Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Rolf

If the work I put into attaining something pleasurable causes an more pain than the resulting pleasure, it’s not something I want to be pursuing anyway.

Now...what happens if it is a tie? ...that it results in equal levels of pleasure and pain. It seems that the default answer is to not do it...but what if you make a conscious choice to do it anyway, because of various reasons (and what would those reasons be?).

Quote from Rolf

I would argue that “what is pleasurable” and “human needs” are one and the same.

Yes!

Quote from Rolf

personally I find it most prudent to focus my efforts first on needs (that is, necessary desires), since their absence tends to result in pain.

Once I have those secured, I am free to pursue unnecessary pleasures (what I assume you mean by “what is hedonicly pleasurable”)

And you could say that hedonic pleasures are sometimes done to remove boredom. And sometimes they are done as a kind of medicine (or distraction, or a coping mechanism) when certain needs go unmet - of course the Epicurist would make sure to do this in such a manner as to not create worse pains).

I am thinking about another way to ask the question: How much work should be put into pursuing what is hedonicly pleasurable and how much work should go into pursuing human needs. Is there a method of evaluating what level of work (effort) is too much or too little -- your trying too hard or you are not trying hard enough -- and this may be an aspect of temperament in that some people may tend to "try too hard" and others may tend to "not try hard enough".

I've seen something on Reddit, written about "chasing after pleasure" as being a bad thing, and that Epicureans should just "relax" (code word for do less)...and my concern is that human needs will then go unmet...which will then result in a lesser quality of life (and less joy).

Quote from Rolf

I was interested in Taoism for some time before my discovery of Epicurean philosophy, and this reminds me of a common Taoist adage about “getting out of one’s own way”.

I think that with Epicurean philosophy it uses reasoning - mental thinking and evaluation - based on fundamental ideas which remove "ego" aspects (pursuit of riches, fame, or power, or status (of somehow being better than everyone else)...and instead thinking what does the human-animal need. So there are parallels but also differences (when comparing) such that we are going to maximalize indulence of "what an animal needs" (and I have ideas about this that I haven't yet talked much about, but perhaps I should soon, since the question of this thread may actually be a "compensation" for a lack of human need fulfilment (but will get into that in another thread).

Quote from Rolf

Something else that springs to mind is that ultimately this question comes down to hedonic calculus. If the “effort” you’re putting into the pursuit of pleasure is leading to more pain than pleasure, then one “should not” put that amount or type of effort into that particular venture.

I think that if you do a lot of "calculating" then there will be times that for a particular activity, the amount of pleasure produced breaks even with the amount of effort required...therefore you could reason with yourself that you might as well not do the activity.

Here is a practical example: There is a specific type of class that is being offered (it could be a dance class, a yoga class, or an art class, etc.) and you feel fairly certain that you will enjoy the experience and potentially meet new friends. However, the city that it is in will take an hour drive time (each way, so a total of 2 hours drive time). So even though the drive won't be particularly painful (just driving and maybe listening to an audiobook) ...the effort requires too much time. There actually isn't anything physically painful about the idea "it takes too much time"...it is just a mental judgment that it doesn't seem worth the effort.

Quote from Don

By struggling in an effortful way, one is adding an unnecessary level of pain. Sure, we choose pain sometimes for greater pleasure. My go to example is always exercise

Is effort always painful? (I don't think so myself).

Vatican Saying 41 hints at putting effort into things:

"We must laugh and philosophize at the same time, and do our household duties, and employ our other faculties, and never cease proclaiming the sayings of the true philosophy."

Question to add to the FAQ section: What amount of effort should be put into pursuing pleasure? ...Is there such a thing as not enough effort or too much effort when pursuing pleasure? Also, you could ask the flip side of the question, What amount of effort should be put into the removal of pain? Is there such a thing as not enough effort or too much effort when working to remove pain?

I have a question to suggest for the FAQ section:

How much effort should I be putting into pursuing pleasure? ...Is there such a thing as not enough effort or too much effort when pursuing pleasure?

Hi Everyone, You may notice that there are a few changes in the forum structure...and also the drop-down menus.

Most notable is that "General Discussion" has been renamed to "Uncategorized Discussion (General)". This means that only posts on topics which do not already have existing categories should go into the "Uncategorized Discussion".

Here is the new description:

This discussion sub-forum covers anything which doesn't fit within our existing Epicurean philosophy sub-forum categories. Please double-check if your post topic falls into an existing category. For help finding the correct category visit our short-cuts page. Or you can click here to return to the full forum list. Newer members: if you are unsure of where to post, you can ask where to post in your welcome thread (or send a private message to a moderator or admin). (P.S. We are currently working to file earlier general posts into their correct locations).

I'll be doing a bit more work soon on the "short-cuts" page, and that will help everyone with locating where exactly to post.

fyi - there is a lot of old but good stuff that had previously been posted under "General Discussion" (now labeled "Uncategorized Discussion") that will need to be moved over to the correct categories, and it will take a while to do so. And oddly enough, over the last several years we have basically ended up with two forums: the "general discussion" forum and the categorized sub-forums). There are many threads which duplicate the same discussion topics and questions (2 or more times!) that were posted in "general discussion" even though there are existing categories of sub-forums.

Thank you everyone for your understanding and help in posting content in relevant locations.

