Posts by Kalosyni

There are many interesting points made here by Cassius, Godfrey, Don.

It seems to me that you can look at pleasure and pain as either additive or subtractive. So the subtractive way to look at pleasure, is that pain has been removed, and in it's place we now have pleasure. And since Epicurus says there is no neutral state of feelings, then that would mean that (for example) the pleasure of fun and entertainments has removed the pain of boredom.

It is more appealing to me to see pleasure as additive, and that is probably a heuristic. However, if one is to maximize enjoyment, then it is good to remove mental pains of anxiety and stress.

I'll need to ponder the jelly bean jar analogy a bit more to see if it works for me, or come up with something that can also accommodate the two types of pleasures - pleasures that last only a short time and pleasures that last much longer.

Thank you Cassius and @Godfrey...It's going to take me some time to "unpack" and digest your replies.

I'd be interested in any getting any feedback regarding this list:

An Epicurean Understanding of Pleasure

1) Do not pursue reckless or extravagant luxuries, but enjoy the occasional luxury should it happen to come your way.

2) Take action to eliminate bodily and mental pains, and enjoy the pleasure, tranquility, and peace of mind that comes as you eliminate hunger, thirst, fear, anxiety, stress, and boredom.

3) Study philosophy which leads to tranquility and peace of mind.

4) Cultivate and enjoy friendships with like-minded people.

5) Savor the sweetness of life as you pursue the fulfillment of life's natural desires, while neither causing harm to yourself or nor others.

6) Realize that at a certain point enjoyment comes to it's totality, and any additional pleasure is like "icing on a cake".

And even better to satisfy the belly and the intellect at the same time!

Oops, some how it posted twice...

...double the pleasure

To summarize the pleasures from the above posts, for the sheer enjoyment.

And for sure there are many more than these...

---nature/outdoors/cosmos - sensations of warmth on the skin from the sun and taking in pleasing sights and sounds with the eyes and ears

---joy of the intellect and thinking - books, reading, writing, poetry

---movement of the body - walking, yoga, dance

---stillness of the body - meditation

---conversation

And I would create a separate category for the following (due to the possibility of mixed results and the need for moderation)

---romance, wine, food, sex

Then also there is the pleasure of recollection...

In a separate thread Cassius shared a passage that I find to be very helpful from Torquatus "On Ends":

"...let him never suffer the pleasures of the past to fade away, but constantly renew their enjoyment in recollection, and his lot will be one which will not admit of further improvement."

To summarize the pleasures from the above posts, for the sheer enjoyment.

And for sure there are many more than these.

---nature/outdoors/cosmos - sensations of warmth on the skin from the sun and taking in pleasing sights and sounds with the eyes and ears

---joy of the intellect and thinking - books, reading, writing, poetry

---movement of the body - walking, yoga, dance

---stillness of the body - meditation

---conversation

And I would create a separate category for the following (due to the possibility of mixed results and the need for moderation)

---romance, wine, food, sex

Then also there is the pleasure of recollection...

In a separate thread Cassius shared a passage that I find to be very helpful from Torquatus "On Ends":

"...let him never suffer the pleasures of the past to fade away, but constantly renew their enjoyment in recollection, and his lot will be one which will not admit of further improvement."

Thanks Cassius, Don, Joshua, Godfrey

Reading all your inputs...lots of pleasures!

I realize I am just going through a phase of "dampened" pleasure right now, so I am needing to mentally clear out my mind in order to open back up to receiving enjoyment from the activities that I usually enjoy doing (hiking, dancing, biking, going to the library and to coffee houses). The past two weeks were stressful, visiting my parents and sisters. Now back home in recovery mode...

...and so it would seem that the mind must be tenderly cared for so that pleasure and joy can flower.

Going out beyond the enjoyment of discussion and study of philosophy...for anyone who wants to share...Currently, what are your most pleasurable activities beyond eating and sexuality?

This article might be a start for those of us who are in need of reclaiming all aspects of pleasure...and hope to hear from others on any further thoughts and ideas.

I myself am stuck on pleasure = food ... and hope to move beyond that.

Article title: "When did pleasure become a dirty word?"

Excerpt:

"Why is pleasure so valued in other parts of the world, but not here, not in the U.S.?

