n "Santa Fe Trail" Massey is clearly portraying a religious zealot
He speaks about "conquering"...this seems antithetical to Epicurus' teachings. I wonder if there also a noticable shift in Epicureanism, from Epicurus' time to Cicero's time? And this difference also leads to differing interpretations of Epicureanism.
I want to make a simple table comparing tranquility in Epicureanism vs. Stoicism, to make it easier to see and remember the differences. Will share when completed.
Tranquility is itself a pleasure. It is not a character trait as the Stoics would hold, but rather a state of being free from troubles and anxiety. It is the state of being free from unfulfilled desires and fear of pain or memories of pain. One can feel untroubled by unfulfilled desires by realizing that the things that are most needed are simple to fulfill. Fears are dispelled by realizing that most fears are unfounded. Pains that cannot be overcome will not last long when severe, and when mild one can yet enjoy pleasures. These ideas are reframed in my own words from the jstor article.
This is an interesting write-up on tranquility and how it was differently understood within each of the major Classical schools of philosophy, including Epicureanism. (Author: Gisela Striker)
I hope you will forgive me, but I do have a preference for the printed word. I process things much more easily visually rather than auditorialy.
If you could please post a link to the text document I would greatly appreciate it 
he might point out that Venus was the goddess of pleasure, of love, and of many things similar to that
Okay, thank you, I will need to look into this more 
My newest blog entry, a "common sense" approach, that should align with the views of most on this forum:
In this blog I want to step outside the bounds of classical Epicurean scholarship and explore pleasure and tranquility using a simple “common sense” approach. Pleasure and tranquility need not be mutually exclusive. Not all stress should be avoided and modern Epicureans should move away from seeing tranquility as a main goal.
Epicureans want to live enjoyably and happily, yet modern life is far from tranquil and can create a lot of stress. As modern Epicureans we can see that some people greatly enjoy excitement, activity, and stimulation, and other people enjoy quietude, relaxation, and tranquility. Introverts are estimated to be 25% of the population, and tend to desire more tranquility than extroverts. So keeping in mind that there can be differences in temperament, it makes sense that what is considered pleasurable will also depend on temperament. It would be wrong to impose any one group’s preferences onto another group.
For the sensitive constitution of introverts, the right level of tranquility can be deeply pleasing. Believing that tranquility leads to an enjoyable and happy life, they will limit certain activities and there will be many activities they would never do. However, if they don’t live independently in a remote or rural location, they will need to decide how much stress they want to take on, and make choices. This will often be by trial and error.
With our common modes of transportation, our speed of life is much faster than in the time of antiquity. The structure of 21st century civilization is stressful, complex, and specialized. At the time of Epicurus, life would have very easily and naturally fallen into a simple and tranquil structure, but now it would take much more effort to recreate the tranquility of Ancient Greece. What was tranquil then, to us now appears as an ascetic lifestyle. Our modern brains are now wired for a certain level of stimulation, and the happiest life will need to find the most agreeable level of mental and sensory stimulation. Too much tranquility can become unhealthy and for some can lead to feelings of emptiness, lethargy, and even lead to depression. So for these reasons it becomes questionable as to whether setting tranquility in life as a main goal will result in the most happy life. In addition, human beings are social animals and need to interact regularly with others to experience feelings of belonging and security. All social interaction contains within it a certain level of stress, but the goal of attaining pleasureable social interactions will help guide the modern Epicurean.
While the introverts might focus on modulating the level of stress in their lives, the other more extroverted folks will be busy taking on more challenges and living a much more active lifestyle. They will seek out adventure and novel sensory experiences. They will enjoy a lively environment that tickles the heart and mind with pleasure and joyful social interactions.
Regardless of introvert or extrovert tendencies, some stresses in life actually do lead to a kind of mental pleasure that cannot be produced by any other way. One example is participating in a gathering of people. With the right kind of people and in the right setting, the kind of joy that can well up within the heart cannot be found in solitude. And yet again this may best be enjoyed by those who have learned how to navigate a social environment. It is possible to learn and practice socializing in order to move from introvert to ambivert, and I would greatly encourage any introverted Epicureans to put effort into this, as the rewards are great.
Extroverted Epicureans already know and enjoy the pleasure of socializing, and they can help the introverts ease into the social fabric of a community, through thoughtful questions that pull introverts into conversation. Introverted Epicureans can also be of service to the community by bring the gifts they have learned through mastery of their sensitivities. They can help modulate the energy level if it gets too fast or loud, by requesting a resting break during community discussion. When attending a party and the dancing has ended, they can bring in more flowing soothing music conducive to good conversations.
The best kinds of gatherings would be between Epicureans who put forth the enjoyable meeting of the mind and the heart, as the agreed upon social goal. They would have no need for the social behaviors that cause stress, because they would set aside competition for attention, passive aggressiveness, pessimism, irritability, impatience, and harsh judgements. They would focus on sharing the joys of insight into the Epicurean philosophy and embody any kind of behavior that leads to pleasurable and agreeable friendship and conversation: smiles, encouragements, positivity, patience, clear and direct speaking, warm greetings and farewells of kisses and hugs. This kind of gathering would be stimulating for the mind and the senses, and yet enjoyable, and it very well could be considered both tranquil and stimulating at the same time.
I happened upon this, but haven't read very much yet. Has anyone else already seen this?
