Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Julia

To be honest, I find the background images all a bit dark and gloomy…I can see how they all have a stark, rough beauty, but freezing temperatures, rocks and the raw forces of nature aren't the setting I calm down in and start to philosophise, if you see what I mean? To me, those pictures and colour themes convey more of an adventure/expedition setting than a garden setting.

Thank you for saying that, because I totally agree.

And I could chalk this up to various temperament differences (and as would be reflected in choices for website design) and then this would also reflect how Epicurean "pleasure" is understood and experienced (with an emphasis put on either intellectual for some and physical/bodily for others). I was attempting to explore this over at this thread (hadn't yet posted about temperament) and it seems that here on the forum individuals vary as to how they approach "pleasure" based on how they define it, grasp it, and to what they are attracted.

Ultimately for myself I'd choose that which reflects bliss, joy, fun, and "heaven on earth", and a society of friendship.

And yet, there is philosophy which is intellectual, so perhaps there is more to consider about how to proceed with the integration of the body and the mind. Also, there is that which is open, soft, and receiving, and that which is bold, tough, and aggressive...which can be part of temperament -- and also we must acknowlede the encultured ideas of "feminine" and "masculine".

Quote from Julia

If the major philosophies each were to be represented in a single photograph (and the corresponding colour palette), which choice would best say "Epicurean"?

These two images could be a good choice both for color palette and a background image, because it is somewhat neutral but represents the Epicurean philosophy:

(From Lucretius De Rerum Natura - wikipedia)

And this second one from the Wall of Diogenes of Oinoanda:

Quote from Little Rocker

I do carry bear spray with me everywhere I go, which is actually more effective than a gun (and a lot lighter than any gun that would take out a bear).

Oh wow, and oh good!!...and oh thanks because I totally forgot about bear spray, but I need to remember it if I ever go hiking in the wilds (depends on where and if there are bears) no plans currently but I used to hike a lot more back when I lived in Oregon.

Quote from Little Rocker

That's also why, at least if you ask me this morning, I think Epicurus would not be opposed to going to the moon if that's your particular desire. (Maybe that's in part because an hour ago I watched a black wolf chase a deer up a river in the wilderness and thought, for not the first time this week, 'I could get killed doing this' at the same time as I thought, 'this is one of the most amazing things I've ever seen.')

Perhaps time to look into wilderness gun use for self-defense against wild animals? (or could you have on hand a stun gun as a last resort?)...just thinking about what kind of options to increase safety amongst wolves and bears.

I was wondering what would happen if something went wrong with a launch on a mission heading to the space station, and it accidently sent the rocket out past the proper earth orbit sending them out into the solar system...and whether or not they are supplied with a pill to take in a worst case scenario (lost in space). And what would the astronauts ponder in such a situation...would they think well at least this will hopefully build on the future knowledge for the space program (as a benefit for future humanity, so that their death was not in vain) or perhaps they too could say to themselves "I've had a good run".

Quote from Little Rocker

I tend to think Epicurus thinks we choose our pleasures for ourselves (within certain constraints, of course), and he's more interested in clearing our heads of the impediments to pursuing and enjoying the pleasures that give us that feeling of living life largely as we please. And the most significant impediments to doing that are shame, fear, ignorance, limitless desires, and superstition. But maybe I've now come too close to the sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll interpretation.

And perhaps everything is refered back to it's over-all affect: do whatever you want if it does not cause you undue physical pain and mental distress (and also keeping to that which is just and prudent concerning others).

This thread may have some over-lapping relevant thoughts (have not yet re-read it):

Thread

Kungi's Natural and Necessary Discussion

ADMIN NOTE: This thread was split off after Post 10 of the "Welcome Kungi" Thread here. The following series of posts were originally post 11 in that thread.

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[…]

This is a prime example of confusing pleasures with desires. All pleasures are natural because pleasure/pain is the faculty of feeling. Desires are what need to be discussed in terms of what is natural, necessary, vain &c, not pleasures. I imagine this may sound like nitpicking but I'm increasingly convinced that it's an…

Godfrey

July 24, 2022 at 1:35 PM

Also...thinking...

