Posts by Kalosyni

Here is an article regarding Gassendi:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27744965

Quote from Cassius

Has the idea that everyone pursues pleasure whether they admit it or not resulted in progress toward possible solutions to the problems listed in the bullet points?

The problem with religion is when people insist or force others into it (such as back in history when rulers insisted on forcing an official religion that everyone had to adhere to). So the idea that there is only one "right" way, the idea that God dictates "right and wrong", and the idea that everything in the world exists to please God, and the idea that there are the religious leaders (or priests) who alone know what God wants and how to please God -- these ideas (and behaviors that come out of them) are the problem.

Quote from Don

One may say virtue is their ultimate motivating factor, but why? Keep asking why? And it is going to be that it gives them a sense of satisfaction that they're doing what's right. And what is a sense of satisfaction? It is pleasure. One can dress up their motivation and their rationalizations and their justifications. They move toward the supreme good which is pleasure.

People lie all the time to themselves to get through the day and through their life. People can convince themselves of almost anything!

I am not saying we MUST convince everyone we come in contact with that "Pleasure is the supreme good and why you do what you." We pick our battles. But the more I look at the world and how people act, I can see them trying to comfort themselves, to mask their insecurities, to belittle others to aggrandize their own self-image. They are in pain and are trying to move toward pleasure.

The problem here is that people need to look at the big picture and the longterm consequences of their actions. Both Epicureans (those who seek pleasant living) and those that put virtue (or religion) as the deciding factor --- both sides can develop mistaken ideas and then take actions based on those mistaken ideas which result in bad consequences.

There are two areas of influence that our choices affect:

1) Our own sphere - your own body, your own household, and anything that only affects yourself

2) Our surrounding sphere affecting other people - family and friends, neighbors, community members, and the country in which we live.

The religious people may end up believing that "the end justifies the means" and so they do things such as hurt people physically, or take away or destroy resources or property, or change laws to remove freedoms, the safety, or the security of others --- all in the name of "religion" and because "God has laws" (or that there are "correct" or "virtuous" ways that must be adhered to).

But after a time, when people are hurt or trampled on, eventually they will rise up, are able to resist --- maybe it takes several generations but it is innate in humans to seek justice and to crave freedom and well-being.

This is why we need to understand that justice is a compact that must be agreed upon not to harm or be harmed. Because humanity is caught in an endless loop --- and until we understand this, then it will repeat forever. Endless war, endless suffering of oppression.

Unfortunately religion (and it's leaders) often interfere with the compacts that are made in order to live in peace with others.

Quote from Titus

I would argue that even if they say they pursue the afterlife and are not seeking pleasure they are lying or not recognising their reality. It's as obvious as water is wet and the sunlight at noon is bright to me.

I agree with you, that the stories may misguide them but on the other hand the force of our innate pleasure-pain-mechanism is immensely powerful. No-one can escape this reality.

I must be still affected by my upbringing as a child, which was strict Christian fundamentalist, and they would end the church service by asking if anyone wanted to become "saved" and which was understood as "saved from hell"...so it was an appeal to the desire to remove the pain of uncertainty after death.

As I think about it, the most pleasure oriented religion now would be Neo-paganism (vastly different than Christianity).

We can see some form of ancient paganism in Lucretius, when he appeals to Venus at the start of his proem:

"Mother of Rome, delight of Gods and men,
Dear Venus that beneath the gliding stars
Makest to teem the many-voyaged main
And fruitful lands- for all of living things
Through thee alone are evermore conceived,
Through thee are risen to visit the great sun-
Before thee, Goddess, and thy coming on,
Flee stormy wind and massy cloud away,
For thee the daedal Earth bears scented flowers,
For thee waters of the unvexed deep
Smile, and the hollows of the serene sky
Glow with diffused radiance for thee!"

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Quote from Titus

trust in the world.

