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I just found this, which brings up more ideas (have not fully read it yet, plus I am behind on reading the newest posts above).
And a review of his book "Free Agents: How Evolution Gave Us Free Will"
Here is the section from Letter to Menoeceus (Saint Andre translation) that is relevant to this discussion:
"For he holds that we are responsible for what we achieve, even though some things happen by necessity, some by chance, and some by our own power, because although necessity is not accountable he sees that chance is unstable whereas the things that are within our power have no other master, so that naturally praise and blame are inseparably connected to them. [note] Indeed he sees that it would be better even to cleave to the myths about the gods (since that leaves some hope of prevailing upon them through worship) than to be subject to the destiny of the scientists (since that way lies an inexorable necessity). [note] And such a man holds that Fate is not a god (as most people believe) because a god does nothing disorderly, and he holds that Fate is not an uncertain cause because nothing good or bad with respect to a completely happy life is given to men by chance, although it does provide the beginnings of both great goods and great evils."
Don have you read Sam Harris' book "Free Will" published in 2012?
I wonder if the only thing new in the Sapolsky book is more detailed science. I did not listen to the audio link, and likely will not because after reading Sam Harris' book, I came to my own conclusion regarding this problem.
As soon as we think or speak the words "there is no free will" then it leads to thoughts and words such as either "I have no control over my life" or "I have very little control over my life" and then that leads to further problems and likely a very negative attitude.
So then I must take for my own awareness and my own belief for my self and my body that "I have choices and the power to make choices", but other people are outside of my power - and I cannot hold other human beings to "free will" because they are outside of my personal power to make choices.
But also, we know that some things happen through the power of our choice and some things happen due to chance. Not everything is under our control, but with an optimistic attitude we can go much further with a belief that we have the power to act. And we need to be grounded in reality so as to be clear about the things in the world and in life that we do have the ability to affect and act upon.
There are three ongoing lists created by Cassius. The second one (not Neo-Epicurean but Epicurean) was created as a collaboration between several early members of the forum. And the FAQ page has been developed over time as an outgrowth of the forum. All of this could be used to create an "EpicureanFriends Tenets of Epicurean Philosophy". I am thinking to take this on as project and will post more soon.
Here are the lists that we have right now:
1. Core Aspects of Epicurean Philosophy Emphasized at EpicureanFriends.com
2. General Principles - Not Neo-Epicurean But Epicurean
3. FAQ page
1) We must rely on extant texts for knowing what Epicurus said.
2) The extant texts do not cover all of what Epicurus taught.
3) There is occasionally conflicting evidence between the extant texts.
4) We must be careful when using inductive reasoning to arrive at tenets for which there is limited evidence, because we could end up creating "eclectic" or incorrect tenets. We must be clear on which hypotheses we cannot come to any conclusion, when there is a lack of sufficient evidence.
Based on the above, I think it would be good to create a list of tenets. And this would require accurate translations of extant texts, as well as decisions on which texts to include.
Tonight Vatican Sayings 71 & 72!
Open to Level 03+ members (and Level 01 by pre-approval of the moderating team).
Tonight's Agenda:
VS71. Every desire must be confronted by this question: What will happen to me if the object of my desire is accomplished, and what if it is not?
VS72. There is no advantage to obtaining protection from other men so long as we are alarmed by events above or below the earth, or, in general, by whatever happens in the boundless universe.
Are there any other special topics Cassius ?
Here is a picture of the event announcement, which would indicate that their Symposium was presented in the Greek language (so guessing that the report was an English translation kindly done by Christos).
The following post-event report was sent to Cassius from Christos Yapijakis:
14th PANHELLENIC SYMPOSIUM OF EPICUREAN PHILOSOPHY
17-18 February 2024 - Cultural Center of Pallini, Athens, Greece
Co-Organization: Friends of Epicurean Philosophy
"Garden of Athens", "Garden of Thessalonica"
and Municipality of Pallini Under the Auspices of the Prefecture of Attica
Report on the 14th Panhellenic Symposium of Epicurean Philosophy
Information: http://www.epicuros.gr
A short report
In today's age of ongoing socio-economic crisis, brutal wars, intense religious fanaticism and imminent environmental threats, a top-of-the-world cultural event, the 14th Panhellenic Symposium of Epicurean Philosophy took place on the weekend of 17-18 February 2024 with the participation of about five hundred Greeks inspired by the enlightening and humanistic philosophy of Epicurus. This is a unique philosophical conference, as it is the only one organized worldwide dedicated exclusively to Epicurean philosophy. It is also the largest national philosophical conference and the only one in Greece that has been established since 2011 as an institution from the people rather than from the university philosophers. It is organized annually with free entrance for the public by the Municipality of Pallini and the Friends of Epicurean Philosophy "Garden of Athens" and "Garden of Thessalonica" at the Cultural Center of Gerakas, located within the ancient area of Gargettus, from which the philosopher Epicurus originated from.
