Posts by Kalosyni

Last night's Zoom had a very good discussion, and for anyone who attended I recommend reading this article by Elli (linked in the above post of this thread). And also if anyone wants to post any further thoughts.

Welcome to the forum Shierprism

Quote from Shierprism

I'm especially interested in how modern therapies such as ACT or REBT might usefully be plugged into the practice of a modern day Epicurean.

You may have already seen this thread (I myself haven't studied much about ACT except very briefly).

As for REBT, there is this thread, which maybe could use some updating to include more aspects of Epicurean philosophy, such as not jumping to premature conclusions (we see this in canonics that one waits to see all the possible explanations).

Thanks Patrikios for the above info in previous post.

Some further thoughts...given that there is a clear aspect of the therapeutic benefits from Epicureanism, it is also important to remember that different people need different things, and this can have a basis in temperaments (from a combination of nurture and genetics). So I believe that it is very important to emphasize the movement to pleasure, rather than the movement to tranquility (as some people have no need to become more tranquil)...and because an emphasis on pleasure will include all temperament types:

Here are temperament differences that have been seen in psychology research (source link follows below):

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1. Activity level: This temperament refers to how active a person is. For instance, some individuals feel the need to move constantly. These high-activity individuals tend to move from one physical activity to another. As children, they may have trouble sitting still in class and fidget with their pencils. In contrast, low activity individuals tend to enjoy calmer activities.
2. Biological rhythms: This temperament is associated with the regularity of fulfilling biological needs, such as eating and sleeping. People with regular rhythms tend to stick to routines and have predictable daily patterns. On the other hand, people with irregular rhythms might forget to eat a meal, feel sleepy sometime during the day or not feel sleepy past their bedtime.
3. Sensitivity: Sensitivity refers to the intensity of the perception of certain stimuli. For instance, highly sensitive people may be bothered by many sounds, textures, and bright lights that others don’t even notice.
4. Intensity of reaction: This temperament is associated with how strongly a person reacts to something. High-intensity individuals tend to have powerful reactions to even the slightest situations and create drama. In contrast, low-intensity individuals respond to even a major event as if it isn’t a big deal.
5. Adaptability: Adaptability indicates whether someone can easily adjust to changes in their environment. Highly adaptable individuals can handle unexpected changes with ease. However, slow to adapt individuals may need additional time to feel comfortable with the same change.
6. Approach/withdrawal: Similar to adaptability, this temperament refers to how people tend to approach new situations or changes. People with an approaching style can easily meet new people or try new things. Yet, withdrawing individuals may hang back, observe, and assess the new situation or people before joining in or taking action.
7. Persistence: This trait focuses on how long someone is willing to try and stick to a task. Persistent individuals tend to do whatever they can to reach the finish line. People with low persistence can be overwhelmed by the slightest challenge and give up easily.
8. Distractibility: This trait refers to whether a person tends to be distracted easily. Highly distractible people have difficulties paying attention to a task for long periods. They may also find it challenging to focus on a task when there are distractions in the environment. On the other hand, people with low distractibility can be absorbed in what they are doing, even in the loudest places.
9. Mood: Mood indicates the direction of our feelings. People with positive moods tend to see things from a brighter perspective and appear generally cheerful. In contrast, people with negative moods may have a gloomier attitude.

And the source site has a very good article (including a history about temperaments which first began with Hippocrates).

Temperaments: Definition, Examples, & Types

What are temperaments? Discover the meaning and origins of this concept, and explore its implications for child development and our behaviors.

www.berkeleywellbeing.com

And also something that Onenski said in yesterday's Zoom (paraphrased as I remember it) that we need pleasure when in pain (which includes removal of pain) and we also still need pleasure when no longer in pain. It is just part of human nature.

Happy Twentieth!

Perhaps a new ritual...waking on the morning of the 20th and decorating my Epicurus bust which sits on top of the bookshelf.

Just for fun, a thread for anyone to share thoughts on Halloween through the lens of Epicureanism/Epicurean-worldview...

First off, a fun read on the history of Halloween:

Halloween: Origins, Meaning & Traditions | HISTORY

Halloween originated with the ancient Celtic festival of Samhain and is now a worldwide event. Learn more about Halloween's origins, traditions, interesting…

www.history.com

Halloween appears to be more popular than ever here in the US. And Halloween may, in round-about ways, re-inforce notions of superstition, religion, and beliefs (or hopes) that the soul survives death -- there are the dark/evil essences that accompany any soul surviving death and we need God to save us from those evil forces. And another aspect -- there are the sublimated "Jungian" symbols of evil (ghosts, goblins, witches, etc) -- consciousness rejects the dark aspects of the psyche and personal responsibility for making bad choices by blaming evil forces outside of themselves ("the devil made me do it").

