In preparation for the upcoming First Monday, I was thinking about how we know that the earth revolves around the sun, and that reasoning is sometimes needed.
I did this search query on Google: "before the space age did determining that the earth revolves around the sun require logic or reasoning beyond observations":
Happy Birthday Singleton ! 
I had to check the Greek:
ἑκουσίως ἀφεῖναι τὴν ψυχὴν ἀκράτου πίνοντα τοῦ οἴνου.
Sure enough, it seems to be just wine unmixed with water. That's not fatal, last time I experimented myself... Just sayin'
I found a Healthline article, with the following excerpt:
Is there a lethal BAC?
Generally, once your blood alcohol concentration (BAC) is 0.40 percent or over, it’s dangerous territory. At this level, there’s a risk of coma or death.
UPDATED announcement:
Hi Everyone, Coming up next Monday on May 5th at 8pm ET, is our First Monday Epicurean Philosophy Discussion - open to all forum members!
Agenda:
- Welcome and round-the-table greetings
- Discussion facilitated by Cassius - Updated discussion topic will be on this forum thread:
Note on how to attend: If you have not previously attended a First Monday, or have been absent from the forum for a while, let us know (here in this thread) if you are interested so we can add you to the meeting link private message which will go out the day before the meeting.
Hope to see you there!
Lots of interesting ideas coming up ( AxA Don Godfrey Cassius and so copied over what was said in that conversation so that we can continue as usual with further discussion (will likely rename the thread at some point).
Here are the posts - copied from that conversation:
Kalosyni wrote:
"...it occured to me that Vatican Saying 28 is relevant to what AxA brought up last night.
"We must not approve either those who are always ready for friendship, or those who hang back, but for friendship’s sake we must run risks." - Bailey translation
and
"Those who grasp after friendship and those who shrink from it are not worthy of approval; on the other hand, it is necessary to risk some pleasure for the pleasures of friendship." - Saint Andre translation
...and also VS 23 - "Every friendship is worth choosing for its own sake, though it takes its origin from the benefits." - Inwood / Gerson translation
***
Axa wrote:
I believe the biggest "gap" in the Epicurean system is the practical details of how to build and maintain our circles of friends. There's enough there in the philosophy to study for the rest of our lives, no hurry, and enjoy it along the way. But there seems to be a little more "urgency" in getting at least our first few good friendships started, and beyond these few words of advice it seems to be a matter of trial and error.
Thank you to all who attended last night, and it occured to me that Vatican Saying 28 is relevant to what AxA brought up last night.
"We must not approve either those who are always ready for friendship, or those who hang back, but for friendship’s sake we must run risks." - Bailey translation
and
"Those who grasp after friendship and those who shrink from it are not worthy of approval; on the other hand, it is necessary to risk some pleasure for the pleasures of friendship." - Saint Andre translation
...and also VS 23 - "Every friendship is worth choosing for its own sake, though it takes its origin from the benefits." - Inwood / Gerson translation
***
Kalosyni wrote:
I believe the biggest "gap" in the Epicurean system is the practical details of how to build and maintain our circles of friends.
They didn't have all the modern distractions that we do, and potentially much more commonality (less diverse interests and lifestyles)...so perhaps friendship was easier back then.
***
Godfrey wrote:
Also they were living in a much smaller area than we are, and there were fewer philosophies to explore in that area. So it would have been much easier to meet with and get to know fellow Epicureans.
***
Don wrote:
I always feel the need in these threads to bring up that Epicurus didn't use the words "friendship/friend." His usual term was φιλιά (philia) which can, of course, be translated into English as "friendship." But both "friendship/friends" and φιλιά/φίλοι have their own semantic baggage they carry with them that often goes unquestioned.
Aristotelian Philia Modern Friendship
W are we to make of a treatise on moral philosophy so much of which appears to be a discussion of friendship? What does friendship have to do with…
Academia.edu - Find Research Papers, Topics, Researchers
This extensive article delves deep into what Aristotle wrote about φιλιά , it's various kinds, and the implications of it. I don't expect anyone to read every word, but I think (skimming through as I did myself) it lays out the ideas that Epicurus would have been familiar with in using his native language.