This year's holding of the Panhellenic Symposium of Epicurean Philosophy is an anniversary, as it coincides with the 2330 years since the founding of the school of Epicurus, the Garden of Athens, in 306 BCE. The Hellenistic era, in which Epicurus lived, has many features in common with the modern age of globalization. As at that time Hellenic culture had spread in three continents throughout the Ecumene, the theatrical behavior of kings and their courtiers became a component of public life with the aim of impressing the crowds, there was an abundance of subjective opinions and rhetorical chatter, a great deal of commercial activity that created unnecessary desires, many philosophical views including skepticism about everything, many religious and mythological beliefs, as well as intense political and military confrontations. Epicurus faced all the conflicting trends of his time with extraordinary sobriety. He realized that life does not need empty beliefs but tranquility, so an empirical methodology of knowledge with criteria of truth, based on the objective observation of Nature and free thinking, was needed. The enlightener Epicurus generously imparted his way of thinking and knowledge to many, offering each man the opportunity to choose to live a blissful life by freeing his mind from foolish verbiage, supernatural fictions, irrational superstition, empty ideologies and mental imbalance.
For the fourteenth consecutive year, the Greek society will be given the opportunity to come into contact with the scientific humanism of the philosophy of Epicurus, which offers a timeless mental shield against psychological, social and cultural deadlocks, in the simplest yet most appropriate way of approach of a blissful life, with prudence, virtue, friendship and solidarity, even in difficult times. The organization of the Panhellenic Symposium with free admission for the public is our own contribution to the search for the psychophysical health and well-being of every human being.
With a friendly disposition
The Friends of Epicurean Philosophy
Program
Saturday, February 17, 2024
THE TIMELESS MESSAGE OF EPIKOUROS
15.30-16.30 Attendance – Optional Registrations
16.30-17.00 OPENING
Opening Proclamation Christos Aidonis, Mayor of Pallini
Regards Evangelia Pitsikali, Representative of "Garden of Athens"
Nikos Grekousis, Representative of "Garden of Thessalonica"
Representatives of "Gardens" of Greece and Cyprus
International Friends of Epicurean Philosophy
Message from Hiram Crespo (USA),
Message from Michele Pinto (Italy)
True Glory and the Garden of Epicurus Dramatic reading
(Seneca, Letter to Lucilius XXI – Translated by Leonidas Alexandridis)
Theodora Siarkou, Actress, Appointed Advisor for Culture, Historical Promotion and Tourism
Development of the Municipality of Pallini
17.00-17.45 A. 2330 YEARS SINCE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF EPICURUS’ GARDEN
Presidium: Leonidas Alexandridis – Dimitris Liarmakopoulos
The Garden of Epicurus in antiquity
Panagiotis Panagiotopoulos
Contemporary Garden of Thessalonica
Antonis Bilisis
Contemporary Garden of Athens
Christos Yapijakis
17.45-18.10 Break – Poster presentations
18.10-18.30 "Death does not concern us" Theatrical event
(From the work "A Happy Greek" by Christos Yapijakis)
Director: Giorgos Stavrianidis
Actors: Giorgos Stavrianidis, Yiannis Monos
18.30-20.00 B. ETHICS AND LIFESTYLE ADVICE
Chair: Christos Yapijakis – Antonis Bilisis
The human brain and the Epicurean Canon
George Chrousos
Epicurean Ethics today
Dimitris Liarmakopoulos
Epicurean Philosophy and modern Positive Psychology
Anna Pagoropoulou
The relationship between moral code and nature from Epicurus to the
present day
Dimitris Christakis
Lucretius, Advocate of Art, Philosophy and Science
Theodoros Papagelis
20.00-20.30 DISCUSSION
Chair: Christos Yapijakis – Antonis Bilisis
21.00 Banquet in a Tavern
Sunday, February 18, 2024
EPICUREAN PHILOSOPHY FROM ANCIENT TIMES TO THE PRESENT
10.00-10.30 C. SUPPORTING INFLUENCES ON THE ENLIGHTENMENT
Chair: Panagiotis Giavis – Nikos Grekousis
Helvetius – Holbach
Evangelia Pitsikalis
La Mettrie
Leonidas Alexandridis
10.30-11.30 D. EPICUREAN APPROACHES OF THE MODERN ERA
Chair: Panagiotis Panagiotopoulos - Dimitris Liarmakopoulos
The role of team and cooperation in Epicurean philosophy and in
modern times
Stratis Katakos
Epicurean view of human nature and condition
George Gonis
The empty speech of that philosopher, which no human passion cures:
