REMINDER: SUNDAY WEEKLY ZOOM - February 15, 2026 -12:30 PM EDT - Ancient text study and discussion: De Rerum Natura - Level 03 members and above (and Level 02 by Admin. approval) - read more info on it here.
I still maintain that ἐν ἀθανάτοις ἀγαθοῖς is "among undying goods" means "among undying pleasures" as in good=pleasure.
I am curious if it is the same word for "goods" that Aristotle uses when he talks about instrumental, intrinsic, and external "goods"?
Godfrey wrote this very good post on grief over in another thread:
Epicurus may have written about specific things as considered "eternal goods/pleasures" (besides friendship) but we only have a small portion of what he wrote.
And, I wanted to add that the reason that I brought up Plato and Aristotle here with regard to contemplation and living like the gods, is that this letter as a protreptic, presents a possiblility that Epicurus was intending to reach out and appeal to students from other schools of philosophy.
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Edit note: another reason (idea) that these "framings" were extending throughout various philosophical schools.
Adding a deeper understanding to the closing paragraph: it is more than just poetic words to say "you shall live like a god among men" - philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle also presented their own ideas about "living like the gods" and so Epicurus was using that as a kind of framing to present his system.
Here are some of my notes from last night's Zoom:
The paragraph:
"Meditate therefore on these things and things akin to them night and day by yourself; and with a companion like to yourself, and never shall you be disturbed waking or asleep, but you shall live like a god among men. For a man who lives among immortal blessings is not like unto a mortal being." - Bailey translation
Breaking down the paragraph by some key phrases:
1. "meditate" - contemplate; study and practice
2. "on these things and things akin to them" -- everything in this letter should be contemplated:
3. "with a companion like to yourself" - this phrase more than hints at the highest form of friendship as described by Aristotle, which rather than utility or pleasure, is the kind of friendship based on a mutual appreciation of the virtues that the other party holds dear. It’s the people themselves and the qualities that they represent that provides the incentive for the two parties to be in each other’s lives. For Epicureans, wisdom and prudence are core values, as well as the ability to see and understand that there are natural causes at work in the world, rather than supernatural acts caused by gods. Contemplation, study, and practice must be done together with another person who is earnestly seeking to develop the virtues of wisdom and prudence that Epicurus taught.
4. "never shall you be disturbed waking or asleep" - you will be free from disturbance and confusion and which also is the nature of the gods.
5. "you shall live like a god among men" - for Epicurus this comes about by applying yourself to the contemplation, study, and practice of "these things and things akin to them" (everything in the Letter to Menoeceus) as well as experiencing a complete life which has more pleasures than pains.
6. "immortal blessings" - unending "goods" such as friendship - Vatican Saying 78: "The noble soul is devoted most of all to wisdom and to friendship — one a mortal good, the other immortal."
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I will soon add to this thread some clear references to Plato and Aristotle's ideas on the role of contemplation in philosophy as well as "living like the gods".
( Patrikios asked for a chart comparing Plato, Aristotle, and Epicurus and I will also work on that too).
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I'll be highlighting the last paragraph, but if you haven't recently read through the full Letter to Menoeceus, it can be found here:
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Hi Everyone, coming up this next Monday is our First Monday Epicurean Meet-and-greet & Discussion Via Zoom. The topic of discussion this month: "The closing paragraph of the Letter to Menoeceus".
Agenda:
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The meeting runs about an hour.
Hope to see you there! 
I came across this observation from Numenius of Apamea who wrote the passage some 500 years after Epicurus and I thought it may be interesting topic for us to discuss. Epicurean school in antiquity was uniquely resistant to any change or innovation. When other schools went through distinct periods in their development - Middle Platonism, Neoplatonism, Early Stoa, Middle Stoa, 1st Academy, 2nd Academy, umpteen academy etc. - Epicureanism had never developed. No new ideas were introduced, nothing was really questioned or corrected, there were around 10 scholars in succession that we know of who run the school and yet no-one really deviated or influenced in any significant way the teachings of the school.
Both Cassius and Joshua have given very good posts above to address this critique of the Epicurean school, given by the Platonist Numenius.
It is actually a indication of the strength of the school that it didn't shift in it's basic tenets.
Just because we don't have anyone labeling any different time periods, doesn't mean that there weren't some subtle differences over time.
I would venture to say that there could likely be seen some differences between the "Early Epicureans" and the "Philodemus Epicureans" - a stronger emphasis on physics and canonics in the early time vs. a stronger emphasis on ethics by Philodemus. Perhaps Bryan might have something to say?
About a month ago I experienced the loss of a pet, and I wrote down some notes after a number of days had passed. Here expressed in very abstract terms, and with some additional editing, are some thoughts about the "existential experience of grief".
1) The reality of death - seeing with one's own eyes the physical nature of death. Reflecting on this, one sees that all living beings including oneself will one day die - we are indeed mortal.
