Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Rolf

What about the desires that are natural but not strictly necessary for survival and well-being?

I would now say that it is best in our modern times to not have "natural/unnecessary" as a category. And that also means discarding the labels of "luxury" and "extravagant". Our current civilization makes it easy and affordable to attain many "luxuries" and many "extravagances".

You can eat all the ice cream that you want (but just see what happens, lol...because the stomach can't take unlimited ice-cream and you'll get a tummy-ache). If you can easily find and afford to buy ice-cream and it causes you no pain, then it leads to pleasure. But if you are lactose intolerant or diabetic, then ice-cream would be "empty" of pleasure/well-being for you.

Quote from Kalosyni

I like this idea of only: "natural, necessary, and empty".

Actually it should just be:

--- natural and necessary = Is it natural? Does it come to us from nature? (We will need to be clear about what exactly are all the desires that nature gives to us). And... Do we need it to survive? Do we need it for our well-being (and to feel blessed/happy).

-vs-

--- empty = Is it actually unnecessary for both survival and well-being? Is it an opinion not from nature but generated by greed for massive riches, non-stop variations of sensation, massive power/control/status (all of which are empty opinions).

Quote from Don

it takes back or reclaims that "negative connotation" and turns it on its head. That negative connotation of "extravagant" strikes me as potentially Puritanical.

I personally feel that "extravagant" still ends up keeping the Puritanical connotation, and seems to convey that you "should" only indulge very rarely.

Quote from Don

Quote from Rolf

Would you say “natural”, “necessary”, and “empty” are suitable terms to use?

Well, if it was good enough for Epicurus...

PS. Okay, let me add that "Yes, I know Epicurus didn't use “natural”, “necessary”, and “empty” because he spoke Greek." But those translations are about as close to literal as one gets for φυσικαὶ, ἀναγκαῖαι, and κεναί.

I like this idea of only: "natural, necessary, and empty".

We could think about it this way:

• natural = Is it natural? Does it come to us from nature? (We will need to be clear about what exactly are all the desires that nature gives to us).
• necessary = Do we need it to survive? Do we need it for our well-being (and to feel blessed/happy).
• empty = Is it actually unnecessary for both survival and well-being? Is it an opinion not from nature but generated by greed for massive riches, non-stop variations of sensation, massive power/control/status (all of which are empty opinions).

Quote from Rolf

Finally, we have the snow sprinkled atop the mountain representing the natural but unnecessary "extravagant" desires. Once we have everything below, we may take joy in these pleasures and allow them to adorn our life, without feeling like we require them.

I personally would end up choosing a word other than "extravagent" (but not sure exactly what word).

Also, I wouldn't see this as a hierarchy, but instead that they can all occur at the same time.

Welcome to the forum! DerekC

You've now been added to the private group message which contains the link...looking forward to meeting you!

Quote from Bryan

Epikouros fully acknowledged that all pleasures are based in active pleasures, but he identified the pleasure of being satisfied (i.e., "established pleasures") as the natural goal of living things.

Unlike ascetics, we do not deny the body -- and unlike the average man, we do not deny having reached full pleasure when we are satisfied.

"Eating" is pleasurable, but a life dedicated to "eating" is sad and unhealthy -- and so for the rest of the active pleasures. If we reach the point of satisfaction and wonder what else our body needs, we are missing the point. If we form a lifestyle focused on satisfying our physical pleasures, our intellectual abilities will suffer.

But bodily satisfaction is the beginning of the intellectual life -- and once this is achieved, then here it is healthy to settle in, and consume and consume (philosophy and science) as a lifestyle.

Thank you Bryan Well said!

Also, we carry on with our household duties, with joy and laughter [friendship] . --Vatican Saying 41

Quote from Bryan

I think this is typically the case for most people. For me, "clearing the mind" is pleasant before sleep, but when I am awake and ready, then "mind-clearing meditation" feels like intellectual asceticism and it is at this point I will notice the extra sensations you mention.

Thanks Bryan , I also don't like the idea of "clearing the mind" -- as when you are awake there will always be something there. Better to focus on pleasurable sensations such as focusing on the feeling of the breath in the body (as it goes in and out, making it smooth and deep and allowing the speed of the breath to feel good as needed). Or there is the state of mental flow when engaged in concentration (arts, crafts, etc.) when the mind is engaged and focusing fully while also feeling relaxed (just right) as at the same time one is engaged in the craft. (This is just an aside, had to share ).

Hi Everyone!

On the first Monday of each month, is our "meet-and-greet" and Epicurean philosophy discussion - open to all forum members!

How to attend: Please let us know if you are interested in attending by posting here in this thread, in your welcome thread, or messaging Cassius or Kalosyni. You will then be added to our private group message with the link. (Level 01 members must first be approved by the moderator team).

