Also, should add here...the quality and number of friendships.
Posts by Kalosyni
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Here are two translations of sections 133,134, and portion of 135, with special emphasis on the bold sections:
Saint-Andre:
"In short, whom do you consider better than someone who holds pious opinions about the gods, who is always fearless in the face of death, who has reasoned out the natural goal of life, and who has understood that the limit of good things is easy to fulfill and easy to achieve, whereas the limit of bad things is either short-lived or causes little pain? Someone who laughs at destiny, which is asserted by some to be the master of all things? For he holds that we are responsible for what we achieve, even though some things happen by necessity, some by chance, and some by our own power, because although necessity is not accountable he sees that chance is unstable whereas the things that are within our power have no other master, so that naturally praise and blame are inseparably connected to them.
Indeed he sees that it would be better even to cleave to the myths about the gods (since that leaves some hope of prevailing upon them through worship) than to be subject to the destiny of the scientists (since that way lies an inexorable necessity). And such a man holds that Fate is not a god (as most people believe) because a god does nothing disorderly, and he holds that Fate is not an uncertain cause because nothing good or bad with respect to a completely happy life is given to men by chance, although it does provide the beginnings of both great goods and great evils.
And he considers it better to be rationally unfortunate than irrationally fortunate, since it is better for a beautiful choice to have the wrong results than for an ugly choice to have the right results just by chance."
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Bailey: [133] "For indeed who, think you, is a better man than he who holds reverent opinions concerning the gods, and is at all times free from fear of death, and has reasoned out the end ordained by nature? He understands that the limit of good things is easy to fulfill and easy to attain, whereas the course of ills is either short in time or slight in pain; he laughs at (destiny), whom some have introduced as the mistress of all things. (He thinks that with us lies the chief power in determining events, some of which happen by necessity) and some by chance, and some are within our control; for while necessity cannot be called to account, he sees that chance is inconstant, but that which is in our control is subject to no master, and to it are naturally attached praise and blame.
[134] For, indeed, it were better to follow the myths about the gods than to become a slave to the destiny of the natural philosophers: for the former suggests a hope of placating the gods by worship, whereas the latter involves a necessity which knows no placation. As to chance, he does not regard it as a god as most men do (for in a god’s acts there is no disorder), nor as an uncertain cause (of all things) for he does not believe that good and evil are given by chance to man for the framing of a blessed life, but that opportunities for great good and great evil are afforded by it.
[135] He therefore thinks it better to be unfortunate in reasonable action than to prosper in unreason. For it is better in a man’s actions that what is well chosen (should fail, rather than that what is ill chosen) should be successful owing to chance."
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Just recently I heard a song with the following chorus lyrics: "I'm living in a world I created for myself" -- which to me sounds very "Epicurean", but also seems a bit daunting because then I am challenged to think about my possessions and the habits in my life and whether or not I chose them, or if I just went along with what everyone else is doing. And also: habits of "doing" influence habits of "thinking". And: what kind of habits of thinking do I want to have. So lots to contemplate.
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I will soon add to this thread some clear references to Plato and Aristotle's ideas on the role of contemplation in philosophy as well as "living like the gods".
I still haven't gotten to this yet, but still planning to do so.
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But what is an „undying/immortal good“ when death is nothing to someone ? That friends maybe live longer than me ? Hm maybe, but it is about the mortality of the good.
The memory of the friend and the friendship that was shared lasts even after the friend has died -- in some ways the "friendship-feeling" never dies even if the friend dies.
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Quote
In 1802, passing through Florence and at the height of his notoriety, Antonio Canova was commissioned by the King of Etruria, Ludovico di Borbone, to make a copy of the Venus de' Medici, the 1st century BC marble sculpture that had already been exhibited in the centre of the Uffizi’s Tribune, but had been requisitioned by the French authorities on 11 September of the same year for the Louvre. At first reluctant to the idea of a replica, the Venetian sculptor eventually accepted, enticed both by the proposal to replace such a masterpiece and by the strong patriotic connotation that the undertaking had immediately assumed.
