Posts by Kalosyni

We also have these two sub-forums:

Justice (Including Security And Social Structures)

Virtue (A Means for Pleasure, Not an End in Itself)

Thank you to everyone who attended last night's Zoom. I found it to be a very interesting discussion last night, and still thinking about some aspects of it (especially the discussion between AxA and TauPhi ).

Without a god which gave moral mandates as absolutes, then we see that moral precepts are a product of humans living together with other humans and desiring to find safety, trust, and peace, rather than creating fear, distrust, anger and perpetual violence. So we as groups of humans living in community can then come up with a set of actions which result in better living conditions, and from these we create laws of justice, and then these laws must also be backed up by an honest judicial system to justly punish those who break the laws. (The punish aspect is also a protective aspect).

For any further discussion on the specific Delphic maxims, there is an earlier thread that we can use:

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Delphic Maxims from an Epicurean Perspective

Thought about this on my morning walk today. The three maxims said to have been inscribed on the temple of the Oracle at Delphi are probably most well known through Socrates emphasis of "know thyself." But there were three inscriptions plus 147 maxims ascribed to the Seven Sages. For a summary, check out the Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphic_maxims?wprov=sfla1

What got me on my walk was thinking about the first maxim, then that led to thinking about the others.

My question…

Don

June 19, 2023 at 12:22 PM

Three more videos for learning Greek dance:

This one would be fun to do on a Twentieth:

...and this one has a turn added in!

And for the dancers who want learn the Zorba dance:

Happy Birthday Jesse !

This is also relevant for tomorrow evening's Zoom discussion, on the Delphic Maxims:

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Later tradition ascribed to each sage a pithy saying of his own, but ancient as well as modern scholars have doubted the legitimacy of such ascriptions.^[12] A compilation of 147 maxims, inscribed at Delphi, was preserved by the fifth century CE scholar Stobaeus as "Sayings of the Seven Sages",^[13] but "the actual authorship of the ... maxims set up on the Delphian temple may be left uncertain. Most likely they were popular proverbs, which tended later to be attributed to particular sages."^[14]

Seven Sages of Greece

And fragment 182 -- Epicurus asks to be sent cheese.

Quote from AxA

just eating bread, olives and water after a long walk for “hunger sauce” lol).”

Regarding "just eating bread,..." --- VS. 63 - Frugality too has a limit, and the man who disregards it is like him who errs through excess.

AxA That's great that you had another meeting with such a good turn out!

Quote from AxA

We ended with: “The optional “homework” is to think of ways of bringing this philosophy to life other than talking. Conversation will always of course have an important place in philosophy, but I’m interested in all the other ways to turn these ideas into real life effects. The suggestions so far have been boxing, interpretive dance, and eating (either feasting on cheese or just eating bread, olives and water after a long walk for “hunger sauce” lol).”

Some thoughts and suggestions...

The philosophy of Epicurus has many conceptual sub-categories dealing with specific aspects:

--knowledge and study of natural physics

--the knowledge of how we can know if something is true

--overcoming the fear of death through understanding the true nature of human beings

--the true nature of pleasure and pain

--prudence and wise choices

--pursuing pleasure and ethical living which leads to well-being (eudiamonia)

You could create specific homework assignments that deal with these and other specific aspects and concepts of Epicurean Philosophy which would require study and contemplation.

Coming up this next Monday on April 7th - First Monday Epicurean Philosophy Zoom Discussion!

This month's topic: "The Delphic Maxims Through the Lens of Epicurean Philosophy"

Here are some reference websites if you are interested in reading about it before the meeting:

Temple of Apollo at Delphi – Ancient Greece: Φώς & Λέξη

List of maxims

Wikipedia entry

Agenda:

- Welcome and round-the-table greetings

- Short presentation on the Delphic Maxims (by Kalosyni)

- Discussion: "The Delphic Maxims Through the Lens of Epicurean Philosophy"

Note on how to attend: If you have not previously attended a First Monday, or have been absent from the forum for a while, let us know if you are interested so we can add you to the meeting link private message which will go out the day before the meeting.

Hope to see you there!

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Edit note: Here is another website with slightly different translations of the maxims.

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Additional edit note: This may be of interest - commentary.

I have been wondering lately about text fragments, and especially Philodemus material, and that it is important to stress the fragmentary nature of that material.

I happened to find this question on r/Classics "Are fragmented Greek texts worth your time?" and found this to be a fun and important hint about how to deal with the fragments

But the question is this: How much of interpretation of fragmentary texts is dependent on the translator's imagination, such that we cannot trust certain parts of Philodemus due to so many missing words and sentences. We need to draw a line when it comes to those parts which are potentially misleading due to the "creativity" of the translator.

In this video, you can see the kalamatianos for a brief segment starting at 2:40 ...(word of caution that the music is a bit somber).

I have some evidence that complicates things, and points to a possiblity that Philodemus held different views than Epicurus did.