I wonder if it would be okay or not to create these labels:

-- "pleasure as removal of pain" (eating and drinking to relieve hunger and thirst)

-- "pleasure as variation of sensation" (smelling roses, eating fancy chocolates, etc.)

-- "pleasure as homeostasis" (absense of pain, both in body and mind)

-- "pleasure as pleasant thinking" (learning, memory, gratitude)

Quote from Cassius

But this attitude toward life and and they way you conduct yourself under its influence is *not* in fact the same experience as continuous sex, drugs, and rock and roll. Those who study Epicurus expecting to find that result will get very disappointed and disillusioned. They will fall back into their old habits of looking for magical stimulative fixes that they think might actually allow them to experience those stimulations constantly.

PD10: "If the things that produce the pleasures of profligates could dispel the fears of the mind about the phenomena of the sky, and death, and its pains, and also teach the limits of desires (and of pains), we should never have cause to blame them: for they would be filling themselves full, with pleasures from every source, and never have pain of body or mind, which is the evil of life." (Bailey).

It is natural to enjoy pleasures, however there is something within us which has us coming back for more, over and over again...and...many people have a craving for novelty, which we could label "pleasure as variation".

I sat down to breakfast this morning, eating my humble hard boiled egg, and began reading the special flyer for Trader Joe's:

From the flyer: "Putting the Passion Back Into Breakfast - Is your morning routine feeling a little...uninspired? Does your plain granola leave you longing for more?"

For some reason when we indulge our desire for "pleasure as variation" it does not teach us the limits. Instead, we have to think about it and apply reasoning. The desire for "pleasure as variation" has no limit (is endless). This would be one reason why the pleasures of the profligate are considered a "dead-end" (not good). But as for the desire for pleasure as the removal of pain (eating to remove the feeling of hunger) it does have a limit when we pay attention and sense that our stomach is full. An Epicurean enjoys the flavors of the food while also removing the pain of hunger.

VS42: The same span of time embraces both the beginning and the end of the greatest good. Note 42. This is the Norman DeWitt translation from his article “The Summum Bonum Fallacy” in The Classical Weekly, Vol. 44, No. 5 (Dec. 18, 1950), pp. 69-71. The same item is rendered by Epicurus.net as: “The same time produces both the beginning of the greatest good and the dissolution of the evil.” Bailey: “The greatest blessing is created and enjoyed at the same moment.” (This last paragraph is copied directly from the VS Text section of the forum).

Quote from Godfrey

it's possible for pleasures of the prodigal to teach us some of these things. I presume that many of us have stories of pursuing excessive pleasures in our youth, only to begin to discover the limits of our pains and desires in the process.

This can be true depending on the situation, however in some cases there can be irreparable damage/illness caused to the body by some behaviours -- so we need to heed the wise advice of others or we will suffer the consequences.

Quote from Kalosyni

And from the Wall of Diogenes of Oinoanda:

"...observing that most people suffer from false notions about things and do not listen to the body] when it brings important and just [accusations] against the soul, alleging that it is unwarrantably mauled and maltreated by the soul and dragged to things which are not necessary (in fact, the wants of the body are small and easy to obtain — and the soul too can live well by sharing in their enjoyment — while those of the soul are both great and difficult to obtain and, besides being of no benefit to our nature, actually involve dangers)."

This I find to be interesting because it is pointing to the needs of the body as being primary. And the way that I read this it could be hinting at what is the "unnatural and unnecessary" category -- and that the mind (soul) is what creates all sorts of whims to chase after (such as prestige and power, etc) which could end up with bad consequences.

Quote from Kalosyni

to live as Epicureans we need to get more clear about what our life goal is. Here I mean "goal" in a philosophical sense, not in getting a good career or marriage and family (these could be thought of as a means but not an end). The goal we hold in our mind becomes a kind of "canon" for how we make decisions.

We need an internal personal "measuring stick" with which to determine what to choose and what to reject (avoid), and this will come out of our individual definition of "pleasure". (Edit note: 06/07/24 - I added a few more words to this paragraph to increase clarity).

(Read about Don's recent recommendation to use the word "reject" vs "avoid" here).

This "measuring stick" isn't a absolute rule, but it is a very helpful guide.