I found this excerpt near the beginning of the paper interesting enough to continue reading through it:
Quote
The range of relationships Aristotle examines in books 8 and 9 of the Nicomachean Ethics is extraordinary. He considers philia necessary to everyone, rich and poor, young and old, human and animal. Philia unites families and species, and holds political parties, social and religious organizations, and even whole cities together. It joins people who are equal in age or in social, financial, intellectual, or moral standing as well as others whose relationships are hierarchical—parents and children, men and women, rulers and ruled, humans and gods.10 It connects the ignorant to the wise and the beautiful to the ugly. Erotic love is one of its kinds. It arises among travellers, soldiers, and members of a tribe. It governs the relations between host and guest and, perhaps most surprisingly, between buyer and seller. Could this immense variety of relationships correspond to friendship, which, despite its own complexities, we tend to distinguish sharply from the ties that bind family members, lovers, and commercial agents to one another today? And what, if anything, holds these seemingly disparate bonds together?
This hit me that when Epicurus uses φιλιά, he may very well have a much broader concept in mind than when we use "friend."
I found myself considering this about fragment 266:
266. From the perspective of the infinite time that has passed, nothing novel occurs in the universe. οὐδὲν ξένον ἐν τῷ παντv ἀποτελεῖται παρὰ τὸν ἤδη γεγενημένον χρόνον ἄπειρον.
ξένος there is translated as "novel," but that's the word meaning "strange, foreign, unusual;" but is also the basis of ξένια which is the obligation to greet strangers with hospitality. So I would take a more thought-provoking translation of 266 as:
Nothing strange or foreign happens in the universe from the perspective of infinite time.
That change from "novel" to "strange" or "foreign" makes that fragment more intriguing to me. The source of U266 per Attalus' site is:
Pseudo-Plutarch, Miscellanies, Fragment 8 from Eusebius, Preparation for the Gospel, I.8.24B, Greek Doxography, [p. 581, 19 Diels.]: Epicurus asserts that nothing new happens in the universe when compared to the infinite time already passed.
I realize I've strayed away from the discussion of friendship. Mea culpa. My overall point is that we sometimes say that Epicurus insisted on using the basic meaning of words. I feel it's always important to remember that her used Greek words and not English words.
PS. I honestly don't do this to be difficult. I want us to question ANY translation, especially mine.
***
Kalosyni wrote:
Thank you Don 
***
AxA wrote:
...My overall point is that we sometimes say that Epicurus insisted on using the basic meaning of words. I feel it's always important to remember that her used Greek words and not English words.
PS. I honestly don't do this to be difficult. I want us to question ANY translation, especially mine.
Good point. This seems to be always be a hazard when working with translations. The philosophy encourages applying "common sense" and using "basic meanings" of words, but that can lead to projecting back an imaginary "English Epicurus" when we apply all the connotations of English translation words back to the original philosophy. "Edward Curris" lol
***
Don wrote:
Good point. This seems to be always be a hazard when working with translations. The philosophy encourages applying "common sense" and using "basic meanings" of words, but that can lead to projecting back an imaginary "English Epicurus" when we apply all the connotations of English translation words back to the original philosophy. "Edward Curris" lol
I love the last line! Mr. Curris' philosophy.
But your overall point is an excellent one.
Just for the record, I don't think you have to learn Greek to be a student of Mr. Curris (couldn't resist). But it is crucial not to be fixated on one English translation any more than Christians should be focused on the King James version of the Bible.
***
Cassius wrote:
but that can lead to projecting back an imaginary "English Epicurus" when we apply all the connotations of English translation words back to the original philosophy.
I'll throw in my agreement on this as well. It's very easy to see something that we set out to look for. it's much harder to erase prejudices and accept things without an overlay. As Lucretius asked, the gods themselves could not have formed the universe without a pattern. That doesn't mean that knowledge is impossible, but it does mean that if insist on seeing things our way then there's no possibility of being confident of what Epicurus himself was saying.
