Posts by Kalosyni

I think it is important to seek enjoyment from a wide assortment of activities and people, so that you don't become dependent on any one thing or any one person. Happiness doesn't come from any one thing, but from many things.

I listened to half of "Dopamine Nation". When asked if addictions can ever be beneficial, she says she uses a different label, such a passion. She also says that you know something is an addiction if the rest of the world turns pale in comparison, and you have too narrow of a focus on one behavior. It becomes maladaptive and you have to increase your activity more and more in order to get the same feelings of pleasure.

Quote from Cassius

These guys are fooling no one but themselves if they think that there is an ideal of "moderation" or "ideal quantity" that has some absolute value separate from circumstances that can be referenced by referring to "moderation" in and of itself. Instead, what there is in place of that is always a quantity that makes sense based on context, which varies by fact. In this case, the proper quantity varies with things like the weight of the drinker, their built-up tolerance to alcohol, and other aspects of bodily chemistry that varies by individual.

Yes, I agree with you. There isn't a set quantity that can be applied to everyone.

I thought the quote from the play was kind of funny. But then thought about it after posting it...how odd that the third bowl leads to sleep, but the fourth one to violence. Seems a little extreme. Now most people in modern times know how to hold their public drinking in check, since it's both unsafe and against the law to drive drunk.

I think moderation is an important skill, but I don't think of it as a virtue. I think of it as a helpful tool. It's simply an internal knowing, an internal wisdom, that you learn with trial and error...for what feels best inside your own body. Every body has to learn it for themselves, by being fully present to what feels good vs. what feels bad. So over time paying attention and moving toward what feels good.

Yes wine has certain romantic and aesthetic aspect. I used to drink more wine back when I was married. We would have Cabernet wine with dinner. But 50 percent of the time it would give me a headache. I cut back on portion size and sometimes had only 2 oz. and that worked better for me. Since living single and being such a lightweight, I cut way back on wine. Rarely bring any home. In summertime I've mixed a rose' with sparkling mineral water and add a touch of cherry or other fruit juice.

Beer has lower percentage of alcohol and rarely gives me a headache (I avoid IPA which causes headache). And lately beer just seems to taste better to me. There must be something genetic about my not metabolizing alcohol very well, and so I've learned to enjoy it by drinking smaller quantities. I've even tried adding sparkling mineral water to certain beers, but still experimenting with which kind and what else to add.

Listened to this last night. Some thoughts, and then some obvious words of advice:

For me the word "temperance" brings up the idea of abstinence from alcohol (the U.S. Temperance Movement). The word "prudence" works better for me. As for "moderation" the online dictionary definition is "the avoidance of excess or extremes". Moderation is necessary in meal portion sizes, sugar/carb intake, and alcohol. The pains of over consumption feel unpleasant. Moderation leads to a more enjoyable life. Sugar and alcohol are best in smaller quantities, with an exception for rare special occasions (as long as one "paces oneself").

As for the habit of using food to self-soothe, moderation is a necessary virtue. It would be prudent to find an alternative to using food for self-soothing. Also make sure not to buy binge-inducing snack foods, and instead buy more fresh fruits to eat...Desire that which is good for you.

Regarding wine consumption in Ancient Greece, I found this on wikipedia:

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The poet Eubulus noted that three bowls (kylikes) were the ideal amount of wine to consume. The quantity of three bowls to represent moderation is a recurring theme throughout Greek writing (today, the standard 750 ml bottle contains roughly three to six glasses of wine, depending on serving size).[1] In his c. 375 BC play Semele or Dionysus, Eubulus has Dionysus say:

"Three bowls do I mix for the temperate: one to health, which they empty first; the second to love and pleasure; the third to sleep. When this bowl is drunk up, wise guests go home. The fourth bowl is ours no longer, but belongs to violence; the fifth to uproar; the sixth to drunken revel; the seventh to black eyes; the eighth is the policeman's; the ninth belongs to biliousness; and the tenth to madness and the hurling of furniture."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece_and_wine

LOL...yes it's a picture of my holiday stach. I shop at Trader Joe's and they have lots of fun stuff. So far I tried the Pecan Pie Porter and liked it...haven't tried the others yet.