We naturally move toward pleasure, but we can make a quick decision to avoid a particular pleasure (and here when I say "pleasure", I mean objects of potential pleasant and pleasurable sensation -- we can choose to avoid it if we either guess, or know from experience or from someone else's advice that it will result in physical pain, physical illness, or death, or mental agitation or mental turmoil.

Our end goal is health of the body, and freedom from mental turmoil of the mind -- because where pain is not, there is a pleasant and pleasurable state of existence, and a blessedness.

I have posted below the text from the slides that I presented at the beginning of the last night's Zoom meeting before we jumped into the discussion. I wanted to add that my original direction that I wanted to take this discussion was that I wanted to present the idea that: to live as Epicureans we need to get more clear about what our life goal is. Here I mean "goal" in a philosophical sense, not in getting a good career or marriage and family (these could be thought of as a means but not an end). The goal we hold in our mind becomes a kind of "canon" for how we make decisions.

I think that it isn't enough to say: "I want to be happy" (what exactly is happiness? and how would you know that you are happy?, and the word is often taken to refer to a feeling that comes and goes...but we've discussed this aspect before, lol). And also I feel strongly that it isn't enough to say "Pleasure is the goal" -- especially because the word "pleasure" doesn't capture the full meaning that Epicurus presented, and the word is too vague.

**Please note: I have added new additional comments with brackets and asterisks.**

Slide 1:

Discussion Topic: The basis and methods for making choices and avoidances.

1. What is our starting point?

There is only this one life:

"We are born once and there can be no second birth. For all eternity we shall no longer be." (excerpt from VS14)

2. What is our goal?

We need to be clear about what our goal is:

"You must reflect on the fundamental goal and everything that is clear, to which opinions are referred; if you do not, all will be full of trouble and confusion." (PD22)

**[If you are not clear about your goal, not only the possibility of being "full of trouble and confusion", but you will not reach your goal, and may feel dissatisfaction or anxiety.]**

Slide 2:

What is our goal? (continued)

Excerpt from the Wall of Diogenes of Oinoanda:

"If, gentlemen, the point at issue between these people and us involved inquiry into «what is the means of happiness?» and they wanted to say «the virtues» (which would actually be true), it would be unnecessary to take any other step than to agree with them about this, without more ado. But since, as I say, the issue is not «what is the means of happiness?» but «what is happiness and what is the ultimate goal of our nature?», I say both now and always, shouting out loudly to all Greeks and non-Greeks, that pleasure is the end of the best mode of life, while the virtues, which are inopportunely messed about by these people (being transferred from the place of the means to that of the end), are in no way an end, but the means to the end."

**[This is often sited as one source for understanding the goal as pleasure. However, as I wrote above, that it isn't clear and specific enough, so it will lead to problems.]**

Slide 3:

What might help us make the best choices and avoidances?

The Letter to Menoeceus gives some guidance on this:

"The right understanding of these facts enables us to refer all choice and avoidance to the health of the body and (the soul’s) freedom from disturbance, since this is the aim of the life of blessedness." (Bailey translation, excerpt).

**[This is stating a very clear goal: "the health of the body and a mind free from mental disturbance". Synonyms for disturbance are agitation, turmoil, uproar]**

And from the Wall of Diogenes of Oinoanda:

"...observing that most people suffer from false notions about things and do not listen to the body] when it brings important and just [accusations] against the soul, alleging that it is unwarrantably mauled and maltreated by the soul and dragged to things which are not necessary (in fact, the wants of the body are small and easy to obtain — and the soul too can live well by sharing in their enjoyment — while those of the soul are both great and difficult to obtain and, besides being of no benefit to our nature, actually involve dangers)."

**[This points to avoiding things that are risky and might end in premature death.]**

Slide 4:

We must understand the nature of our desires, and to what ends they are pointing us.

--Are we wanting something because we believe it is necessary to sustain the life of the body or that it can maintain the health of the body?

--Are we wanting something because we believe is will bring us relief from stress or fear, or bring clarity or joy, so as to bring about or maintain our mental well-being?