2) The tragedy, pain, and suffering of the deceased as they went through the process of dying - and the question: "Could the death have been prevented?".
3) The loss - coming to terms with the expectation that the loved one would always be near, and realizing that there had been an attitude of "possessing/owning". (Specific to this situation: "my baby kitty".)
4) Dealing with the day-to-day experience of not having the loved one in one's life - Adjusting. Remembering the good and happy moments from the past.
5) Re-directing love and attention - taking time to focus on and care for those who are still alive.
Here is a modern psychology take on grief:
Five stages of grief - Wikipedia
...those experiencing sudden grief following an abrupt realization (shock) go through five emotions: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.
Critics of the model have warned against using it too literally.
And which could also be said, that not everyone will experience these stages or in this order.
Here is an article regarding Thomas Jefferson's "social duties":
Cassius Admin Edit: Cicero's "De Officiis" is one of his most famous works. From Wikipedia:
The legacy of De Officiis is profound. Although not a Christian work, in 390 St. Ambrose declared it legitimate for the Church to use (along with everything else Cicero, and the equally popular Roman philosopher Seneca, had written). It became a moral authority during the Middle Ages. Of the Church Fathers, St. Augustine, St. Jerome and even more so St. Thomas Aquinas, are known to have been familiar with it.[12] Illustrating its importance, some 700 handwritten copies remain extant in libraries around the world dating back to before the invention of the printing press. Though this does not surpass the Latin grammarian Priscian's 900 extant handwritten copies, it places De Officiis far above many classical works. Following the invention of the printing press, De Officiis was the third book to be printed—third only to the Gutenberg Bible and Donatus's Ars Minor, which was the first printed book.[a]
, but it has been many years since I read it. I don't see it discussed very frequently in Epicurean commentary because I don't recall that it makes as much specific reference to Epicurus as some of his other works, but no doubt the references are there and just need pulling out.
The Walter Miller translation at Gutenberg is here.
I'll tag this thread with #Morality and we can add to this section some of our general dicsussions about morality and social duties, and eventually go through this text to pull out what we can find about attitudes toward Epicurean social duties - as referenced in this post by Kalosyni.
Separation of church and state in the United States - Wikipedia
Excerpt from the Wikipedia article "Separation of church and state":
The principle is paraphrased from Jefferson's "separation between Church & State". It has been used to express the understanding of the intent and function of this amendment, which allows freedom of religion. It is generally traced to a January 1, 1802, letter by Jefferson, addressed to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut, and published in a Massachusetts newspaper.
Jefferson wrote:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.[1]
This: ..."that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions"...
and..."I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties"
So then the question is what are a person's "social duties"?
Welcome to the forum
@Sam_Qwerty !
...meaninglessness of existence...
You may be interested in checking out this sub-forum, if you haven't yet already seen it:
This is just an aside, but an interesting read:
An excerpt:
His wide learning (he was famous for his numerous and lengthy footnotes) enabled him to look beyond the historical parameters of other historians, and to use abundant unnoticed evidence concerning Romans in their individual and family rites and daily life to advance his views. His books, and the attention and acclaim they received, were influential in opening the now established field of social history.
John Matthews, the John M. Schiff Professor Emeritus of Classics and History, has stated that MacMullen added something “broader” to the usual scholarly writing on the subject by “posing open questions and addressing them with a far greater range of texts than most were accustomed to — inscriptions, papyri, archaeological reports, literary texts from unfashionable periods of history, many of them texts whose relevance was, precisely, not agreed.”
Display Moreαὔριον εἰς λιτήν σε καλιάδα, φίλτατε Πείσων,
ἐξ ἐνάτης ἕλκει μουσοφιλὴς ἕταρος,
εἰκάδα δειπνίζων ἐνιαύσιον: εἰ δ᾽ ἀπολείψεις
οὔθατα καὶ Βρομίου χιογενῆ πρόποσιν,
ἀλλ᾽ ἑτάρους ὄψει παναληθέας, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπακούσῃ
Φαιήκων γαίης πουλὺ μελιχρότερα:
ἢν δέ ποτε στρέψῃς καὶ ἐς ἡμέας ὄμματα, Πείσων,
ἄξομεν ἐκ λιτῆς εἰκάδα πιοτέρην.
Translation?
Hope to see you next time!
Happy Twentieth of July 2025!
Vatican Saying 21: "Nature must be persuaded, not forced. And we will persuade nature by fulfilling the necessary desires, and the natural desires too if they cause no harm, but sharply rejecting the harmful desires".
Charles Happy Birthday!
VS47. "I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and entrenched myself against all thy secret attacks. And I will not give myself up as captive to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for me to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who vainly cling to it, I will leave life crying aloud a glorious triumph-song that I have lived well." (Bailey translation)
I am wondering if it literally says "spitting contempt on life" or what exactly it said?