This year I feel like I can more easily ignore the whole cultural phenomenon, since I live rurally and no tricker-treaters will be coming to my door. So come October 31st, I plan on a quiet evening at home. Of course there are memories of past Halloweens in which I passed out candy to kids, and a few in which I dressed up (and one in which I went out to a winery with a friend).

And I suppose everyone's Halloween can be very different depending on one's circumstances.

Please post any thoughts, plans, activities?

Quote from Eikadistes

Quote from Kalosyni

There isn't much on emotions in Epicurean texts.

Definitely check out Philodemus'...

Thanks Eikadistes I forgot about Philodemus. I have not studied much of his writings, because they are so fragmentary in nature. Appreciating the links you've included in your post.

There isn't much on emotions in Epicurean texts.

Here are some further thoughts, and a website about primary and secondary emotions:

Primary emotions: Joy, Trust, Fear, Surprise, Sadness, Disgust, Anger, Anticipation

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The main difference between primary and secondary emotions is that primary emotions are how we react to events and situations, whereas secondary emotions are reactions to how we feel.

For example, feeling shame (secondary) about feeling fear (primary) in a certain situation. The distinction helps in understanding emotional reactions and their underlying causes more deeply.

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You can also ask yourself whether the emotions receded after the initiating event receded. If the emotion was strong at first but has since diminished, it is likely a primary emotion. If the emotion continues long after the event and interferes with your abilities in the present, it is likely secondary.

Primary and Secondary Emotions: What's The Difference?

Primary emotions are how we react to events and situations, whereas secondary emotions are reactions to how we feel. For example, feeling shame (secondary)…

www.simplypsychology.org

There isn't much in Epicurean texts regarding pain. Here are some further thoughts on the subjective perception of pain.

Thinking of how there could be gradations or varying levels of pain, that range from mild discomfort to very painful (in the body)

1) a bearly noticeable feeling of discomfort

2) a slight feeling of pain

3) a moderate feeling pain

4) a strong feeling of pain

5) an excrutiating feeling pain

(or 1 -- 2/3 -- 5 --7/8 --10 on a scale of 1 to 10)

But for mental pain there are emotions and feelings which feel unpleasant, and the worst ones involve both the mind and the body (such as extreme anger, fear, or panic).

What is terrible is easy to endure. (fourth point of the Tetrapharmakos) and also:

PD 4 - Pain does not last continuously in the flesh; instead, the sharpest pain lasts the shortest time, a pain that exceeds bodily pleasure lasts only a few days, and diseases that last a long time involve delights that exceed their pains.

We've talked about this in many other threads, and maybe could use this thread to post links to previous discussions.

He has a few of his own interpretations, ideas, and "self-help" twists thrown in. And he focuses on the Tetrapharmakos.

From the very ending of the article:

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After doing something new, or even something you’ve always done, ask yourself after, “Was this worth it? Did it make me happy?” This seems like such an obvious question — but it often goes unasked, and people become unintentional gluttons for punishment.

Second, ask, “Does this serve me in some other way in the future?” This could mean — building a skill, or stepping outside of your comfort zone.

Ideally, at least one of these two questions should have a yes answer. If not, consider moving on to something else. Conversely, if you answered yes to both, it’s probably time to double down.

Another key point, is to implement what Dr. Arthur C. Brooks calls, “A Happiness Portfolio”, which is rooted in the epicurean philosophy. This means your life includes family, friendship, helpful beliefs, and work that provides meaning to your life and, better yet, society. Consider this a well-diversified portfolio of life principles that can guide you forward.

Remember to think like an Epicurean — and know that hardship isn’t required for every beneficial and meaningful activity in life. Stay mindful and reflective of things you engage in, and people you engage with, and continually audit if they are bringing value in your life. Outside of that, take a load off, and enjoy your day.

This is a fascinating article:

Excerpt of the start of the article:

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Distinct days and nights have helped life flourish on Earth. But many alien worlds capable of supporting life may not have such clear delineations.

Do aliens sleep? You may take sleep for granted, but research suggests many planets that could evolve life don't have a day-night cycle. It's hard to imagine, but there are organisms living in Earth's lightless habitats, deep underground or at the bottom of the sea, that give us an idea what alien life without a circadian rhythm may be like.

There are billions of potentially habitable planets in our galaxy. How do we arrive at this number? The Milky Way has between 100 billion and 400 billion stars.

Alien worlds might not have a night and day. How would that change evolution?

Distinct days and nights have helped life flourish on Earth. But many alien worlds capable of supporting life may not have such clear delineations.

www.bbc.com

Quote from Cassius

The switch has to be made from thinking that Epicurus was preaching tranquility and asceticism as his goal to understanding it as it appears the ancients understood it: that "pleasure" includes every aspect of life that we find valuable, and that given the shortness of life - every aspect that isn't unproductively painful is in fact pleasurable. We even choose pain on a regular basis when we expect it to lead to greater pleasure.