I found this on Wikipedia, which seems to indicate that Epicurus held similar views on the Gods to Theodorus.

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Theodorus was attacked for atheism. "He did away with all opinions respecting the Gods," says Laërtius,^[17] but some critics doubt whether he was absolutely an atheist, or simply denied the existence of the deities of popular belief. The charge of atheism is sustained by the popular designation of Atheus, by the authority of Cicero,^[18] Laërtius,^[2] Pseudo-Plutarch,^[19] Sextus Empiricus,^[20] and some Christian writers; while some others (e.g. Clement of Alexandria)^[21] speak of him as only rejecting the popular theology.

Theodorus wrote a book called On the Gods (Περὶ Θεῶν). Laërtius had seen it, and said that it was not to be dismissed,^[17] adding that it was said to have been the source of many of the statements or arguments of Epicurus.

Source

Quote from Eikadistes

rituals (civic festivals such as the City Dionysia and Anthesteria as well as personal cults to deceased family members and close friends)

And also this too, would love to have the texts that refer to this.

Quote from Eikadistes

practices like prayer (heavily encouraged by Epicurus and Philodemos

Eikadistes If you happen to have the specific text that refers to prayer practices, for both Epicurus and for Philodemus, can you post here? ...would love to read those

Quote from Kalosyni

We do not have evidence of any of the above in ancient Epicureans...

Except now thinking, the only evidence that I can think of is the opening of De Rerum Natura which has an invocation to Venus, in which one could consider that ancient Epicureans during the Roman times participated in a kind of prayer, to an existing religion of the ancient time - and a worship of Venus. I found this:

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But the most important cause of the identification was the reception into Rome of the famous cult of Venus Erycina—i.e., of Aphrodite of Eryx (Erice) in Sicily—this cult itself resulting from the identification of an Oriental mother-goddess with the Greek deity. This reception took place during and shortly after the Second Punic War. A temple was dedicated to Venus Erycina on the Capitol in 215 bce and a second outside the Colline gate in 181 bce. The latter developed in a way reminiscent of the temple at Eryx with its harlots, becoming the place of worship of Roman courtesans, hence the title of dies meretricum (“prostitutes’ day”) attached to April 23, the day of its foundation.

The importance of the worship of Venus-Aphrodite was increased by the political ambitions of the gens Iulia, the clan of Julius Caesar and, by adoption, of Augustus. They claimed descent from Iulus, the son of Aeneas; Aeneas was the alleged founder of the temple of Eryx and, in some legends, of the city of Rome also. From the time of Homer onward, he was made the son of Aphrodite, so that his descent gave the Iulii divine origin. Others than the Iulii sought to connect themselves with a deity grown so popular and important, notably Gnaeus Pompeius, the triumvir. He dedicated a temple to Venus as Victrix (“Bringer of Victory”) in 55 bce. Julius Caesar’s own temple (46 bce), however, was dedicated to Venus Genetrix, and as Genetrix (“Begetting Mother”) she was best known until the death of Nero in 68 ce. Despite the extinction of the Julio-Claudian line, she remained popular, even with the emperors; Hadrian completed a temple of Venus at Rome in 135 ce.

Source

I haven't re-read this thread (and there has been a lot discussed here already)...but this seems to be the right place to post...on my mind this morning: "What makes something a religion?" I put that question into Google and the AI came back with this:

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AI Overview

Something becomes a religion when it involves a unified system of beliefs and practices relating to the sacred, often including rituals, moral codes, and a sense of community, as defined by sociologist Émile Durkheim.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

• Beliefs and Practices:

  Religions typically involve a set of beliefs about the nature of reality, the divine, and the afterlife, along with practices like prayer, rituals, and ceremonies.

• Sacred Things:

  Durkheim's definition emphasizes the concept of "sacred things," which are objects, places, or ideas that are set apart and treated with reverence and respect.

• Moral Codes:

  Many religions also include a system of ethics or moral guidelines that dictate how individuals should behave and interact with others.

• Community:

  Religion often fosters a sense of community among believers, who share common beliefs and practices.

• Worship:

  While not always a defining feature, many religions involve the worship of a deity or deities.

• Examples:

  Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Hinduism are all examples of religions that share these characteristics.

Display More

As for my own definition of what I would consider a religion -- I would say that all religions are defined by people who come together in-person to do "worship" together, with multiple rituals and ceremonies that are considered holy/sacred/consecrated in that they are done because they "seek to transcend the earthly realm". Religion is always seeking to connect with something beyond physical matter and to connect with a world existing or transcending beyond death.

We do not have evidence of any of the above in ancient Epicureans, and the extant texts of Epicurus do not provide any guidance for this. Since Epicurean philosophy holds that the soul dies with the body, then there is no after-life. Also, physical things exist because of physical causes - there are no supernatural forces in the world. Given these concepts, I think it would be difficult to consider or turn Epicurean philosophy into a religion.