Thanks for all your helpful feedback. I see I better correct my post, and in the future be more careful in how I state things.

Here are some excerpts of the main points from my latest blog post, which I hope upholds this forum's take on Epicureanism. Feel free to correct me if something isn't quite "kosher" in the Epicurean sense, or if there is anything that should be added.

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The following blog post came to me after reading an email in which a friend wrote the phrase: "I guess I better....". It got me thinking, because I've also noticed that phrase in my self, in various situations. It is sometimes also phrased as "I guess I better stop...." The following is intended to be helpful for evaluating whether or not a given activity is "working" or bringing benefits or bringing pleasure for your unique situation.

"Activities Evaluation" (both long-term and short-term).

State the specific activity that you wish to evaluate:

Evaluate this activity by choosing the best guess for each point below:

1) How likely is this to result in the pleasure and enjoyment of increased future security?(Increased resources of monetary, material goods, or friendship/community).

---Gauranteed/Likely/Uncertain/Unlikely/Impossible---

2) How likely is this to result in the pleasure and enjoyment of increased status or good reputation? (Being evaluated by others as knowledgeable, wise, skilled, courageous, or compassionate AND which also leads to increased resources of friendship/community. *Virtuous activities engaged in during isolation and/or exhibited only in the presence of strangers are less likely to increase "social security" and less likely to lead to long-term benefit).

---Gauranteed/Likely/Uncertain/Unlikely/Impossible

3) How likely is this to result in the pleasure and enjoyment of more stable existing relationships and/or new friendships/new community engagement?
---Guaranteed/Likely/Uncertain/Unlikely/Impossible---

4) How likely is this to result in pleasure and enjoyment from increased skill and artistic flow? (The joy of doing this, and the enjoyment of the focused discipline to do this).

---Gauranteed/Likely/Uncertain/Unlikely/Impossible---

5) How likely is this to result in immediate sensory pleasure and enjoyment?

---Gauranteed/Likely/Uncertain/Unlikely/Impossible---

6) How likely is this to result in a bad outcome? (Loss of property/wealth/reputation, loss of friendship/community, loss of good health, emotional/physical pain caused to self or to others, or a conflicting opportunity cost (time which could have gone to establishing future security -or- a more pleasure-worthy endeavor).

---Gauranteed/Likely/Uncertain/Unlikely/Impossible---

7) How likely is this to lead to an immediate sense of satiation or feeling of satisfaction?

---Gauranteed/Likely/Uncertain/Unlikely/Impossible---

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Evaluation of Activities for Benefit and Pleasure

The following blog post came to me after reading an email in which a friend wrote the phrase: "I guess I better....". It got me thinking, be...

epicureanphilosophyblog.blogspot.com

I am enjoying reading everyone's comments, such good and helpful insights!

Godfrey ...this comes up for me after reading what you wrote...That the "fear" and the need to defend ideology/religion arises due to how the mind forms concepts.

The Tao te Ching (Stephen Mitchell translation) says:

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"When people see some things as beautiful, other things become ugly.

When people see some things as good, other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.

Difficult and easy support each other.

Long and short define each other.

High and low depend on each other.

Before and after follow each other."

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I am currently contemplating how Taoism compares with Epicureanism. It seems that some of it fits, but yet other aspects are too much like Pyrrhonism/Skepticism.

There is the enjoyment of procuring/creating all the sensory delights of the season, and for the enjoyable feelings of anticipation as the holiday celebrations near -- this for me was especially so back when I was married. My ex and I would go to his family of origin (his mom, siblings, nieces and nephews). It was always a very festive Christmas overflowing with abundance. And I have the fun memory of everyone sipping wine, laughing and playing "Apples to Apples" game.