...the Canova divinity deviated from the illustrious model, being depicted at the moment when she demurely dries herself after coming out of the bath, with the vase of perfumed ointments at her feet. The new sculpture, whose modernity was immediately highlighted in comparison to the ancient prototype, was an enormous success, which made it the subject of extensive critical literature and the protagonist of numerous sonnets, including one by Giovanni Rosini, who baptised it with the title “Italica”. Ugo Foscolo, contrasting her with the Medici Venus, described her as “a beautiful woman, capable of making people fall in love, while the ancient one is an impassive, albeit beautiful, goddess”. In Canova’s work, in fact, the natural grace is accentuated in comparison to the conventionality of the ideal beauty expressed in the Hellenistic exemplar, thanks to the more dynamic pose and slightly larger dimensions, which make her as tall as a real woman.
Venus Italica by Antonio CanovaIn 1802, passing through Florence and at the height of his notoriety, Antonio Canova was commissioned by the King of Etruria, Ludovico di Borbone, to make a…www.uffizi.itThe Medici Venus is one of the most-copied antiquities, says Wikipedia...See Wikipedia's entry on the 1st Century BC Venus de Medici:
Venus de' Medici - Wikipediaen.m.wikipedia.org -
I just found this video, and likely this artist learned through apprenticeship, and techniques may have been similar to ancient Greece/Rome. (An interesting question to ponder: was it an unbroken lineage of craftsmen or was the skill lost but then rediscovered during the Renaissance).
This is a must see video for any art lovers or artists:
Master sculptor Fred X. Brownstein recreates Antonio Canova’s sculpture “Venus” using Canova’s unique 200-year-old techniques over the course of 6 months.
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Bryan ...Just an idea...you could go with a solid color all over (either solid gold or medium gray (repainted) ....then you could use a "dry-brush" to lightly skim (with very little paint) or a lightly dabbed sea sponge (or any sponge with even texture) to touch on only the raised areas of the sculpture, using a much lighter color of gold (or a white if using gray as the base)... which would leave the recessed areas unpainted, and so that the lighter color would be contrasting with the darker tones in the deeper sections, and it would highlight the 3-dimensional sculpted form by creating more contrast with the light and shadow.
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Happy Birthday! dlippman
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I still maintain that ἐν ἀθανάτοις ἀγαθοῖς is "among undying goods" means "among undying pleasures" as in good=pleasure.
I am curious if it is the same word for "goods" that Aristotle uses when he talks about instrumental, intrinsic, and external "goods"?
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Godfrey wrote this very good post on grief over in another thread:
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Epicurus may have written about specific things as considered "eternal goods/pleasures" (besides friendship) but we only have a small portion of what he wrote.
And, I wanted to add that the reason that I brought up Plato and Aristotle here with regard to contemplation and living like the gods, is that this letter as a protreptic, presents a possiblility that Epicurus was intending to reach out and appeal to students from other schools of philosophy.
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Edit note: another reason (idea) that these "framings" were extending throughout various philosophical schools.
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Adding a deeper understanding to the closing paragraph: it is more than just poetic words to say "you shall live like a god among men" - philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle also presented their own ideas about "living like the gods" and so Epicurus was using that as a kind of framing to present his system.
Here are some of my notes from last night's Zoom:
The paragraph:
"Meditate therefore on these things and things akin to them night and day by yourself; and with a companion like to yourself, and never shall you be disturbed waking or asleep, but you shall live like a god among men. For a man who lives among immortal blessings is not like unto a mortal being." - Bailey translation
Breaking down the paragraph by some key phrases:
1. "meditate" - contemplate; study and practice
2. "on these things and things akin to them" -- everything in this letter should be contemplated:
- 1) the importance of loving and practicing wisdom, and knowing what actually brings happiness.
- 2) the correct understanding of the nature of the gods.
- 3) the correct understanding of the nature of death.
- 4) the three kinds of desires.
- 5) understanding everything that you accept or reject is in terms of health of the body and serenity of the soul. Judge every good thing by the standard of how that thing affects you.
- 6) not every pleasure is to be chosen and not every pain is always to be shunned. Make your decisions by measuring things side by side and looking at both the advantages and disadvantages.
- 7) self-reliance is a great good. Those who need luxury the least enjoy it the most, and everything natural is easily obtained whereas everything groundless is hard to get. Training yourself to live without luxury prepares you to more thoroughly enjoy luxury when it does come.
- 8 ) not the kind of pleasure of decadent people, but sober reasoning, searching out the cause of everything we accept or reject, and driving out opinions that cause the greatest trouble in the soul.
- 9) thus practical wisdom is more valuable than philosophy and is the source of every other excellence. Prudence is what develops the virtues. And the excellences grow up together with the pleasant life, and the pleasant life is inseparable from them.