The philosophical origins of modern Cognitive Behavioral Therapy
Konstantinos Marios Zafeiropoulos
Epicurean approach to Education
Antonis Bilisis
The Atoms in the Letter to Herodotus - Correlations with Modern Physics
Anastasios Liolios
11.30-12.00 Break – Poster presentations
12.00-12.15 Musical Pleasure Francesco Bertels
12.15-13.00 E. EPICUREAN LIFESTYLE
Chair: Christos Yapijakis – Antonis Bilisis
The theological elements of Epicurean Philosophy
Ioannis Avaris Kosmogiannis
Friendship as alternative politics according to Epicurus
George Iliopoulos
PA9. Epicurean cure for the fear of death
Konstantina Gavala
14.00-14.30 DISCUSSION
POSTER PRESENTATIONS
EA1. Criticism of idealist misinterpretations of Epicurean philosophy: Examples of an
eclectic and a neoplatonic book
Christos Yapijakis
EA2. Death in Epicurean philosophy
Ioannis Avaris Kosmogiannis
EA3. Comparison of Cynic and Epicurean philosophy
Efthimios Koliokotsis
And also thank you Bryan too!
Thank you Don, and this is especially relevant because we have five more Wednesday nights until we will be finishing up with the Vatican Sayings....and then we will be moving on to study fragments, which I am very much looking forward to because I haven't spent much time on them yet. Cassius is putting together a study list, and it will include various significant fragments from Usener's collection...and it will include some Philodemus fragments.
It appears that we will begin our new Wednesday night study focus on March 27th (if I have calculated correctly). More info will be coming out as that approaches.
And this is exactly why those digitized papyri online are SO valuable. We all have access unimagined by earlier authors/scholars right at our fingertips.
In post 5 above Don you linked to a site but it doesn't have translations.
Then I also wonder if books written in later part of 20th century used old translations or their own translations.
I actually now have proof that Philodemus was influenced by the Stoics:
JSTOR article: Philodemus on Emotions
https://www.jstor.org/stable/43767829
I wasn't able to access the article but the Google entry says this:
Philodemus' concept of 'bites' may have been influenced by earlier Stoic presents many affinities with them. Like the Stoics, he considers 'bites' natur.
I read sometime in the last month regarding the idea that at a certain point there were various groups of Epicurean communities with differing beliefs (it was in a V.Tsouna book, but haven't been able to find it).
Below is a chart of possible "flavors" of Epicureans (but there could be more) and of course it could be that these are blended in various ways - and - what I write here is all conjecture, plus it could depend on one's circumstances what kind of lifestyle is pursued. The following are just a few ideas:
| Emphasis | Goal | Activities |
| 1. Sensation and Lifestyle | A delightful life | - emphasis on engaging in actively enjoyable activities - tending to live a lifestyle which reflects a higher level of wealth - friendship engagement within the context of social activities |
| 2. Therapeutic and Self-improvement | A content life | - emphasis on study of ethics rather than natural science or epistemology - tending to live a very minimalist or simple lifestyle due to lower level of wealth or poor physical health - concerned with increasing one's inner happiness and actively working on applying therapeutic aspects, as a slightly eclectic mix of Epicureanism and Stoicism...for example the consideration of the role of virtue and vice as per Philodemus). - friendship engagement within the context of frank speech for the purpose of individual self-improvement (belief in idealized Virtue). |
| 3. Natural Science and Learning | An intelligent life filled with understanding the nature of things | - emphasis on the observation and understanding of the natural world and study of the canon of truth - application of Epicurean ethics with regard to removing fear of gods and death, as well as a the true nature of justice. - friendship within the context of sharing knowledge and understanding in the process of gaining deeper understanding of the natural world |
I have an unconfirmed idea that back in the original Garden, Epicurus and his Garden were mostly of the flavor of "Natural Science and Learning", and that it was only in later Roman times that that the other two flavors developed. And was the Epicureanism of Philodemus influenced by the ideas of the Stoics?