On the heels of International Happiness Day, which has been celebrated internationally on March 20 since 2012, let’s begin to unpack our uniquely American aversion to pleasure and how that might be affecting our happiness. According to the Oxford Dictionary, pleasure is defined as “a feeling of happy satisfaction and enjoyment,” or “enjoyment and entertainment, as opposed to necessity.” Given that suicide has ranked among the top 10 causes of death in the U.S. every year since 2008, should we be asking ourselves this question: Have we been underestimating the importance of enjoyment, of pleasure? Is it possible that it really is a necessity?"

https://www.theolympian.com/opinion/article207534699.html

I started watching just a bit of it...and had some ideas to share...Brooks says happiness is not a feeling...but then goes on to say it is enjoyment, satisfaction, and purpose...and then they both reframe "pleasure" as "enjoyment" (they might think pleasure maybe is too animalistic? ...but pleasure is in the body whereas enjoyment is in the mind).

Since I don't know yet how he goes on to define each of those... but have some thought come up... would say there might be something to "happiness" having several components. And possibly satisfaction is a mental story that you tell yourself after the pleasurable event is over. As for purpose I think that is really the human connection aspect of life. And yet there are ideas in current society that you "should" accomplish something in your (as well as the idea that progress occurs). But for an Epicurean... a purpose = to share in pleasurable experiences with others? Because pleasure is usually more pleasurable when shared and enjoyed together with others.

Anyway I may or may not watch the rest of this video...though curious how it all gets defined.

I am now remembering the Berkeley "Science of Happiness" online class (I took a few years ago). Which was very good, but was unable to implement some aspects.

The Science of Happiness Course

Thank you Cassius and Don for your feedback.

I find this forum to be beneficial for learning due to your commitment (as well as the few other regular contributors) to strive to uncover the original ideas of Epicurus.

As for a practical application...

In my own life, I want to create pleasurable friendships with like minded people. And so I ask myself how will I do that in these current times? Where I live (Oregon) is currently having a continued covid surge, which makes it difficult to create new social connections. My few friends are all busy people --- people live insular lives with their life partner, raising children, working long hours. I do none of those things, and so simply want to create a way to interact with people, and preferably in a fun way.

“Friendship goes dancing round the world, announcing to all of us to wake up to happiness” (Vatican Saying = VS 52)

Quote from Macario

it would work on some Ecovillage self-sustainable model

Hi Macario, Yes! And if we can't find it, we can create it!

And is anyone else interested in this too? I would love to know, as networking could be the key to creating this.

In Epicurus' teachings I remember reading something about self-sufficiency (I don't remember exactly what it was), but as I lay awake in the middle of the night, due to feelings of anxiety for the uncertainty of the future, it came to me that the only antidote to the anxiety is to actively work to become more self-sufficient -- to learn survival skills and to also live in a community that could survive the future fracturing of civilization due to climate change. (I live in Oregon which is having yet another summer of intense forest fires, hazardous air quality from wildfire smoke, and extreme drought).

So what would be the ideal location for an Epicurean Eco-community? ...possibly Alaska? Or...?

Can we agree on a set of Epicurean postulates?

And a way to run the eco-community social structure?

It's good reading everyone's comments, ideas, and helpful suggestions.

Feeling grateful for the learning resources this forum provides

Quote from Cassius

We can write torrents of words here, and definitely gain some pleasure from that, but unless we have "real-life" friends of the type Epicurus was referring to, and nor just "virtual" friends, then the pleasure we gain will not be as full as it could be,...

and Cassius' additional quote:

"....It seems to me that Epicurus was always and will always be the best fit for practical common sense people who are averse to Mumbo-Jumbo and unrealistic expectations, so the issue is how to find and connect with those, who aren't necessarily going to be found on Facebook or Reddit or Twitter, or hanging out in philosophy interest groups ..."

I hope it's okay for me to add in some thoughts even though this thread was from last year...regarding teaching this philosophy to others. My own beliefs might place me halfway between "Epicurean Friends.com" and "Society of Epicurus.com", and yet also maybe a bit of Cyrenaics.

I should confess that I've done very little study of philosophy in general, let alone Epicurean philosophy. I just see how going toward pleasure in thoughts and actions is a helpful guide in living life, for me. Just a short time time after first beginning to read about the philosophy of Epicurus, it resonated for me, so much so, that I thought it might be fun to start a "Meetup group" in the city in which I live.

As I've been diving deeper into reading posts on this site (as well as reading other sources) the more I study, the more unclear I get about what Epicurus actually taught.

And some reasons that might complicate sharing Epicurus' philosophy:

1) The name "Epicurean" - as it exists to the every day common understanding is: one who is devoted to the enjoyment of fine food and wine. It will be difficult to overcome that definition of "Epicurean".