"Among Friends: Cicero and the Epicureans" Thesis by Nathan Gilbert
"Cicero’s social relationships with a wide range of Greek and Roman Epicureans and his epistolary debates with them reveal how his overt and consistent hostility toward the Garden reflects far more than the standard practice of refuting a rival school (i.e. like certain anti-Epicurean discourses of Epictetus or polemical works of Plutarch). Cicero’s hostility, stretching from the preface of Book I of De Republica to the final paragraphs of De Officiis (3.116-20), amounts to nothing less than a consistent campaign to undermine and demolish the influence and popularity of Epicureanism in Italy and seeks simultaneously to establish his place in the history of Roman literature over his philosophical rivals, a group of early Latin authors of Epicurean treatises (including Lucretius)." ...
...."Finally, I also hope that my analysis of Cicero's anti-Epicurean polemics will offer clarification as to how he can be used responsibly in reconstructions of the school's doctrines."
Thanks! And I hope to start an in person philosophy group next year in January. So I have a bit time till then to do more blogging and set up some very basic introductory Epicurean philosophy pages.
A Call to Joyous Epicurean Living
Rejoice in the joys of the spirit. Rise up and dance! For the spirit keeps safe the seat of wisdom. Partake in the joys of the body often and with prudence. For the spirit animates the body and it knows the wisest way to enjoy living.
As the ancient song of Seiklos says: "While you live, shine! Have no grief at all. Life exists only for a short while, and time demands its due."
The spirit does not live forever, as some may believe. For it only comes to animate the flesh just as heat comes from a burning fire. And when the heat of the body dissipates, so too does the spirit.
And just as a kernel of wheat ripens, so too the spirit ripens with experience of wisdom. Even in the midst of a feast of pleasure, you must always hold pain in its proper place, or you will lose the benefit of its guidance. For pain always guides one who makes foolish mistakes. By pain we learn what to avoid, and by pain we learn wisdom. A life of joy takes no pride in pain or the endurance of painful over-indulgences. Instead, a life of joy rejoices in the merits of wisdom, the fullness of delight, and the intimacy of uplifting friendship.
https://epicureanphilosophyblog.blogspot.com/2021/11/joyful-right-living.html
our lives are of most important value to us, so that we should focus our effort on using our time the "best" way possible. And we have to have a philosophical judgment as to what is the "best way possible."
What I find valuable about this forum (Cassius@ under your direct guidance) is that you advocate that each individual should be allowed to make their own choices as to what the "best way possible" is. Of course, we assume that we have developed the wisdom to make choices that are ethical, and so we don't choose to do things that cause any pain or suffering to others.
As to personal choices, I myself won't ever choose bungie jumping or sky diving, and yet there could considered a place in "hedonism" for those who have high testosterone levels and seek to enjoy themselves in potentially risky or intense sensory experiences. I think these kinds of choices would be considered a "modern" interpretation of Epicureanism. Epicurus himself led a quiet life and I can't see him wanting to do any risky behaviors. There is much more sweet pleasure to be had in the "Garden".
"To-morrow, dearest Piso, your friend, beloved by the Muses, who keeps our annual feast of the twentieth * invites you to come after the ninth hour to his simple cottage. If you miss udders and draughts of Chian wine, you will see at least sincere friends and you will hear things far sweeter than the land of the Phaeacians. But if you ever cast your eyes on me, Piso, we shall celebrate the twentieth richly instead of simply."
Principal Doctrines, by Epicurus
| 27. | Of all the things that wisdom provides for the complete happiness of one's entire life, by far the greatest is friendship. [note] | ὧν ἡ σοφία παρασκευάζεται εἰς τὴν τοῦ ὅλου βίου μακαριότητα πολὺ μέγιστόν ἐστιν ἡ τῆς φιλίας κτῆσις. |
Actually should be: 1) a pamphlet with that title, and 2) a separate bulletin poster.
Happiness is also in the idea of finding new friends while creating a happy shared worldview.
The title of this thread "Recommendations for Happy Living" gives me ideas for creating a very simplified version of an Epicurean pamphlet that could be part of a posting that could be put up on community bulletin boards announcing Epicurean philosophy discussions (for local, in person meetings).
This has useful ideas and with some modifications it could become an "official" Epicurean phamplet.
Suggestions for a few changes and additions.
#7 - is there source material on this? (though it's true, yet it sounds a bit "dark")
#10 - delete "No matter how cute she is." (Or change it to: "No matter how cute they are.")
#11 - change the "pulling wings off flies" analogy to something else such as playing Pokemon.
#13 - add a bit more of an explanation on this point
Add something about natural justice (?)
Possibly site reference numbers to PD's, etc.
I listened to entire Episode 96. I found it enjoyable and intellectually stimulating. You are all contributing such interesting points. Was the "proof" adequately established? Not sure if I missed something. It seems proof is taken on the premise of a materialist framing of the world, and those who come from a supernatural or platonic absolute won't be convinced.
Stoics vs. Epicurean philosophy:
Epicurus' philosophy is better characterized by the statement that peace of mind is required to experience maximum pleasure but is not equal to pleasure
This is good. This sheds light on things.
And so then:
Just as virtue is in the service of pleasure, so too peace of mind is in the service of pleasure.
"For there is nothing terrible in living for the one who truly comprehends that there is nothing terrible in not living"
So then, this is mostly in regard to the fear of a mythical religious afterlife? Not so much as simple fear of non-existence(?) since atheism is only a limited modern movement.
Fears of death:
1) fear of an imagined afterlife (hell or a purgatory)
2) fear of the end of one's existence (an innate grasping desire for self-existence)
3) fear of the painful experience of dying (will it be excruciatingly painful?)
4) fear of living through long moments when it is uncertain if one will live or die (during severe sickness, war, political unrest, famine).