Previous attendees will automatically receive the link via private message (no need to RSVP). If you have been absent from the forum for more than six months, please let us know so we can add you back into the private group message.

We will send out the link and a reminder about the meeting on the day before.

Our monthly agenda:

• Round the table greetings.
• Discussion on an Epicurean philosophy discussion topic, popular forum threads, and the Lucretius Today Podcast - we will go round the table giving everyone an opportunity for participation.
• Time for answering any questions about the forum or Epicurean philosophy.

Looking forward to seeing you there!

Quote from Rolf

When I'm in a "neutral state" - not sick, injured, etc. - and I focus on my body's senses, I pretty much always notice some kind of ache, tenseness, stomach pain, itchiness, or some other uncomfortable feeling that I'm generally able to ignore when I'm not not fixating on it.

This reminds me that it does take work to tune into pleasure (I myself need to put more effort into it).

Have you tried observing the feeling that comes up when you come home from work and then finally sit (flop down) down onto a couch...ahhh what a relief.

Or...on a cold morning jumping into a nice warm shower...ahhh how good the warmth is.

Or...going for a jog and feeling a bit of a runner's high...or a brisk walk feeling the body breathing smoothly and functioning well.

As for sitting still and feeling pleasure, that takes work, and Buddhist meditation is a good way to find it (also it depends on the teacher and type of meditation) -- There isn't any evidence that Epicureans did meditation (but Torquatus explains the meaning of Cryssypus' hand which could be seen as very similar to meditation - I'll look for that thread and edit in the link when i find it).

There is a lot of good stuff here is this thread - I'll need to re-read. (I've struggled with these ideas myself.)

It almost seems that "satisfaction" is the goal...

---> satisfaction which arises with the removal of pain

---> satisfaction which arises from easy pleasures that are not harmful or cause bad consequences

---> satisfaction with the types of pleasures that are available (through-out a given day it is mostly mental pleasures, with a few moments of pleasurable bodily sensations).

Happy Birthday AxA !

Quote from Robert

Habitual attachment to an unnecessary pleasure creates mental turmoil (and sometimes unpleasant bodily sensations as well, aka withdrawal symptoms).

Coffee...since it is easy to get and make at home, and just one-and-a-half cups a day in the morning feels like it creates mental sharpness for me. The caffeine addiction doesn't cause any mental turmoil.

So it is really depends on whether or not there are any bad consequences, and whether or not it is easy to get (and not expensive so that it does not deplete one's funds).

Welcome to the forum Karim !

You may like this video overview presentation by Cassius which covers 11 key concepts (if you haven't already seen it):

Amazing work and the sheer number of pieces is also amazing! Bryan!

Interestingly I notice there are two square rings in one of the photos in which the greyish-white looks like moonstone, and the yellow one looks like amber, which is very nice!

Another idea...

This came to me after seeing Eikadistes recent t-shirt design.

I used Grok to help create a decluttering system:

My prompt:

Create a decluttering method that is based on the following values: 1) household item, 2) beautiful item, 3) status item, 4) entertainment, hobbie or sport. Also include the following categories: use everyday, use once a month, somewhat likely to use sometime this year, highly unlikely to ever use again.

Grok's reply (everything that follows it Grok's reply):

Below is a decluttering method tailored to your specified values and categories. This method, called the Value-Based Decluttering System, helps you evaluate household items based on their purpose and usage frequency to make informed decisions about keeping, donating, or discarding them.

Value-Based Decluttering System

Step 1: Define the Values

Each item in your home will be evaluated based on one of these four values:

1. Household Item: Items essential for daily living (e.g., kitchen tools, bedding, cleaning supplies).
2. Beautiful Item: Items that bring aesthetic joy or enhance your space (e.g., artwork, decorative vases).
3. Status Item: Items that signal prestige, achievement, or social standing (e.g., designer clothing, luxury goods).
4. Entertainment, Hobby, or Sport: Items used for leisure, recreation, or personal passions (e.g., books, sports equipment, crafting supplies).

Step 2: Categorize by Usage Frequency

For each item, determine how often you use it or are likely to use it:

1. Use Everyday: Items you rely on daily or almost daily (e.g., toothbrush, coffee maker).
2. Use Once a Month: Items used regularly but not daily (e.g., vacuum cleaner, specialty cookware).
3. Somewhat Likely to Use Sometime This Year: Items you might use within the next 12 months (e.g., seasonal decorations, camping gear).
4. Highly Unlikely to Ever Use Again: Items you haven’t used in years and don’t foresee using (e.g., outdated electronics, old textbooks).