- 10) for he holds that we are responsible for what we achieve, even though some things happen by necessity, some by chance, and some by our own power, because although necessity is not accountable he sees that chance is unstable whereas the things that are within our power have no other master.
3. "with a companion like to yourself" - this phrase more than hints at the highest form of friendship as described by Aristotle, which rather than utility or pleasure, is the kind of friendship based on a mutual appreciation of the virtues that the other party holds dear. It’s the people themselves and the qualities that they represent that provides the incentive for the two parties to be in each other’s lives. For Epicureans, wisdom and prudence are core values, as well as the ability to see and understand that there are natural causes at work in the world, rather than supernatural acts caused by gods. Contemplation, study, and practice must be done together with another person who is earnestly seeking to develop the virtues of wisdom and prudence that Epicurus taught.
4. "never shall you be disturbed waking or asleep" - you will be free from disturbance and confusion and which also is the nature of the gods.
5. "you shall live like a god among men" - for Epicurus this comes about by applying yourself to the contemplation, study, and practice of "these things and things akin to them" (everything in the Letter to Menoeceus) as well as experiencing a complete life which has more pleasures than pains.
6. "immortal blessings" - unending "goods" such as friendship - Vatican Saying 78: "The noble soul is devoted most of all to wisdom and to friendship — one a mortal good, the other immortal."
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I will soon add to this thread some clear references to Plato and Aristotle's ideas on the role of contemplation in philosophy as well as "living like the gods".
( Patrikios asked for a chart comparing Plato, Aristotle, and Epicurus and I will also work on that too).
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I'll be highlighting the last paragraph, but if you haven't recently read through the full Letter to Menoeceus, it can be found here:
Epicurus' Letter to Menoeceus - Epicureanfriends.comwww.epicureanfriends.com -
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I came across this observation from Numenius of Apamea who wrote the passage some 500 years after Epicurus and I thought it may be interesting topic for us to discuss. Epicurean school in antiquity was uniquely resistant to any change or innovation. When other schools went through distinct periods in their development - Middle Platonism, Neoplatonism, Early Stoa, Middle Stoa, 1st Academy, 2nd Academy, umpteen academy etc. - Epicureanism had never developed. No new ideas were introduced, nothing was really questioned or corrected, there were around 10 scholars in succession that we know of who run the school and yet no-one really deviated or influenced in any significant way the teachings of the school.
Both Cassius and Joshua have given very good posts above to address this critique of the Epicurean school, given by the Platonist Numenius.
It is actually a indication of the strength of the school that it didn't shift in it's basic tenets.
Just because we don't have anyone labeling any different time periods, doesn't mean that there weren't some subtle differences over time.
I would venture to say that there could likely be seen some differences between the "Early Epicureans" and the "Philodemus Epicureans" - a stronger emphasis on physics and canonics in the early time vs. a stronger emphasis on ethics by Philodemus. Perhaps Bryan might have something to say?
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About a month ago I experienced the loss of a pet, and I wrote down some notes after a number of days had passed. Here expressed in very abstract terms, and with some additional editing, are some thoughts about the "existential experience of grief".
1) The reality of death - seeing with one's own eyes the physical nature of death. Reflecting on this, one sees that all living beings including oneself will one day die - we are indeed mortal.
2) The tragedy, pain, and suffering of the deceased as they went through the process of dying - and the question: "Could the death have been prevented?".
3) The loss - coming to terms with the expectation that the loved one would always be near, and realizing that there had been an attitude of "possessing/owning". (Specific to this situation: "my baby kitty".)
4) Dealing with the day-to-day experience of not having the loved one in one's life - Adjusting. Remembering the good and happy moments from the past.
5) Re-directing love and attention - taking time to focus on and care for those who are still alive.
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Here is a modern psychology take on grief:
Five stages of grief - Wikipedia
Quote...those experiencing sudden grief following an abrupt realization (shock) go through five emotions: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.
Critics of the model have warned against using it too literally.
And which could also be said, that not everyone will experience these stages or in this order.
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Here is an article regarding Thomas Jefferson's "social duties":
Edmund Burke and Thomas Jefferson on Citizen's Duties - Journal of the American RevolutionIn 1790, when Edmund Burke published his Reflections on the Revolution in France, it triggered lots of backlash from people like Thomas Paine, Richard Price,…allthingsliberty.com
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