***
Godfrey wrote:
Thanks Don for posting that article, I found it thought provoking. One thing (among many) that stands out is the idea of friendship as "good will", which perhaps equates to a general attitude of friendliness. I gather that this is something that Epicurus practiced, and what contributed to his being liked even by his rivals. I also find that my days have much pleasure when I move through them with this general attitude.
What immediately comes to mind is VS52: Friendship dances around the world, announcing to each of us that we must awaken to happiness.
***
Don wrote:
We'll put, Godfrey .
FYI... Checking VS52
ἡ φιλία περιχορεύει τὴν οἰκουμένην κηρύττουσα δὴ πᾶσιν ἡμῖν ἐγείρεσθαι ἐπὶ τὸν μακαρισμόν.
Yep, philia is the word used there.
When that one comes up, I always like to point out that περιχορεύει literally means to dance in circles or dance around in a chorus (think chorus as in chorus in a Greek drama).
***
Godfrey wrote:
***
Don wrote:
Thread
(Re-quoted Kalosyni)
Don - can you help out with translation of this one (my eyes go cross-eyed when I look at Greek letters). This translation is from Peter Saint Andre. (Do we already have this someplace else?)
| 52. | Friendship dances around the world, announcing to each of us that we must awaken to happiness. | ἡ φιλία περιχορεύει τὴν οἰκουμένην κηρύττουσα δὴ πᾶσιν ἡμῖν ἐγείρεσθαι ἐπὶ τὸν μακαρισμόν. |
Should the last word be translated as "blessedness"?
Kalosyni
May 6, 2023
(End re-quote)
Kalosyni in this thread pointed out a good aspect of this that eluded me this time.
That last word μακαρισμόν is a form of the word used to describe the blessed, happy existence of the gods.
Consider VS17 that starts "It is not the young man who is most happy... μακαριστὸς (ie, most blessed, most blessedly happy)
The list of vices could be examples of acts that would not be considered wise, honorable, or just in most situations.
What I object to is that how and when a word from "the vice list" is used will change depending on who is using the word.
A Stoic, a Christian, a Buddhist, an Epicurean, etc., - each person will define a "vice" according to what they value (each will define as either a vice or not a vice depending on what they value).
As for an Epicurean, there is no good or evil except pleasure and pain. Pain = harm. We don't like it, and others don't like it if we cause them pain (causing others pain most likely comes with unwanted consequences).
Egads. Just finished sweaty yard work. I won't be able to attend. All the best to everyone!!
We missed you Don
Thank you to everyone who attended. It was a good meeting, and what struck me was how each of us comes from a unique background - having encountered varying ideas in our past (and having read various books) and yet we have all arrived at Epicurean philosophy - and so the gathering of a group brings together a wealth of knowledge, insights, and vantage points with which to approach the understanding of Epicurean philosophy.
The following was contributed elsewhere by forum member Bryan
Lucretius' list is:
1. cupīdinēs
2. timōrēs
3. superbia
4. spurcitia
5. petulantia
6. dēsidia
7. lūxūsDRN 5.44 onward:
But if the mind's not cleansed, what dubious battles
Must we then stalk, and enter against our will!
How sharp are the (1) lusts that tear a man in two
And trouble his life! How many (2) fears will follow!
What (3) insolence, (4) filth, and (5) shamelessness!
How many Disasters they deal!
What (6) sloth and (7) debauchery!
I am seeing this as showing some evidence that later Epicureans were skewing toward elements of Stoicism (unless some Christian monks added it in 
). This list of vices gives abstractions not tied to specific actions or sensations of pain or pleasure, and also implies that one is seeking a kind of perfection by removal of vices.
Thoughts?
I found this article which is a fun read about German customs being brought into modern times, and then thought this might be a creative way to jump start ideas about starting Epicurean philosophy groups or clubs.
https://www.npr.org/2024/12/22/nx-s1-5233033/holidays-loneliness-cure-stammtisch
Happy Birthday Patrikios !
I am going to be using this 6 part model to cope with sugar and carb withdrawl urges, as I've now depleted my highly processed snacks and chocolate stash, and I will start eating more carrots, apples, and vegetables because I want to gain greater health.