This brings up a question of are these unreliable sources still out in publication (which ones are they) and what is a trusted source.
Nonetheless, numerous editions of Philodemus’ works, especially early ones, are unreliable. Many were not based on a reading of the papyri themselves, but rather on the disegni, which are frequently wrong, and this led editors to be bolder about changing the texts presented in these copies, filling in gaps, and interpreting the results than they might have been had they read the papyri instead. In many such cases, better reading of the papyrus has shown that the text ran very differently indeed from the conjectures that have commonly served as the basis of reconstructions of the views of Philodemus and others. One common problem has been the mistaking of what turns out to be a citation of an opponent for something Philodemus himself maintains (and vice versa).
I just wrote this in a new list on my personal outline thread:
"Pleasure and pain has natural limits because it is subject to increase and decrease, but we can learn to extend feelings of pleasure through cultivating a feeling of contentment through the memory of past pleasures, as well as gratitude for healthy functioning and the experience of being without pain."
So happiness (as a feeling of mental pleasure) comes and goes, but we can learn to extend it through cultivation of contentment.
Major areas of "existential" guidance suggested by Epicurean philosophy:
1. Put effort into developing prudence and friendship because these two things greatly contribute to leading a happy life
2. God is not involved with humans, so we must do what we can for ourselves rather than pray to God
3. There are no supernatural forces, but instead everything has natural causes
4. The "soul" dies with the body and there is no afterlife, so we do not need to fear what lies beyond death
5. Make this life the best that it can be by aiming for complete God-like bliss
6. Pleasure and pain has natural limits because it is subject to increase and decrease, but we can learn to extend feelings of pleasure through cultivating a feeling of contentment through the memory of past pleasures, as well as gratitude for healthy functioning and the experience of being without pain.
https://www.bsa.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Tsouna_010421_ABSTRACT-HANDOUT.pdf
And this:
When we deal with texts belonging to the Herculaneum papyri collection, we usually move from passages which are better preserved to those that are least well preserved. However, it has seemed best for systematic reasons to begin several chapters at or near the beginning of the extant texts that they discuss, although beginnings are typically more damaged than the columns that follow. When I proceed in this manner, I try to remain aware of the highly conjectural parts and, if possible, I interpret them in the light of better-known passages. Finally, my discussion of extremely fragmentary works—for instance, On Flattery—is informed by my understanding of texts which are in better shape and preferably belong to the same ensemble: for example, several continuous columns of On Arrogance. Even so, I should stress once more the tentative character of such interpretations.
I'm reading the introduction of Voula Tsouna's "The Ethics of Philodemus" (published in 2007)and found this regarding their fragmentary nature:
As mentioned, I have kept down the technical aspects of Philodemus’ texts and have treated them as philosophical writings to the extent that this is possible. However, there are limitations to that effort which are set by the peculiar nature of the evidence and, especially, by the fact that many passages are fragmentary, and their restorations partly conjectural. I have tried to avoid the phenomenon that David Sedley was the first to characterize as ‘bracket blindness’: i.e., the tendency to overlook the brackets surrounding editorial restorations of a word or passage and thus develop interpretations based on slim or even non-existent evidence. But sometimes I have taken the liberty to interpret heavily supplemented passages when the interpretation that I propose finds support in the context.
I have used square brackets in my translations to indicate those places in which a given passage has been heavily restored, and hence its translation and interpretation are largely conjectural. On the other hand, I have not marked with square brackets supplementations where I have a high degree of confidence in their correctness. Overall, I have indicated that not everything in Philodemus is at the same level of certainty, and, moreover, I have demarcated places in which the evidence is particularly precarious. But I have not undertaken to show systematically here the special difficulties and pleasures of working with the texts of the Herculaneum papyri, although I hope that I have conveyed to my readers some sense of that too.
Tonight Vatican Sayings 69 & 70!
Open to Level 03+ members (and Level 01 by pre-approval of the moderating team).
Tonight's Agenda:
VS69. The ungrateful greed of the soul makes the creature everlastingly desire varieties in its lifestyle.
VS70. Let nothing be done in your life which will cause you fear if it becomes known to your neighbor.