And if you have any questions, please ask! Thanks!

Venus is complex with many varying aspects/forms, and she comes about due to the earlier Aphrodite (also many aspects/forms).

Wikipedia article: Venus (mythology)

Here is a journal article: "Venus and Lucretius"

https://www.jstor.org/stable/641366

For anyone who likes "arm-chair travel"... it looks like travel to Samos (the birthplace of Epicurus) is gaining in popularity...lots of videos on YouTube:

On this second video, it includes some history aspects:

On this last video "Secret Greece" ...the first half covers food, hotel, and beach experience (didn't watch the last half):

Here is a song to help celebrate today...and since Epicurus was from the island of Samos!

(I do not know what island was filmed for this video).

Here is a translation from Greek into English from the internet:

We who grew up with the island the color

And the water of the sea rained our mouths

We feast differently we dance island

A lute and violin until the east comes out (bis)

Our dreams became shells in the Cyclades

Maria Nomikou - Στίχοι Εμείς γλεντάμε αλλιώτικα...χορεύουμε νησιώτικα

Maria Nomikou Στίχοι Εμείς γλεντάμε αλλιώτικα...χορεύουμε νησιώτικα: Εμείς που

lyricstranslate.com

Happy Twentieth Everyone! And Happy Summer Solstice!

As I was looking to find something about the seasons in De Rerum Natura, I noticed the differences in various translations (you can take a look a three three translations side-by-side here).

If you want to suggest any other quotes on the seasons from Lucretius that you like, please do!

This is the translation at Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

Quote

Tomorrow, dearest Piso, your cultured companion drags you
To his humble shack at three o’clock
To feed you your annual dinner on the Twentieth. If you’ll miss
Sow’s udders and Bromius’ Chian wine,
Still you’ll see your faithful companions and hear
Things far more sweet than the Phaeacians’ land.
And if you ever turn your gaze on us too, Piso,
We’ll have a richer Twentieth, instead of a humble one.

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But did they take poetic license with the phrase "your cultured companion"? (I prefer Paton's translation, as in post one above).

When he says "hear things far more sweet than the Phaeacians' land... possibly he was refering to Lucretius De Rerum Natura ...(especially the opening which speaks of Venus and Nature)...just a thought.

I am thinking now about the possibility that there was a custom for Epicureans to speak about pleasure and pleasurable things at their symposium/feasts...just another idea to ponder.

Link to the ancient Greek text:

Greek Anthology, Volume IV, book 11, chapter 44

fyi...Just for fun, we have this sub-forum:

Versions of the Text of Lucretius

...and this thread:

Thread

Favorite Translation of Lucretius

Just a little poll while I was doing some work...

Eikadistes

January 24, 2023 at 2:38 PM

Perhaps it ought to be phrased: "The Spirituality of Nature" rather than "religion" (because I am taking notice of what Lucretius wrote at the start of Book 4 in Derum Natura regarding "religion").

One would guess that back in time people where much more in tune with "Nature" -- much more sensitive toward it. Although most people thought that the causes of things came from gods/goddesses.

For modern times, my idea is that the "spirituality of Nature" would be a kind of "return to sensing Nature" and as a way of increasing good health and pleasure.

We understand the causes of things through science, but modern civilization has brought us a feeling of being distant from Nature -- even though we are still in the midst of it!

Quote from TauPhi

Ah, nothing beats AI generated slop.

'Does generation Z worry about Friday the 13th?.

AI answer: 'Some people may be potentially superstitious and some may not be potentially superstitious. Some sources suggest that some people in the past were more superstitious but some sources indicate that the other sources do not definitively support the claim that initial sources sourced in potentially superstitious people suggest that sometimes Friday is the 13th which is a potential worry to some people. Or not.'

Below are some points from the second half of the AI response (which was in my original post above) ...which I have shortened/reworded:

--Individuals can pick up superstitious beliefs by being taught directly by parents, or by observation or imitation of family or friends.

--When an individual feels a lack of control or they have difficulty facing uncertainty, they may be more susceptible to forming superstitious beliefs, especially if they believe that events can be influenced by bad luck.

--Individuals often fall into confirmation bias in which they look for evidence that supports their current beliefs, even if those beliefs are irrational -- such that they will focus on the negative events that happen on Friday the 13th, as proof that that it is unlucky.

And PD01 seems to force one to use inductive reasoning, don't you think?

A recent post regarding the Tetrapharmakos in the thread "Tsouna's On Choices and Avoidances", opened up a question for me regarding PD01...and which it seems we can have 3 positions:

1) it is speaking about the nature of gods

2) it is speaking about the conception of the idea of gods

3) it is speaking about the nature of a wise man

And since the translations do not use the word "god" or "gods"...I am wondering where everyone stands on this now?

Quote from Kalosyni

I found this interesting podcast with transcript:

"Speaking of Psychology: The psychology of superstition, with Stuart Vyse, PhD"

https://www.apa.org/news/podcasts/…gy/superstition

Here's some non-AI info ...

https://www.apa.org/news/podcasts/speaking-of-psychology/superstition

I just found this result on Google:

Plus I found this interesting podcast with transcript:

"Speaking of Psychology: The psychology of superstition, with Stuart Vyse, PhD"

https://www.apa.org/news/podcasts/speaking-of-psychology/superstition