And as it states in Letter to Menoeceus:
"And because this is the primary and inborn good, we do not choose every pleasure. Instead, we pass up many pleasures when we will gain more of what we need from doing so. And we consider many pains to be better than pleasures, if we experience a greater pleasure for a long time from having endured those pains. So every pleasure is a good thing because its nature is favorable to us, yet not every pleasure is to be chosen — just as every pain is a bad thing, yet not every pain is always to be shunned. It is proper to make all these decisions through measuring things side by side and looking at both the advantages and disadvantages, for sometimes we treat a good thing as bad and a bad thing as good."
"Fourth, we hold that self-reliance is a great good — not so that we will always have only a few things but so that if we do not have much we will rejoice in the few things we have, firmly persuaded that those who need luxury the least enjoy it the most, and that everything natural is easily obtained whereas everything groundless is hard to get. So simple flavors bring just as much pleasure as a fancy diet if all pain from true need has been removed..."
Vices in this article:
Arrogance, envy, joy at the misfortunes of others, flattery, greed, egocentrism, ingratitude and friendlessness, injustice, irascibility, and superstitious fears.
Link to a PDF of article:
https://ancphil.lsa.umich.edu/-/downloads/osap/21-Tsouna.pdf
Under the category of developing resilience through "beliefs and values" ---> one possible activity for an individual oriented toward the study of the philosophy of Epicurus, would be to create a home altar with either a picture or a bust of Epicurus. Altars can also be decorated with natural elements of water, earth, and fire (flowers in a vase of water, and candles or electric lights)...etc. etc.. And either books or cherished excerpts or Principal Doctrines, etc (hand written on nice paper or printed out by inkjet) can also be placed on an altar. It is up to each individual to decide whether or not this feels like something that they would enjoy doing.
Here are six areas of developing coping resources. It was developed by Mooli Lahad.
In Epicurean philosophy we see how we have within us a natural urge to move away from pain and toward pleasure, and I see this model as six areas which can be developed to build resilience by moving toward that which is pleasant and pleasurable.
Here is a diagram I made:
This shows how important eyebrows are to the physical appearance of intelligence. (I did this digitally with my tablet and stylus pen). I changed the lips, but thinking that I could add back in some thickness. Also the forehead may need a bit more work.
Happy Birthday ifancya !
Happy Birthday Pacatus !
We now have this thread, where members can let us know if they would like to attend:
Coming up this Sunday, April 27th, at 12:30 EDT for forum members who are available, we'll be having a Zoom!
This Zoom meeting will run for about an hour, as an informal gathering to meet those in European time zones or any other new members who would like to attend - it's intended to be a convenient time for both USA and Europe.
Our Agenda will be largely informal so we can go around the table and let each person introduce themselves and their interest in Epicurus. But we'll also talk at least briefly about the example of the early Epicureans - especially Lucretius, Diogenes of Oinoanda, Philodemus, and of course Epicurus himself - who worked to "spread the word" of Epicurean philosophy to others, rather than just following it privately themselves.
Also note that we'll be using video but it's not required - if you'd prefer to use audio only that will be fine.
Nor does it pass unnoticed of my mind that it is a hard task in Latin verses to set clearly in the light the dark discoveries of the Greeks, above all when many things must be treated in new words, because of the poverty of our tongue and the newness of the themes; yet your merit and the pleasure of your sweet friendship, for which I hope, urge me to bear the burden of any toil, and lead me on to watch through the calm nights, searching by what words, yea and in what measures, I may avail to spread before your mind a bright light, whereby you may see to the heart of hidden things.
This is open to all members and any of our other regulars here who would like to attend, whether you're in Europe or not!
If you're interested please let us know here in this thread - we'll be setting up a private conversation with further Zoom details for those who let us know that they would like to attend.
Welcome to the forum
@vlasalv
You might enjoy these Youtube videos:
Bread and Water - Debunking the Idea of Epicurean Asceticism
and
Cassius' Epicurean philosophy overview video:
