I registered an account because the common-sense interpretation of pleasure as opposed to bread-and-water ataraxia made sense to me, and in order to learn more.
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Posts by Kalosyni
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Hi Everyone, This thread gathers together some usage tips, which may be a helpful guide for new users. Let us know if you have any questions, or any suggestions on things which aren't covered here, thank you
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I just finished listening to the podcast...enjoyed it hearing many of the ideas presented, even though there were some hard topics presented (the torture description which I had never heard of before).
It seems to me that this podcast points to tranquil pleasures as being very important.
"We refuse to believe, however, that when pleasure is removed, grief instantly ensues, excepting when perchance pain has taken the place of the pleasure; but we think on the contrary that we experience joy on the passing away of pains, even though none of that kind of pleasure which stirs the senses has taken their place; and from this it may be understood how great a pleasure it is to be without pain." --Cicero, paragraph #56
This explains the importance of absense of pain in Epicureanism.
And there was a comment about Cyrenaics...didn't take notes, so can't restate the exact quote. Instead, I will give this description from Wikipedia:
Quote"The Cyrenaics taught that the only intrinsic good is pleasure, which meant not just the absence of pain (as it did for Epicurus), but positively enjoyable sensations. Of these, momentary pleasures, especially physical ones, are stronger than those of anticipation or memory. They did, however, recognize the value of social obligation and that pleasure could be gained from altruistic behaviour. The school died out within a century and was replaced by the philosophy of Epicureanism."
I just feels like there is so much in common between the two schools. Because even mental pleasures of anticipation or memory exists "in time" and so has a momentary quality.
It is possible that my own belief leans more toward the Cyrenaics. Memory might become more important for me if I grow old and infirm. But for now I both need and want to "indulge" in pleasurable activity...and I choose healthy activities that don't bring pain or problems.
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Have to share my feelings about "The Good Place" clip...on one level it is comedy, and on another level it illustrates how modern civilization might be "devolving" as evinced by the petty thoughts of the characters, and the story line. A few years ago with a friend...watched a few of the very early episodes of "The Good Place" and found it unappealing. Watching this clip reminds me that I can both laugh at comedy and feel disgusted by the underlying ideas presented. Perhaps some people find that internal discord entertaining. I would guess that it was presented here simply as a way to quickly illustrate the "trolley problem".
I haven't listened to the podcast yet...will have more to say after listening.
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For anyone who feels that studying Epicureanism (and the resources on this website) is like an "independent study college course"...then these study tips might be a way of going about it:
Bloom's Taxonomy - remember, understand, appy, analyze, synthesize, evaluate, create:
Higher Order Thinking: Bloom’s Taxonomy – Learning CenterMany students start college using the study strategies they used in high school, which is understandable—the strategies worked in the past, so why wouldn’t…learningcenter.unc.eduConcept Maps – Learning CenterWhat are concept maps? Concept maps are visual representations of information. They can take the form of charts, graphic organizers, tables, flowcharts, Venn…learningcenter.unc.edu -
Just an idea... Maybe we need to collaboratively work on creating more documents in the lexicon section... "wikipedia" type pages... where we organize by topic, using the information presented in the best posts. We could have a simple glossary and links would open to an one or two page overview of each glossary entry. So this would by-pass the complexity of multiple threads. Already there is so much here that it would fill many books.
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My initial intention of this thread was to investigate how to present Epicurean philosophy so that more people could learn and benefit. And that it would be nice to have something simplified for people who want to learn but don't have enough time to dedicate to this forum. This could take the form of an overview, possibly drawn from existing threads, nicely and simply formated for easy viewing:
Will now cross reference this thread which was recently referred to elsewhere:
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Just to add in an important point...The Epicurean philosophy arose within ancient Athens, where there were laws and a judicial system, so everyone had a civilized sense of "right and wrong" much like we do now.
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This idea comes to me now...
In Buddhism, when people formally join the community, they take precepts. The precepts contain within them an outline of the ways in which a person is to "do no harm" (to abstain from killing, to abstain from taking what is not given, and to abstain from false speech - being the main ones dealing with non-harming).
Since so much of what Epicurus wrote was lost, we can't know if back in Epicurus' time, his community had some sort of precepts that were taken or agreed upon.
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let's pursue these issues as deeply and at length as you are inclined to do so. And it's good to write them in the public threads too, because they have come up many times before and will come up many times in the future.
Thank you Cassius
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Matt ...
...I see now that my fears are with an imaginary situation, since the reality is that this forum is virtual and not real life.
This whole discussion only makes sense in real life...in a real kepos, between real people, in real situations.
