturia.^[4] The festival evolved into a celebration of migrations, immigrations, departures, and colonizations among the Ionians - Metageitnius Apollo presided over the metoikia (the abode).

The Metageitnia is also mentioned by Plutarch in the treatise On Exile in Moralia.^[5][6]

Source: Wikipedia

And, in Epicurus' will he requests the rememberence of the day of Polyaenus during the month of Metageitnion.

Thread

Polyaenus - Main Biography

"There was also Polyaenus, son of Athenodorus, of Lampsacus, a modest and friendly man, as Philodemus and his followers say.' [ Diogenes Laertius 24] Polyaenus was the son of Athenodorus. His friendship with Epicurus started after the latter's escape from Mytilene in 307 or 306 BC when he opened a philosophical school at Lampsacus associating himself with other citizens of the town, like Pythocles, Colotes, and Idomeneus. With these fellow citizens he moved to Athens, where they founded a…

Cassius

November 20, 2023 at 3:02 PM