2) The academic interpretation vs. DeWitt interpretation (both of which I have yet to fully grasp) seems to lend itself to endless debate, and is further complicated if you are wanting to use the phrase "Classical Epicureanism".

3) "Pleasure is the highest good" - this phrase is ethically incomplete, and it is too vague and open to multiple interpretations.

There might be other reasons in addition. So these might be complicating your situation with expanding your outreach.

For myself, it has occurred to me that if I want to start a meetup, the name might have to have words other than "Epicurean" or "Epicurus".

.

I'm appreciating reading everyone's insights here, and realizing I need to start some serious studying, since I have just barely begun to dip my toes into the philosophy of Epicurus.

This afternoon I read the article "The Philosophy for Millions" by DeWitt.

With regard to the discussion about my comment about "a worthwhile life"...Here is a quote from DeWitt's article:

"In spite of this teaching it was not the doctrine of Epicurus that pleasure was the greatest good. To his thinking the greatest good was life itself. This was a logical deduction from the denial of immortality. Without the afterlife this present life becomes the concentration of all values. Pleasure, or happiness, has its place as the end, goal, or fulfillment of living.

It was the Stoics and Cicero who concocted and publicized the false report that Epicurus counted pleasure as the greatest good. This is mistakenly asserted in all our handbooks."

So there are a lot of subtleties and nuances to examine, and I am thinking I need to take a good chunk of time to study, take notes, and write out any questions, before I do much more posting in this forum. (Plus, there is so many interesting threads posted inside the forum to read).

And this is also interesting from DeWitt's article:

"Outside of the school he instituted a method of disseminating his new doctrine by personal contacts. Each convert was urged to win over the members of his own household, his friends and neighbors, “never slackening in spreading by every means the doctrines of the true philosophy.” Prospective converts were plied with books and tracts. Epicurus himself, like John Wesley, became a busy compiler of textbooks, and specific instructions were written for the proper use of them. He made outlines of doctrine for those who were unable to live in residence. The allegiance of disciples living in other cities was retained by epistles painstakingly composed. Thus the new school was transformed into a self-propagating sect."

So from this it seems there was quite a bit of dedication to passing on the teachings. And I would guess the teachings back then were much more exact and clear, without too many areas that were up for personal interpretation. But now, since so little of Epicurus' writings survived (and when so much of what did survive is mixed up with other schools of philosophy) it looks like there are a lot gray areas open to interpretation.

--- I am off to go study!

Quote from Godfrey

. The Garden would have been a center for friendship as well as learning and practice.

I try to imagine what it would have been like!

And I also can see that it could be wonderful to re-create a modern Garden (or Gardens)...even a movement which would bring friendship and savoring life as the most important things, and work to overcome alienation, isolation, and consumerist over-consumption. And it would also be a place to examine and discuss the question of what makes a worthwhile enjoyable life.

Quote from Cassius

since all is done for the sake of pleasure.

And maybe to put it another way... for the sake of savoring and the enjoyment a life worth living?

I guess I still need to examine my personal hang-ups with the word "pleasure" that come from a protestant upbringing.

Quote from Godfrey

the Buddhist desire to get rid of desires

For me it seemed that in the Buddhism there is an attitude of acquiescing and accepting things as they are, and yet we are alive and have human needs.

This is where I find Epicurus to be of great help in that he has categories of needs - natural and necessary; natural and unnecessary; and culturally conditioned and fruitless.

And from what I understand human connection and friendship is both a natural and necessary need, which back in Epicurus' time was probably much easier to have fulfilled compared to our current times.

Thank you Cassius, and thank you for creating this amazing resource and forum!

My studies of Epicurus have just begun this summer, so I am just beginning to build knowledge and understanding. So far I've been reading what I can on the internet, poking around and seeing what I can find, which is how I found this forum. I soon hope to order DeWitt's book, thinking an actual physical book would be nice.

You wrote: "All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies,...".

And that is true for me as well. I studied Buddhist philosophy (many schools of Buddhism and different teachers) and also attended a Zen Buddhist group for a number of years. But I was not happy, and struggled with feelings of emptiness and dark thoughts. It's not enough for the mind to "try" to end suffering. One needs to actively cultivate happiness, and now it feels to me that Epicurus philosophy has a way for me to do so.

Having found Epicurus ancient philosophy, I feel like it has already helped me. I feel more hopeful. It is truly a gift to incline the mind toward pleasure and the goodness of life! Especially appealing to me is the emphasis on friendship in Epicureanism.

Thank you again for this place to connect with others who are interested in this philosophy!