My question is how to trust other people who are in a shared real life environment? If everyone is pursuing firstly their own individual pleasure, they must also have a believe in the mutual motivation "to cause no harm"...or else there is no trust, and without trust there is no safety.
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Although it is a generally good practice to do no harm, there is no universal imperative to do so. This doesn’t mean everyone needs to be hostile to everyone, but nature tells us that violence is a very significant part of reality. We may not wish to do harm, however humankind follows no unified ideology and the evidence explicitly shows that humans harm each other every moment of the day. The Epicurean has to be ready for anything to preserve the individual’s freedom and pursuit of pleasure…and that may mean a show of force or even as a last resort a violent interaction.
If this is what this online forum advocates and believes then my feeling of a pleasant and safe stay here might have just ended. For I won't be able to trust anyone and that will create fear and trouble in my mind (and very likely also for others).
So this brings me back around to the role of tranquility within Epicureanism, and which we do find evidence of its importance in the Principle Doctrines.
From the materialist understanding of the universe, there is no absolute virtue since there are no gods who mandate this for us. However, we do have a sense of virtue based on the pleasure-pain principle, and when one takes this line of thinking to it's conclusion we come to: "It feels good to be with people who will not harm me" and "It feels good to me to give the gift of non-harming to others". And "I enjoy a certain level of safety and tranquility in my environment and in my internal mental experience".
So now I have come around from an early stance of questioning tranquility... and so now I must embrace tranquility and say:
There is no adequate pleasure without adequate tranquility. And we can only hope to find this in the safety and peace of the Epicurean Garden. AND it seems now also that it must be a mutually agreed upon "contract".
I welcome any comments
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Thank you Cassius and Everyone!!!
Happy New Year!!!
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Okay, thanks for clarifying Don
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Don you gave my post on ethics a confused smilie. Do you think that what I posted about ethics might not be Epicurean, or possibly goes beyond Epicureanism? What part were you confused about?
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*Admin Edit: This thread contains posts with a main focus on justice, which have been transfered here from the following thread:
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There is no absolute virtue or eternal "concepts" of any kind (because there is nothing eternal in the universe except the atoms, which means that there are no eternal combinations that could form a basis for anything absolute; and because there is no "center" to the universe from which there could be a single perspective by which to judge all others; because there is no supernatural god whose perspective could be deemed to be the only correct one, etc.)
The ethics would be that all animals and humans feel pleasure and pain. When you cause pain to another human, it results in a mental and/or physical reaction...and also as when they are not consenting to the painful thing that was done to them. When you do this inside the tribe or community, then you are violating a kind of social contract of the mutual understanding "to do no harm". A tribe or community comes together for the benefits of shared interactions. So any kind of pain or harm goes against the purpose of the community. Yet as the population and civilization of Earth have increased, the boundaries of what is tribe or community are blurred. So now we must extend this "do no harm" to all people. We can use restorative justice...or if necessary when someone has caused violence and is dangerous we must take them out of the general population as a way to protect others...not as punishment, since punishment is a kind of violence. (My understanding of "free-will" is very complex).
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There is no absolute virtue or eternal "concepts" of any kind (because there is nothing eternal in the universe except the atoms, which means that there are no eternal combinations that could form a basis for anything absolute; and because there is no "center" to the universe from which there could be a single perspective by which to judge all others; because there is no supernatural god whose perspective could be deemed to be the only correct one, etc.)
The ethics would be that all animals and humans feel pleasure and pain. When you cause pain to another human, it results in a mental and/or physical reaction...and also as when they are not consenting to the painful thing that was done to them. When you do this inside the tribe or community, then you are violating a kind of social contract of the mutual understanding "to do no harm". A tribe or community comes together for the benefits of shared interactions. So any kind of pain or harm goes against the purpose of the community. Yet as the population and civilization of Earth have increased, the boundaries of what is tribe or community are blurred. So now we must extend this "do no harm" to all people. We can use restorative justice...or if necessary when someone has caused violence and is dangerous we must take them out of the general population as a way to protect others...not as punishment, since punishment is a kind of violence. (My understanding of "free-will" is very complex).
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Admin Edit: For the continued discussion on the topic of justice, go here.
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both physics and epistemology and doesn't lead the reader to think that Epicurus' ethics are the only important thing about his system.
The reason I haven't spent much time with Epicurean physics and epistemology is that I am a firm believer in modern science. I think it might be important to contrast Epicurus' ideas with modern scientific understanding.
Check out this:
Did Humans Evolve to See Things as They Really Are?Do we perceive reality as it is?www.scientificamerican.com -
It just occurred to me...I wonder how many people in the U.S. would actually identify at a "free thinker"?
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