It does seem that every holiday season causes me take stock regarding the kinds of friendships and emotional connections I have in my life. This year I find that I need to focus my mind more on the pleasures of making my living space cosy, rather than on emotional connections (it's complicated for me right now, because I am in an uncommitted "situationship").

This year I am going to fullful my wish of making a gingerbread house, all from scratch, so it will be good and tasty enough to eat on Christmas day.

I think I see some of what you are saying Cassius. It might be that some of what I write might be "crazymaking" in that I am probably going around-and-around in circles, while both forgetting the actual philosophy and making slightly off-kilter arguments. (How do I learn to stop doing that?...I need to study the basics more and take better notes, and learn how to present my ideas in a cleaner, clearer fashion).

But I think I do enjoy the "learning by hashing things out" method. I hope it isn't too annoying for people. (Am I just entertaining myself but boring others?)

So...Another way to look at this is that "the telos" is also the goal. For example, Christians have as their goal to see Jesus in heaven after they die, and that goal would both include salvation and go beyond it. But they don't have that as their only goal.

Now for Epicureans the goal is to live life the most pleasureably, because this life is the only life. And to live pleasureably both includes and goes beyond tranquility.

A question that comes up for me lately is, at what point does an Epicurean say: "I've studied the teachings and I've learned the teachings, now I will simply just live the teachings." Yet, one would not feel fully contented until one as established the fundamental material attributes underlying the Epicurean lifestyle.

I am still contemplating the role of tranquility within Epicureanism.

Tranquility as defined as peace of mind, which would be a mental attitude. So it is that one feels untroubled and free from disturbances.

Martin said in an earlier thread:

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Epicurus' philosophy is better characterized by the statement that peace of mind is required to experience maximum pleasure but is not equal to pleasure.

(And according to Striker's article tranquility is a sort of pleasure).

So now there is:

1) Tranquility is not the highest pleasure

2) Tranquility is a sort of pleasure

3) Tranquility is required to experience maximum pleasure

A certain amount of tranquility is required for a happy life. The tranquil person will be able to sleep soundly at night and wake up refreshed and ready to enjoy life. But those who struggle with bouts of insomnia may need to invest some time to process anxieties, etc. I myself occassionally have been dealing with insomnia. I don't think a therapist is required, but some processing of anxiety, fear, and unfulfilled desires, is necessary. I can see that there are some PD's that might apply.

Has there been any analysis on Diogenes Laertius section on Ethics? I found a translation that is different than one you have here on the forum.

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Epicurean ethics

But as to the conduct of life, what we ought to avoid and what to choose, he writes as follows. Before quoting his words, however, let me go into the views of Epicurus himself and his school concerning the wise man.

There are three motives to injurious acts among men—hatred, envy, and contempt; and these the wise man overcomes by reason. Moreover, he who has once become wise never more assumes the opposite habit, not even in semblance, if he can help it. He will be more susceptible of emotion than other men: that will be no hindrance to his wisdom. However, not every bodily constitution nor every nationality would permit a man to become wise.

Even on the rack the wise man is happy. He alone will feel gratitude towards friends, present and absent alike, and show it by word and deed. When on the rack, however, he will give vent to cries and groans. As regards women he will submit to the restrictions imposed by the law, as Diogenes says in his epitome of Epicurus' ethical doctrines. Nor will he punish his servants; rather he will pity them and make allowance on occasion for those who are of good character

.

Epicureans do not suffer the wise man to fall in love; nor will he trouble himself about funeral rites; according to them love does not come by divine inspiration: so Diogenes in his twelfth book. The wise man will not make fine speeches. No one was ever the better for sexual indulgence, and it is well if he be not the worse.

Nor, again, will the wise man marry and rear a family—so Epicurus says in the Problems and in the On Nature. Occasionally he may marry owing to special circumstances in his life. Some too will turn aside from their purpose. Nor will he drivel, when drunken: so Epicurus says in the Symposium. Nor will he take part in politics, as is stated in the first book On Life; nor will he make himself a tyrant; nor will he turn Cynic (so the second book On Life tells us); nor will he be a mendicant.