--"Pleasure as variation" when pleasure can no longer be increased but only varied, can be seen as natural but unnecessary, and we may decide that we will wait to pursue that until we have made sure that the other two categories (health and mental well-being) are satisfied.

--Also, it is important to evaluate situations so we can avoid creating a painful or unwanted end result.

--Unnatural and unnecessary - "groundless opinion" - these do not bring joy or pleasure, and they also cause distress, because they are difficult to achieve and bring painful consequences.

Slide 5:

"Pleasure as variation" is not the path **[to a healthy body and a mind free from disturbance]** as we see here in this Letter to Menoeceus excerpt:

"When, therefore, we maintain that pleasure is the end, we do not mean the pleasures of profligates and those that consist in sensuality, as is supposed by some who are either ignorant or disagree with us or do not understand, but freedom from pain in the body and from trouble in the mind."

Seen here is the importance of "searching out the motives for all choice and avoidance, by using sober reasoning".

[132]" For it is not continuous drinkings and revelings, nor the satisfaction of lusts, nor the enjoyment of fish and other luxuries of the wealthy table, which produce a pleasant life, but sober reasoning, searching out the motives for all choice and avoidance, and banishing mere opinions, to which are due the greatest disturbance of the spirit."

Slide 6:

**[There is the philosophical goal and basis and then there is the application of it to specific situations -- your choices will flow out of your basis. The quality of one's life will depend upon making wise choices and wise decisions.]**

One could ask these questions when evaluating a given situation:

"What am I wanting in this situation?" -- clearly describing what specific "doable" outcome you want (not an abstraction).

"Why am I wanting it?" -- for what purpose: health of the body? mental well-being? the enjoyment of variation?

From Wikipedia: In psychology, decision making is regarded as the cognitive process resulting in the selection of a belief or a course of action among several possible alternative options. It could be either rational or irrational. The decision-making process is a reasoning process based on assumptions of values, preferences and beliefs of the decision-maker.

Every decision-making process produces a final choice, which may or may not prompt action.

Research about decision-making is also published under the label problem solving, particularly in European psychological research.

(End of Slide Presentation)

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And some further reference material (which was not shown in a slide last night):

Letter to Menoeceus (Bailey translation)

We must consider that of desires some are natural, others vain, and of the natural some are necessary and others merely natural; and of the necessary some are necessary for happiness, others for the repose of the body, and others for very life.

[128] The right understanding of these facts enables us to refer all choice and avoidance to the health of the body and (the soul’s) freedom from disturbance, since this is the aim of the life of blessedness. For it is to obtain this end that we always act, namely, to avoid pain and fear. And when this is once secured for us, all the tempest of the soul is dispersed, since the living creature has not to wander as though in search of something that is missing, and to look for some other thing by which he can fulfill the good of the soul and the good of the body. For it is then that we have need of pleasure, when we feel pain owing to the absence of pleasure; (but when we do not feel pain), we no longer need pleasure.

[129] And for this cause we call pleasure the beginning and end of the blessed life. For we recognize pleasure as the first good innate in us, and from pleasure we begin every act of choice and avoidance, and to pleasure we return again, using the feeling as the standard by which we judge every good.

And since pleasure is the first good and natural to us, for this very reason we do not choose every pleasure, but sometimes we pass over many pleasures, when greater discomfort accrues to us as the result of them: and similarly we think many pains better than pleasures, since a greater pleasure comes to us when we have endured pains for a long time. Every pleasure then because of its natural kinship to us is good, yet not every pleasure is to be chosen: even as every pain also is an evil, yet not all are always of a nature to be avoided.

[130] Yet by a scale of comparison and by the consideration of advantages and disadvantages we must form our judgment on all these matters. For the good on certain occasions we treat as bad, and conversely the bad as good.

This was originally posted in the discussion of the 6/3/24 First Monday Zoom, but was moved to this new thread.

Thanks to those who attended last night's Zoom (a total of 7 attendees). We had a fruitful and enjoyable discussion.

The discussion moved onto the question of whether or not risking one's life for being an astronaut on the Boeing rocket would be a good choice, and whether or not Epicurus would warn against it or support it. We then briefly discussed psychological hedonism.

The issue is: How does one apply an Epicurean analysis to a high-risk activity?