On an individual level we can make choices, based on our sensations and our needs. The entire spectrum from quietude/rest to fully active/fast movement is all conducive to bringing pleasure when a person is clear-minded.

Yet, there are still the needs of the "group" and here I am refering to a given group of Epicurean students and friends -- and I think the ultimate goal would be to hold in-person gatherings. If the group has mostly introverts, then the choices for the group will be different than the choices for a group of extroverts. And if you end up with a mixed group of both introverts and extroverts, then perhaps there will be less group cohesion with differing ideas, wants, and needs.

I would venture say that some introverts are more physiologically sensitive to their pain receptors (both bodily and mentally) and also process sensory input differently -- I think I posted some articles over in the "Practical applications/Lifestyle" section of the forum a while ago on this (will need to find them).

Quote from Cassius

As long as the false focus on "tranquility" and "simplicity" and other aspects that are not ends in themselves remains the standard interpretation, Epicurean philosophy will remain in the shadows.

We need to have a detailed yet quick way show how this false interpretation is incorrect, and use qoutes from Epicurean sources -- likely there already something in the FAQ section of the forum. And we all need to be able to explain it in just a few sentences.

Quote from Eric

I am able and willing to attend : )

Thank you Eric . You'll receive the link by private message the day before the meeting.

Quote from Don

αὔριον εἰς λιτήν σε καλιάδα, φίλτατε Πείσων,

ἐξ ἐνάτης ἕλκει μουσοφιλὴς ἕταρος,

εἰκάδα δειπνίζων ἐνιαύσιον: εἰ δ᾽ ἀπολείψεις

οὔθατα καὶ Βρομίου χιογενῆ πρόποσιν,

ἀλλ᾽ ἑτάρους ὄψει παναληθέας, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπακούσῃ

Φαιήκων γαίης πουλὺ μελιχρότερα:

ἢν δέ ποτε στρέψῃς καὶ ἐς ἡμέας ὄμματα, Πείσων,

ἄξομεν ἐκ λιτῆς εἰκάδα πιοτέρην.

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Don English translation?

This month the 20th falls on a Sunday, and we are holding the Twentieth at a special time:

-- 1pm EDT (USA) --

This time should hopefully help make it easier for members in Europe and other places to attend -- This meeting is open to all forum members. (In November we will go back to our usual meeting time).

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Background: The Twentieth as a commemoration and assembly date was established by the ancient Epicureans in memory of Epicurus and Metrodorus.

From the will of Epicurus in Diogenes Laertius:

"The income of the property left by me to Amynomachus and Timocrates shall be divided by them as far as possible, with the advice of Hermarchus, for the offerings in honor of my father and mother and brothers, and for the customary celebration of my birthday every year on the tenth of Gamelion, and likewise for the assembly of my disciples which takes place on the twentieth of each month, having been established in recollection of myself and Metrodorus. Let them also keep the day of my brothers in Poseideon and the day of Polyaenus in Metageitmon, as I have done myself."

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October 20th Agenda:

• Welcome
• Short reading in commemoration of Epicurus and Metrodorus
• Short biography of this month's notable Epicureans: Titus Lucretius Carus and Rabirius and Catius Insuber
• Open discussion on Epicurean philosophy and popular forum threads, current topics on the forum, the podcast, Epicurean musings and projects, etc.
• Closing comments

*******************

Anyone who has attended the 20th in the past, will automatically be added to the private Zoom link conversation.

For anyone else, please let us know here in this thread or by private conversation, so that we can get the link to you.

Quote from Cleveland Okie

(I ran a search for "Epicurean" to see if there are any such blogs on Substack, and all of the ones I could find with the word "Epicurean" in the title were food blogs!)

That gave me an idea...perhaps a food blog combined with Epicurean philosophy! All the epicurean foodies out there may be ready and needing some philosophy!

Happy Birthday Cyrano

Quote from SillyApe

I think our society is slowly becoming more aligned with Epicureanism, even if most people have never heard about Epicurus.

Quote from SillyApe

the wisdom of how to deal with life in a way that maximizes pleasure and minimizes pain.

Yes, you can certainly see situations in which individuals are implementing good choices and avoidances.

And, yet there are many areas in which some of the "stickier" existential Epicurean philosophical points are not making much headway.

For example, death with dignity: on the one hand it may seem like this is moving forward, but you can read an article here about how few states in the US allow it (and you cannot just fly to another state, but you have to be a resident of that state and go through a very long process). And if you read the news about what happened with the Sarco pod, you will also see how the resistance (likely due to deeply held religious/spiritual beliefs).

Happy Birthday HollyGraves

Patrikios you have been added to the link conversation, so check for that in your private conversations section. Looking forward to meeting you.