Step 3: Decluttering Process

1. Gather Items: Start with one area of your home (e.g., a room, closet, or drawer). Pull out all items to evaluate them.
2. Sort by Value: Assign each item to one of the four value categories (Household, Beautiful, Status, Entertainment/Hobby/Sport). If an item fits multiple values, choose the primary one based on why you keep it.
3. Assign Usage Frequency: For each item, determine its usage category (Everyday, Monthly, Yearly, Unlikely).
4. Apply the Decision Matrix: Use the following guidelines to decide whether to keep, store, donate, sell, or discard each item:
   • Household Items:
     • Everyday: Keep in an easily accessible location.
     • Monthly: Store in a convenient but less immediate spot (e.g., a pantry or closet).
     • Yearly: Store in a labeled, less accessible area (e.g., attic, garage).
     • Unlikely: Donate or discard unless it’s irreplaceable (e.g., emergency tools).
   • Beautiful Items:
     • Everyday: Display prominently if it brings daily joy.
     • Monthly: Rotate seasonally or store for occasional display.
     • Yearly: Store carefully for special occasions or reconsider keeping if it’s rarely enjoyed.
     • Unlikely: Donate, sell, or gift to someone who will appreciate it.
   • Status Items:
     • Everyday: Keep only if actively used and aligned with your current lifestyle.
     • Monthly: Store carefully (e.g., designer bags in dust covers) and reassess annually.
     • Yearly: Consider selling or donating if the item no longer reflects your values.
     • Unlikely: Sell or donate; status items lose value if unused.
   • Entertainment, Hobby, or Sport:
     • Everyday: Keep accessible in dedicated hobby spaces.
     • Monthly: Store in an organized, labeled area for easy access.
     • Yearly: Store in a labeled container and set a deadline (e.g., use within 12 months or donate).
     • Unlikely: Donate or sell, especially if the hobby or sport is no longer active.
5. Organize and Act:
   • Keep: Organize kept items by value and frequency, ensuring everyday items are most accessible.
   • Store: Use labeled bins or containers for monthly and yearly items, noting their value category.
   • Donate/Sell: Box up items for donation or list them for sale within a week to avoid procrastination.
   • Discard: Recycle or trash items that are broken or unusable.
6. Review Periodically: Revisit your system every 6–12 months to reassess yearly and unlikely items, ensuring your space reflects your current needs and values.

Step 4: Tips for Success

• Start Small: Begin with one drawer or shelf to build momentum.
• Ask Key Questions: For each item, ask, “Does this align with my current values?” and “When did I last use this?”
• Limit Sentimental Items: For items that don’t fit the four values but hold emotional weight, limit to one small, labeled “memory box.”
• Track Progress: Keep a log of donated or sold items to feel accomplished and motivated.
• Involve Others: If decluttering a shared space, discuss values and usage with household members to align decisions.

Example Application

Item: A designer handbag

• Value: Status Item
• Usage: Somewhat Likely to Use This Year (used for special events)
• Decision: Store carefully in a dust bag and reassess next year. If unused by then, consider selling.

Item: A set of watercolor paints

• Value: Entertainment/Hobby
• Usage: Highly Unlikely to Ever Use Again (haven’t painted in years)
• Decision: Donate to a local art program or school.

Item: A coffee maker

• Value: Household Item
• Usage: Use Everyday
• Decision: Keep on the kitchen counter for easy access.

This method ensures your decluttering decisions align with your values and practical needs, creating a space that’s functional, beautiful, and meaningful. Let me know if you’d like a checklist, worksheet, or further customization!

***********************

*Edit: My own personal definition of "status item" is any jewelry or fancy clothing (I don't own designer items).

Quote from Godfrey

Our key takeaway was to ask the question "does this bring me joy?" of each item being considered.

For some reason that particular decluttering prompt doesn't really work for me (likely multiple reasons why).

I often feel like I have collected too much stuff, and a lot of my time goes into organizing it. Plus when things get messy (meaning that I haven't put everything away properly) then I feel a slight sense of stress because it is yet another thing on my to do list.

I put this question into Google: "Why am I torn between wanting to become a minimalist and aquiring more stuff?" ...and got this result, which was very helpful. (Read these two snapshot images if you are interested).

Here's an idea... the material realm originating in atoms can naturally evolve as humans, to live as blissfully as the gods (who are themselves composed only of a type of material matter) .

Again, reasoning through things, regarding beer...which contains alcohol...and so wouldn't be considered healthy. (see article excerpt below).

But perhaps once a month or less, or according to each person's choice and avoidance, and if you have a strong enough liver (as people age the liver isn't functioning as well.)

I personally have decided that I won't drink alcohol unless it is a very special occasion (such as a wedding).

Plus it's important to be sure to eat some food when drinking alcohol so that the absorption is slowed down.

Quote

As explained in this article, alcohol metabolism also results in the generation of acetaldehyde, a highly reactive and toxic byproduct that may contribute to tissue damage, the formation ofdamaging molecules known as reactive oxygen species (ROS), and a change in the reduction–oxidation (or redox) state of liver cells. Chronic alcohol consumption and alcohol metabolism are strongly linked to several pathological consequences and tissue damage.

Source