These are just my current thoughts, processing some ideas.

Happy Birthday sowhataustin !

An interesting article: "Ancient Greek and Roman statues often smelled like roses, a new study says":

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Cecilie Brøns, a senior researcher and curator of the Glyptoteket museum's collection of ancient Greek and Roman art in Copenhagen, Denmark, says ancient texts provide evidence that statues were often scented with perfumes, oils and waxes.

https://www.npr.org/2025/03/25/nx-s1-5332367/ancient-greece-rome-statues-smell-study-research

The following topics will be presented in the "Introduction to Epicurean Philosophy" 7-Week Self-paced Course:

Week 1: Epicurus, the Garden, and the Extant Texts - The biography of Epicurus, the history and location of the school of Epicurus, and an overview of the extant texts.

Week 2: The Nature of Things and How We Can Have Knowledge of Them - A brief overview of Epicurean physics and canonics, as the basis of Epicurean philosophy.

Week 3: The Non-involvement of God(s), No Afterlife, & the Nature of the Soul and Death - An overview of the Epicurean beliefs about the nature of the gods, the soul, and death, as well as philosophical exercises to become accustomed to seeing that the fear of death and dying is unnecessary.

Week 4: Pleasure and Eudaemonia - Pleasure is the starting point of the motivation that nature gave to humans and every animal at birth. Pleasure is the goal to which we aim, but not every pleasure is chosen. By coming to understand the full nature of both pleasure and pain, we can learn to make choices and avoidances which lead to our long-term eudaemonia.

Week 5: The Role of Virtue Which Leads to Pleasure - We choose our actions wisely because of the goal of pleasure, and not because we are holding to abstract ideas of "right and wrong", or duty toward religion or cultural norms. Virtue is chosen according to Epicurean principles, and as a means for the health and happiness of the body and soul. This week will also cover the Epicurean understanding of justice.

Week 6: Free Will and Self-Suffiency - There is no other world more important than this world, and we need to determine what pleasures are worth the pain. We have free will, and yet we must attend to our livelihood and household while continuing to practice the philosophy.

Week 7: Friendship and the Twentieth - this final week will cover friendship as a great good, and the importance of maintaining the Epicurean community. The Letter to Menoeceus says: "So practice these and similar things day and night, by yourself and with a like-minded friend, and you will never be disturbed whether waking or sleeping, and you will live as a god among men: for a man who lives in the midst of immortal goods is unlike a merely mortal being."

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Go to Week 1

Additional material for Section 1.2:

Here is an very good overview of the Principal Doctrines.

The following is copied here from an earlier post created by forum member Don.

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Sept. 23, 2023 - posted by Don

In looking at the PDs for some ideas, I took a clue from Cyril Bailey's summary of the PDs. He categorized them as:

1-4: The tetrapharmakos, the four-fold fundamental principles necessary for a tranquil life

5: The relation of pleasure to virtue

6, 7: Protection from external disturbances

8-10: The selection of pleasures

11-13: The ethical value of physical science

14-21: The wise man’s life in relation to nature, his fellow men, and to true pleasure (can be sub-divided)

22-26: The tests and standards of moral (i.e., truly pleasant) action

27, 28: Friendship

29, 30: The classification of desires

31-38: Justice and injustice

39, 40: The wise man’s life in the Epicurean community

Now there are many things about which I don't agree with Bailey, but this list is helpful as a starting point.

PD01 and PD02 are the ubiquitous correct understanding of the gods and death.

PD05 gives the standard formula about living pleasurably entails living virtuously/ethically, and vice versa.

PD08 to PD10 talks about making the correct choices and rejections, the core of Epicurean day to day (moment to moment) practice. The practice seems to me to be brought up again in PD20 through PD26. Those are sections I need to investigate in my unending quest to re-compose Principle Doctrines as a text. PD29 (necessary, unnecessary desires, etc.) and PD30 are an important "how to do it" text as well.

PD11 to PD13 talk about the necessity of understanding "how things work" when it comes to allaying fears and superstitions about "astronomical phenomena and death and suffering," "myths," and "what is above and below the earth and in general about the infinite unknown." This conveys the importance of studying natural science and to understand how the physical, material universe works.

PD14 and PD15 talks about the fact that unlimited wealth isn't necessary to pursue a pleasurable life. Sufficient wealth is "limited and easy to acquire."

PD17 is a good reminder: "One who acts aright (δίκαιος) is utterly steady and serene (ἀταρακτότατος), whereas one who goes astray is full of trouble and confusion."

PD27 is our friendship one!

The Justice PDs are important from an ethical standpoint in that they say how people should treat each other, especially PD31 "Natural justice is a covenant for mutual benefit, to not harm one another or be harmed."

PD39 and 40 are not straightforward when trying to translate, but are potentially helpful.