Posts by Kalosyni

I feel like I am not able to follow all of the various ins and outs of thought presented by Cassius regarding Epicurus vs. SPA (Socrates Plato Aristotle), as I don't have enough knowledge of those schools. Also, my knowledge of Epicurus' philosophy is sorely lacking. And I might be not directly responding to the above points, but will simply respond anyway, on the basis of my intuitive personal ideas.

A. The ultimate goal that I would like to choose for myself is to live joyously and sweetly.

B. The guide to my living joyously and sweetly is to use pleasure which is governed by wisdom and reason.

So for me it is to pursue pleasure when governed by reason and wisdom. And to be kind to myself when I make errors in judgement (which invariably will happen). Or, if at times I act out of impulse (without considering the consequences of my actions) then I shouldn't be surprised by the chance of experiencing unexpected consequences which may lead to less joy and less sweetness.

Thank you for all your replies. I will need a bit of time re-read and digest...will respond by the end of the day.

Living a pleasant and sweet life is a highest good and a highest aim.

Emphasis on action as a verb, rather than on an object or noun.

Living pleasantly and sweetly = living joyously, living wisely, living beautifully, living rightly.

Maybe it could be summed up with - living with a smile on one's face?

Multiple components comprise the Epicurean life. There is more to laud in the "sweetest life" than just pleasure. To say that there is only one highest good, is like saying you can only have one favorite food.

Excerpts from Letter to Menoikos, translation by Peter Saint-Andre:

"Let no one put off the love and practice of wisdom [note] when young, nor grow tired of it when old."

"Practical wisdom is the foundation of all these things and is the greatest good. Thus practical wisdom is more valuable than philosophy and is the source of every other excellence [note], teaching us that it is not possible to live joyously without also living wisely and beautifully and rightly, nor to live wisely and beautifully and rightly without living joyously. [note] For the excellences grow up together with the pleasant life, and the pleasant life is inseparable from them."

And from the Vatican Sayings (translation by Peter Saint-Andre):

"The noble soul is devoted most of all to wisdom and to friendship — one a mortal good, the other immortal. [note]"

Are you an introvert or an extrovert?

Brain differences can influence what feels enjoyable and pleasurable. The introvert is going to seek out and enjoy ataraxia much more than an extrovert. Understanding brain differences can create respect for both ways of navigating the world and experiencing pleasure. Here on the forum this can create space for understanding differing interpretations of Epicurean pleasure.

This article presents the differences in introvert and extrovert brains.

Introverts' and Extroverts' Brains Really Are Different, According to Science

Here's a quick-and-dirty guide to some key differences between introverts' and extroverts' brains, according to science — and it explains a lot.

introvertdear.com

The following is an excerpt:

"Why do extroverts like action, but introverts like calm?

"It may have to do with two powerful chemicals found in the brain — dopamine and acetylcholine, “jolt juices” that hugely impact our behavior."

"Dopamine gives us immediate, intense zaps of happiness when we act quickly, take risks, and seek novelty. Acetylcholine, on the other hand, also rewards us, but its effects are more subtle — it makes us relaxed, alert, and content."

"One explanation for introversion vs. extroversion, according to Dr. Marti Olsen Laney in her 2002 book, The Introvert Advantage, is extroverts are less sensitive to dopamine, so they need more of it to feel happy. The more they talk, move, and socialize, the more they feel dopamine’s pleasant effects."

"But when it comes to us “quiet ones,” too much dopamine can overstimulate us, writes Laney, like a kid with a tummy ache hopped up on too much sugar. On the other hand, when we read, concentrate, or use our minds in some way, we feel good because our brains release acetylcholine — a happiness bump so gentle that extroverts hardly register it."

Just for the record, realize that I shouldn't put down "self-help" books, as I've found great benefits in the past, seen many a time when just the right self-help book came along...it's just really a matter of personal reference.

I found Catherine Wilson's book "How to be an Epicurean: the Art of Ancient Art of Living Well" at my library. Skimmed through rather quickly, and returned it also rather quickly. It had a "fluffy" feeling to it...I think it's better to read the Principle Doctrines and contemplate their deeper meanings and how they can be applied to one's own life. Yet, if you can easily find it a library, could be good if you like things that have a "self-help" quality. (Been there, done that, too many times already).

Quote from Cassius

The standard suggestions you will read about "simple loving" and the like in other books

?

...please explain, or if you can reference to a link in the forum explaining this, thanks

Let me restate my idea:

If one assumes that short-term pleasures provide the same benefits as long-term pleasures, then one will, at times, make choices that result in less pleasure and more pain.

I vividly imagine Epicurus would welcome Cyreniacs into his Garden, because they could test out his wisdom and find personal benefit.

And yes, we each must do our own choosing, and we will each experience the results of our choices. Sometimes one makes choice and then sees that something different could be done the next time. So there is testing, observing, and learning.

I sense that my readings and interpretations might be moving me in a direction that do not fully resonate for some. I would wonder why, but may never have an answer.

I begin to feel...

...as a frog kissed by a princess, but instead of an Epicurean, I've turned into a skeptic.

After reading the above posts, some ideas come up:

It seems that one could do a hedonic calculus when making choices, but if the underlying assumption is that short-term physical pleasures are equally as important as long-term mental pleasures, then the long-term results will be a mixed bag (pleasure mixed with pain or pleasure resulting in pain), and/or one will find oneself on a never-ending hedonic treadmill.