Unfortunately for many religious people they are united by their distrust in the world, and their hope for something other than the world ---> seeking to transcend the world rather than inhabit the world, and seeking for a heavenly afterlife.

And prayer is their "Harry Potter magic wand" (which may only work 50 percent of the time, depending on what they pray for). Here is an interesting article on prayer by Psychology Today.

Here is another interesting section from the Pew Research:

23. Religion and views of science

Americans are split over whether religion and science are compatible or in conflict. But more see science as beneficial than as harmful for society. Religious…

www.pewresearch.org

Quote from Titus

(Supernatural) Religion is a mechanism of life that very often benefits the people pursuing it. In a functional way of understanding it can make sense, as it helps people to connect with each other, giving an ethical framework and trust in the world.

Yes it has the ability to create a common goal for uniting a community of people.

Unfortunately is has been used for nefarious purposes over and over again, for those who are in control of the masses and want to maintain power over them.

Also, the "set aside reason" and instead "just have faith and believe" reinforces a lack of rational thinking skills that are needed to have a well-running government and political system ---> let's just go by "what God wants" (which is just an intuitive feeling rather than actually looking at long term results or consequences) and which is a great way for those at the top to do what ever they want.

Here is an excerpt from Lucretius, Book 3, Smith translation:

"The same method of argument teaches us that the mind and spirit have a material nature. For it is an observable fact that they impel the limbs, wrench the body from sleep, transform the countenance, and pilot and steer the whole person; and since we perceive that all these operations imply touch, and touch in its turn implies matter, are we not bound to acknowledge that the mind and spirit consist of material substance?"

Here is the Pew methodology...

Short excerpt:

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A total of 205,100 sampled addresses were mailed survey invitations. Respondents were given a choice to complete the survey online, by mail, or by calling a toll-free number and completing the survey over the phone with an interviewer. Of the 36,908 U.S. adults who completed the survey, 25,250 did so online, 10,733 did so by mail, and 925 did so by phone.

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Is there anyone who has adopted aspects of Epicurean philosophy into personal spiritual practices? If so, then you may want to respond to a request at the end of this article:

https://www.npr.org/2025/02/27/nx-s1-5246286/curious-about-exploring-your-spirituality-ask-yourself-these-4-questions

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Your turn: What does your spiritual practice look like?

How do you practice or think about your spirituality? Is your spirituality tied to religion? Or are you building a spiritual life apart from religious faith?

Email lifekit@npr.org with the subject line "Spirituality" along with your full name, and we may feature your response on NPR.org.

The article itself talks about 4 ways to connect to spirituality:

Question 1: What does "something greater" mean to you? Question 2: Where do your spiritual beliefs come from? Question 3: What activities connect you to your spirituality? Question 4: What else can you do to strengthen your spiritual connection?

********

(Thinking maybe Eikadistes or Bryan ?)

Quote from Novem

Has anyone identified as Epicurean in official surveys when asked by a pollster? Even the Census?

There was probably a time when few atheists would admit it in a survey.

There would need to be a significant cultural movement before Epicureanism would ever come up.

I also wonder how they conduct the Pew Research (will need to look into it) because some states in US are very different than others.

Quote from Cassius

If supernatural religion, and life after death with reward and punishment are true, then the Epicurean worldview makes no sense.

If the Epicurean worldview is true, then supernatural religion and life after death with reward and punishment make no sense.

Pointing this out doesn't mean that we have to go on a crusade and hit people over the head with a crowbar with these issues on first meeting.

In my opinion, due to the awareness and tolerance toward atheism (in most big cities), it seems that it would be important to present Principal Doctrine 1 ... "non-involvement of God with humankind" before anyone comes to a meeting.

Very interesting...and the section on: Religion and views of right and wrong

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A majority of U.S. adults (55%) say that whether something is right or wrong often depends on the situation. Fewer than half say there are clear and absolute standards by which to decide whether something is right or wrong, according to the 2023-24 Religious Landscape Study (RLS).