In the meeting Cassius stated that it isn't the longest life but the most pleasant. (Letter to Menoeceus) .

However, I believe that there are several ways to interpret this, and I differ from Cassius because I see this is a kind of remedy for when one develops an illness and is faced with death, that one shouldn't feel that one is missing out on a full life.

To see last night's slides and a slightly different question see this post:

Thread

Health of the Body and Happiness of the Soul -vs- "The Goal is Pleasure"

I have posted below the text from the slides that I presented at the beginning of the last night's Zoom meeting before we jumped into the discussion. I wanted to add that my original direction that I wanted to take this discussion was that I wanted to present the idea that: to live as Epicureans we need to get more clear about what our life goal is. Here I mean "goal" in a philosophical sense, not in getting a good career or marriage and family (these could be thought of as a means but not an…

Kalosyni

June 4, 2024 at 1:34 PM

I used the Canva app, and typed in "laughing Epicurus" - under Magic Media, filmic style, portrait format.

Bryan has made a number of good text-to-image (much better than one's I've made in Canva).

Just for fun I put into an AI image generator: "laughing Epicurus" and this is what I got, and these strike me as being not very photogenic. Others who posted here in this thread above have way much better stuff (especially those which are human made art), but I decided to post these anyway because these bring up the human quality of emotions. Even though we see and think of the stern face of Epicurus in carved busts, he was a human being with emotions.

Plantpierogi Wishing you a Happy Birthday!

Quote from Don

But you, although you are not master of tomorrow, are postponing your happiness. We waste away our lives in delaying, and each of us dies without having enjoyed leisure." {= Usener 204}

Instead of "without having enjoyed leisure" for the last line....perhaps: "without having enjoyed living".

Don ?

Today, both Cassius and I made a few more minor revisions on the Forum Board List:

Forum - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

...and "Epicurean Lifestyle" is now filed under "Ethics" ...and I think it's looking pretty tight and tidy!

Quote from Julia

Gabor Maté does a wonderful job at summing up attachment and authenticity in developmental psychology:

Thanks for sharing the video, very interesting! It seems that when he uses the word "authenticity" he is refering to both internal experience and outer expression of feelings/emotions. Also, I want to mention that when he makes a quick comment that suppressing your authenticity leads to body illness such as cancer, the veracity of that sounds a little questionable.

Quote from Julia

He ends with asking:

“Who would you rather have in your life? Them or yourself?”

The Epicurean answer: “Myself!”

This sounds like an "either/or" phrasing which can bring up further problems (I see in your post 3 above you explained a bit further regarding that). His phrase makes it sound like one's "self" is in a very delicate and precarious position (a very vunerable understanding of the "self"). Yet as an adult if someone is causing mental or physical harm to me, I must take action to remove myself from the situation or relationship (which could include a parent or sibling).

A possible rephrasing of this phrase: "who would you rather have in your life" changed to "I will make wise decisions for maintaining both my present and long-term well-being". (perhaps lots of ways to say the same thing in a broader way). For anyone dealing with "people pleasing", that likely needs help from a professional therapist.

Also, this metaphor came to mind...that when the airplane cabin loses pressure you need to put on your own oxygen mask first before you help anyone else put on theirs. So it is a matter of placing first priority on taking care of yourself.

tariq Wishing you a Happy Birthday!

Quote from Cassius

At the moment I think we should enforce a limit of 15 categories in any single forum list, and if we get up to 15 we combine one or more of the others so that the number never gets higher than 15.

But it's possible that it would be better for the number to be 10 or less.

Don We need your help!!

I take the stand that setting a specific number like that will lead to problems with correctly filing things.

I notice that "Epicurean Places of Interest, History, and Culture" is now filed under "Epicurean Lifestyle and Practical Applications" ...so not very easy to find now.

Perhaps there is a fix for that?

Quote from Cassius

one of the two best starting points for someone who wants to get an overview of the entire philosophy,

I recommend reading the Letter to Menoeceus and the Principal Doctrines as a starting point.

DeWitt is an "intermediate-advanced" level, and is good for the "non-academic philosophy student" (i.e. those who enjoy studying all aspects philosophy as a hobby).