So an Epicurean philosophy of life would be a life of guaranteed continuous pleasures ---- of a medium intensity (a nice well built fire to warm oneself together with one's friends) vs. a high intensity (too much fuel on the fire burns out too quickly). And this would be the difference between the Epicureans and the Cyrenaics.

PD 27 - Of all things that wisdom provides for living one’s entire life in happiness, the greatest by far is the possession of friendship.

There are many interesting points made here by Cassius, Godfrey, Don.

It seems to me that you can look at pleasure and pain as either additive or subtractive. So the subtractive way to look at pleasure, is that pain has been removed, and in it's place we now have pleasure. And since Epicurus says there is no neutral state of feelings, then that would mean that (for example) the pleasure of fun and entertainments has removed the pain of boredom.

It is more appealing to me to see pleasure as additive, and that is probably a heuristic. However, if one is to maximize enjoyment, then it is good to remove mental pains of anxiety and stress.

I'll need to ponder the jelly bean jar analogy a bit more to see if it works for me, or come up with something that can also accommodate the two types of pleasures - pleasures that last only a short time and pleasures that last much longer.

Thank you Cassius and @Godfrey...It's going to take me some time to "unpack" and digest your replies.

I'd be interested in any getting any feedback regarding this list:

An Epicurean Understanding of Pleasure

1) Do not pursue reckless or extravagant luxuries, but enjoy the occasional luxury should it happen to come your way.

2) Take action to eliminate bodily and mental pains, and enjoy the pleasure, tranquility, and peace of mind that comes as you eliminate hunger, thirst, fear, anxiety, stress, and boredom.

3) Study philosophy which leads to tranquility and peace of mind.

4) Cultivate and enjoy friendships with like-minded people.

5) Savor the sweetness of life as you pursue the fulfillment of life's natural desires, while neither causing harm to yourself or nor others.

6) Realize that at a certain point enjoyment comes to it's totality, and any additional pleasure is like "icing on a cake".

And even better to satisfy the belly and the intellect at the same time!

Oops, some how it posted twice...

...double the pleasure

To summarize the pleasures from the above posts, for the sheer enjoyment.

And for sure there are many more than these...

---nature/outdoors/cosmos - sensations of warmth on the skin from the sun and taking in pleasing sights and sounds with the eyes and ears

---joy of the intellect and thinking - books, reading, writing, poetry

---movement of the body - walking, yoga, dance

---stillness of the body - meditation

---conversation

And I would create a separate category for the following (due to the possibility of mixed results and the need for moderation)

---romance, wine, food, sex

Then also there is the pleasure of recollection...

In a separate thread Cassius shared a passage that I find to be very helpful from Torquatus "On Ends":

"...let him never suffer the pleasures of the past to fade away, but constantly renew their enjoyment in recollection, and his lot will be one which will not admit of further improvement."

To summarize the pleasures from the above posts, for the sheer enjoyment.

And for sure there are many more than these.

---nature/outdoors/cosmos - sensations of warmth on the skin from the sun and taking in pleasing sights and sounds with the eyes and ears

---joy of the intellect and thinking - books, reading, writing, poetry

---movement of the body - walking, yoga, dance

---stillness of the body - meditation

---conversation

And I would create a separate category for the following (due to the possibility of mixed results and the need for moderation)

---romance, wine, food, sex

Then also there is the pleasure of recollection...

In a separate thread Cassius shared a passage that I find to be very helpful from Torquatus "On Ends":

"...let him never suffer the pleasures of the past to fade away, but constantly renew their enjoyment in recollection, and his lot will be one which will not admit of further improvement."

Thanks Cassius, Don, Joshua, Godfrey

Reading all your inputs...lots of pleasures!

I realize I am just going through a phase of "dampened" pleasure right now, so I am needing to mentally clear out my mind in order to open back up to receiving enjoyment from the activities that I usually enjoy doing (hiking, dancing, biking, going to the library and to coffee houses). The past two weeks were stressful, visiting my parents and sisters. Now back home in recovery mode...

...and so it would seem that the mind must be tenderly cared for so that pleasure and joy can flower.

Going out beyond the enjoyment of discussion and study of philosophy...for anyone who wants to share...Currently, what are your most pleasurable activities beyond eating and sexuality?

This article might be a start for those of us who are in need of reclaiming all aspects of pleasure...and hope to hear from others on any further thoughts and ideas.

I myself am stuck on pleasure = food ... and hope to move beyond that.

Article title: "When did pleasure become a dirty word?"

Excerpt:

"Why is pleasure so valued in other parts of the world, but not here, not in the U.S.?

On the heels of International Happiness Day, which has been celebrated internationally on March 20 since 2012, let’s begin to unpack our uniquely American aversion to pleasure and how that might be affecting our happiness. According to the Oxford Dictionary, pleasure is defined as “a feeling of happy satisfaction and enjoyment,” or “enjoyment and entertainment, as opposed to necessity.” Given that suicide has ranked among the top 10 causes of death in the U.S. every year since 2008, should we be asking ourselves this question: Have we been underestimating the importance of enjoyment, of pleasure? Is it possible that it really is a necessity?"

https://www.theolympian.com/opinion/article207534699.html