In response to a separate question, the survey finds that 68% of Americans say it is possible to be moral and have good values without believing in God. Just 30% say it is necessary to believe in God in order to be moral and have good values.

Half of highly religious Americans say that belief in God is necessary to be moral and have good values, and 61% say there are clear and absolute standards for right and wrong.⁷⁸

The survey also asked Americans about various factors they may consider when making moral decisions.

Slightly more than half of Americans (53%) say religious teachings and beliefs are extremely important or very important when making decisions between right and wrong. But the percentage of U.S. adults who say this is considerably lower than the shares who view practical experience and common sense (93%), logic and reason (92%) and scientific information (75%) as extremely or very important for moral decision-making.

The vast majority of U.S. adults at all levels of religiousness say that “practical experience and common sense” and “logic and reason” are extremely or very important for deciding between right and wrong.

Highly religious Americans are less likely than those with low levels of religious engagement to consider scientific information to be an important factor in moral decisions. Nevertheless, a clear majority of the highly religious (67%) view scientific information as important.

Not surprisingly, Americans who are highly religious are much more likely than those with low religious engagement to view religious principles as important for deciding between right and wrong. Overall, 94% of highly religious Americans say religious teachings and beliefs are extremely or very important to how they think about matters of right and wrong.⁷⁹

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Here is a Youtube of the Kalamatianos dance being done in a circle. I am thinking that this would be fun to do at an in-person Twentieth, after a potluck ).

Hi Everyone! For our upcoming First Monday Epicurean Philosophy Discussion, coming up next Monday night...
the discussion topic is "Thomas Jefferson's Epicurean Outline".

Here is some reading material, which is optional, yet may enhance your participation. We will present the material at the meeting as well:

On The Organization Of Thomas Jefferson’s Summary of the Philosophy of Epicurus – NewEpicurean

On that webpage you can find the specific section of the letter that we will be discussing, as well as a link to the full letter.

And for those who may enjoy seeing the actual image of the letter you can find that here:

https://www.loc.gov/resource/mtj1.051_0891_0894/?sp=4

We will be sure to leave time for meet-and-greet as well as answer any questions - so this meeting is especially suitable to for new members.

Please see previous post above for those who are new and wish to attend.

Hope to see you there!

yankee Welcome to the forum!

You might enjoy this introductory video:

And this one is a more recent one with a longer list of key points:

I am not of Greek origin, however I've found some fun YouTube videos on how to dance the Kalamatianós.

Here are two videos for learning the dance:

ifancya Welcome to the forum!

And also, "Congratulations" (just as Don said above) because it's pretty awesome, and I've thought about starting a group myself, but I'm feeling that where I live may make it a bit difficult. (Also, to come up with answers to people's questions right off the cuff, could prove challenging...the forum gives space and time for answering )

Quote from AxA

Some of the objections that came up:

- Pain as a source of meaning vs boring bland state of continuous pleasure (I did not even get into the whole "pleasure as absence of pain" definitional issue, and this came up at the end and was never really addressed)

Perhaps this was a reaction to a phrase such as "living a life of simple pleasures" ? (...would need to know what exactly they were reacting to)... or simply the idea of "continuous pleasure" which comes up in Cicero's Torquatus section as a goal for an Epicurean. I could see the idea of continuous pleasure as being just a kind of idealized goal, or perhaps it would be said of the wise elder or Epicurean teacher).

As for pleasures, all pleasures...both ones which are sensory, vary with intensity, location, and duration, as well as those of good health, good internal feeling, and satisfaction with one's life. The sensory pleasures are always in flux, and pain will come because of the natural state of living.

Also, I think that there are two (or more) flavors of Epicurean philosophy (and Epicureans). 1) the early time when Epicurus was alive (or early Garden, and generations close to the time of Epicurus) and would include the lifestyle of Epicurean philosophy students. 2) later Roman times which were removed from the core studies and included wealthy Romans.