But even when he has lost his sight, he will not withdraw himself from life: this is stated in the same book. The wise man will also feel grief, according to Diogenes in the fifth book of his Epilecta. And be will take a suit into court. He will leave written words behind him, but will not compose panegyric. He will have regard to his property and to the future.

He will be fond of the country. He will be armed against fortune and will never give up a friend. He will pay just so much regard to his reputation as not to be looked down upon. He will take more delight than other men in public festivals.

The wise man will set up votive images. Whether he is well off or not will be matter of indifference to him. Only the wise man will be able to converse correctly about music and poetry, without however actually writing poems himself. One wise man does not move more wisely than another. And he will make money, but only by his wisdom, if he should be in poverty, and he will pay court to a king, if need be. He will be grateful to anyone when he is corrected.

He will found a school, but not in such a manner as to draw the crowd after him; and will give readings in public, but only by request. He will be a dogmatist but not a mere skeptic; and he will be like himself even when asleep. And he will on occasion die for a friend.

The school holds that sins are not all equal; that health is in some cases a good, in others a thing indifferent; that courage is not a natural gift but comes from calculation of expediency; and that friendship is prompted by our needs. One of the friends, however, must make the first advances (just as we have to cast seed into the earth), but it is maintained by a partnership in the enjoyment of life's pleasures.

Two sorts of happiness can be conceived, the one the highest possible, such as the gods enjoy, which cannot be augmented, the other admitting addition and subtraction of pleasures.

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Diogenes Laertius - Lives of Eminent Philosophers

Thank you Cassius for highlighting certain sections of the article and sharing your views and insights.

Good stuff on Epicureanism.... After reading the parts on Pyrrhonism, it appears to me that Zen Buddhism has some similar views to Pyrrhonism. There were two suicides at the Zen Temple I used to attend. Both were men in their 20's. Such a shame. So much for tranquility. If only they had had the ability to access more pleasure in life.

Pleasure, I firmly believe, is the antidote to the "darkness" and "heaviness" of life. But one must know and practice the best way to dance with one's pleasures.

I will not do a tranquility table of comparison after-all. But there is this difference between Epicurus and the Stoics:

Epicurus -- the happy person will be unperturbed.

Stoics -- the sage will be unperturbable: nothing that happens can possibly bring him any trouble.

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"I will argue that tranquility was in fact not a serious contender for the position of ultimate good in ancient times"

Epicurus: "As he was known, he was a hedonist, who believed that the good, for humans at least, is pleasure, and therefore the best life must be the most pleasant."

From Gisela Striker article:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27903171

Quote from Cassius

n "Santa Fe Trail" Massey is clearly portraying a religious zealot

He speaks about "conquering"...this seems antithetical to Epicurus' teachings. I wonder if there also a noticable shift in Epicureanism, from Epicurus' time to Cicero's time? And this difference also leads to differing interpretations of Epicureanism.

I want to make a simple table comparing tranquility in Epicureanism vs. Stoicism, to make it easier to see and remember the differences. Will share when completed.

Tranquility is itself a pleasure. It is not a character trait as the Stoics would hold, but rather a state of being free from troubles and anxiety. It is the state of being free from unfulfilled desires and fear of pain or memories of pain. One can feel untroubled by unfulfilled desires by realizing that the things that are most needed are simple to fulfill. Fears are dispelled by realizing that most fears are unfounded. Pains that cannot be overcome will not last long when severe, and when mild one can yet enjoy pleasures. These ideas are reframed in my own words from the jstor article.

This is an interesting write-up on tranquility and how it was differently understood within each of the major Classical schools of philosophy, including Epicureanism. (Author: Gisela Striker)

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27903171

I hope you will forgive me, but I do have a preference for the printed word. I process things much more easily visually rather than auditorialy.

If you could please post a link to the text document I would greatly appreciate it

Quote from Cassius

he might point out that Venus was the goddess of pleasure, of love, and of many things similar to that

Okay, thank you, I will need to look into this more