We see in Diogenese Laertius Book 10, that Metrodorus (who was Epicurus' closest student) left for 6 months to journey across the Aegean Sea to visit his family in his home town of Lampsacus. This of course would have likely had some level of risk, but the Epicurean would wisely minimize risk by making the journey at the safest time of year for crossing.

Regarding "pain as a source of meaning" - that possibly could be a remnant left over from Christianity: If God is all powerful then why does he allow suffering to exist in the world? Their answer: because he wants to test you and teach you important lessons. (No wonder the world is so screwed up, because the "perfect love" of God is itself evil. As humans (human animals) we inherently dislike pain and suffering, so then to try to extract some meaning from it seems twisted.(for more on the Trilemma you can check out this)

Quote from AxA

One guy even said afterwards that this was exactly the philosophy he's been looking for.

Are you offering (or planning to offer) anything for those individuals? ....those who may want more resources, such as books to read: "Living for Pleasure" by Emily Austin (for someone who is not wanting a deep dive but it generally explains it well) and "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by DeWitt (for someone who enjoys detailed deep dives). I myself would hesitate to recommend the forum itself, because it is a very time consuming endeavor, so only good for those who have tremendous concentration and time to sift through things (I really need to finish working on some basic introductory materials). Cassius has produced some introductory videos, many which are very detailed and which may be good for some folks to check out. This early one is a good one to start with, as it is not too long, but yet covers 5 important aspects:

Nikos K Welcome to the forum!

Coming up on March 3rd...First Monday Epicurean Philosophy Zoom!

-- Meet-and-greet and Epicurean philosophy discussion with time for questions.

New forum members are welcome!

Agenda:

• Welcome and meet-and-greet
• Topic: "Thomas Jefferson's Epicurean Outline" - short presentation followed by discussion
• Time for any questions

Those who have not previously attended a First Monday, let us know that you are interested by posting in this thread or by sending a private message (to Kalosyni or Cassius)...so that you can be added to the group private message containing the link (sent out on the day before the meeting).

Hope to see you there!

Also the Kalamatianos:

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The Kalamatianós (Modern Greek Συρτός Καλαματιανός Syrtós Kalamatianós, but usually only called Καλαματιανός Kalamatianós) is one of the best-known dances of Greece. It is a popular Greek folk dance throughout Greece, Cyprus and internationally and is often performed at many social gatherings worldwide. As is the case with most Greek folk dances, it is danced in chain with a counterclockwise rotation, the dancers holding hands.

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The roots of the Kalamatianos can be found in antiquity. Homer, in the Iliad, describes three performances made around the spear of Achilles that depict a dance in an open circle. The ancient Spartans had a dance called ὅρμος hórmos, which was a syrto-style dance described in detail by Xenophon where a woman led a male into dance using a handkerchief. Lucian states that the hórmos dance was performed in an open circle and was done by young men and women. The men would dance vigorously while the women danced with modest movements.^[1]

In the 19th century, this dance was called Συρτός ὁ Πελοποννήσιος Syrtós ho Peloponnḗsios. It is believed to have acquired the name kalamatianos from the town of Kalamata in southern Greece; most Greek dances are commonly named after the villages or areas from which they are considered to have originated.^[2]

Kalamatiano songs are many and popular – some of the more traditional kalamatiano songs are Samiotissa (The girl from Samos), Mandili Kalamatiano (Kerchief from Kalamata), Milo Mou Kokkino (My Red Apple), To Papaki (The Duckling), Mou Pariggile To Aidoni (The Nightingale sent me a message), Ola Ta Poulakia (All Birds), Palamakia (Clapping) and more. An especially haunting example of the kalamatianos, Mekapses Yitonissa (Μέκαψες Γειτόνισσα), was recorded for the National Geographic Society's groundbreaking Music of Greece album, released in 1968.

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